Complex effects = interesting gameplay

[AceSpade]

There are heroes with interesting skill combinations that improve you  ( artanis's  "quest" passive (cast 3 abilities on target  - get a lot bonus dmg and slow ), raynor's refreshing ult when hit in mark   and etc )

These bonus effects requires some  "skills" moves from players and pay them back  when these conditions are fulfilled

It means players have a reason to play better => players play better => game becomes better => happiness

 

Unfortunately not all heroes have interesting effects that encourage good actions from player.

 

I created a  list of heroes who encourage a high level of play :

GOOD ONES

STR:

Cow    ( omfg how many ppl misplay with charges  but it is good cause  if you play careful on cow - you can be extremely flexible and varied on the battlefield)

Dehaka ( system of upgrades is good cause you can build differently,   ofc now you choose between Q and W  at 1st and 2d upgrade, always do R 3d and E last  (that's cuase E sucks and ult not so usefull as Q and W , but still   ADAPTING is good thing that need little bit change to help E and R)

Alarak  (applying marks and consuming them as much as possible - signs of good player on alarak ,   doing this is very hard and worth it cause of high healing and bonus dmg)

AGI:

Zera (actually not so "smart" passive but if you use it right then you may deal much more dmg in teamfight,  sometimes there are ppl playing zera and finishing every enemy with aa    (12iq)

Darpa ( it is just good, you can deal more dmg or silence for longer duration if needed but after 1-2 attacks   that need some control)

Rancor ( Radar is very good thing in right hands,  also Q bonus dmg if enemy don't see you is kind of quest  (not that hard) but still smth)

Tosh  (if you god of microcontroll - you are god of stuns  (I mean just pressing W is ez but if tosh controlles spectres (split them and save from AOE and etc) then he will be unstoppable)

Tass (W and R are very hard to  perfect use  so if you know how to do it - they strongly influence the game   (but W need EVEN MORE buff then in beta)     (also long time ago I recommended to make Q active ability (I mean to click it) and mb bit longer cd and real dmg buff)

Ling ( has skillshot, units that deal real good dmg if you play safe with them (don't let die in aoe) and bonus ult effect on dogs)

Avenger ( making his passive global is interesting so this hero becomes even more interesting to play cause now you should remember about our HP, very interesting dps that make be a caster too )

Artanis  (passive + skillshots = interesting)

INT:

Raynor (hard skillshots and good mark mechanic with ult)

Egon (stacks on allys may seem very afk and not "high skill required" but if you compare good and bad players you will see HUUUGE difference in number of stacks)

Maar

Summers ( hero is very interesting but overbuffed,  I am w8ing smb show that it is true  (by playing summers perfectly) and make it be nerfed)

Medic ( R is very interesting and flexible  (engage, out, superheal))

Stukov (his R is very good cause if you catch if back -you heal,    also Q skillshot)

Narud

Psionic

.

 

 

I expect criticism of my list (I rly hope you will do it) and I will tell you why for example Kerrigan's E that stacks is not "high skill = high reward" type of ability and e t c

wanna discuss it 

if you will really prove that any other hero should be in list then I will add it  and vice versa.

 

 

I really hope the there will be much more heroes after some patches.

 

 

 

[MOTHER]

There will be more heroes in the future. But you must also consider that not all heroes are created equal and we must cater to all levels of play.

Also just because it is easy to be a good with a hero doesnt mean it is easy to be great with them. It all depends on the average skill level of the players on the game. Skill shots on heroes aren't the only skill ceiling on heroes.

[AceSpade]

1 hour ago, MOTHER said:

Skill shots on heroes aren't the only skill ceiling on heroes.

I know lol,  darpa has no skillshots but it is in list cause  the better player play it - the better hero is  and difference is huge

 

if we get for example ere or pyro - they don't need that much  to be good but if you play very very well - they will not do much more 

on ere good player can control enemies dmg with W and   if player positioning in fight just perfect it will not give big impact if you compare it to the awerage player

if you look at pyro -  very skillfull player will use the advantage if his bonus dmg from Q  but pyro actualy doesn't need it so difference is not huge again

 

some heroes just have very few space to misplay and these creates very strange situation like

Why  Good narud player should be less usefull than Average player on penthos?

 

Watch balrog E skill : gives allys lifesteal

what is interesting in this?

Lz hp: give aly spellresist

for what there is hp like this? 

why not make it more complex?

some heroes are just onebuttoned and this is making them not funny

mb they are fine or even good and balanced but

is there any fun playing them?

 

Watch at lz:

what can be done wrong on hero like this?

only not very good using of ult or not best positioning but that's not a lot

 

 

 

if you care of all lvl of play why you let ppl who just came to game and mb like hybrids pick maar?

Trying to satisfy everyone you can not satisfy most 

You have to choose the people you will rely on when making changes

And I do not understand why you do not choose those who are trying to become better

 

 

Don't talk about this anymore pls

this topic is to discuss  heroes but not the way you change or you think you should change  the game

I do not give a shap about it, i just wanna play game with others

so if you don't wanna discuss the list I suggested - don't type pls

 

 

[MOTHER]

Boring and fun are relative, Fell. A lot of people think playing Queen is boring as shap but in all her different versions she remained the most satisfying hero to play with to me at least. She's not difficult to be good with, but to really do well with her i think takes skill, map awareness, and team coordination.

I know that you dont like erek, but a good erek is very different from a pub Erek. Good erek uses his R to take out MvP or tank, pub erek ks. Good erek uses W to destroy enemy carry lane, pub erek has only 2 active abilities.

we are well aware of some of the boring heroic/passives you speak of btw, I definitely think they will be revisited. Look at what Adam did for example with boring ol' Tychus for example. Once properly balanced, the character is gonna be all kinds of badass.

 

 

 

[MOTHER]

Also complexity does not equal depth. Chess is a simple yet a deep as flob game. Chess is a better model to design games (and heroes in this case) after because they are simple to get into and hard to master. It's infinitely more interesting to those who understand why.

i also dont understand this attitude of yours "dont type please". Take that elsewhere.

[Aphonia]

7 hours ago, MOTHER said:

i also dont understand this attitude of yours "dont type please". Take that elsewhere.

You're feeling the oppression EU members have felt for years..hilariously when on the other side. Gotta admire these Ruskies - they got balls. 

[AceSpade]

 

I don't know why don't you understand so I will use simple sentences to explain because there is probability that our misunderstanding is result of my knowledge in Eng language

 

This topic is created to discuss how the skills of the player associated with his performance on different heroes

my point is that depending on the character of the differences between a strong player , an average player and a weak player can be huge, but can be negligible

and I am trying to give examples  (list) to prove it

and I am ready discuss it but nothing else

I don't wanna to discuss someone's preference in heroes or to condemn the game or how other players play

Theme of topic is not relative

It means that it is possible to come to a fairly reasonable conclusion

it is only my goal 

 

ofc I could just try to get some statistics and use it to prove everything but this is not interesting (and will not work cause there are no lot enough games)

 

 

 

only this in you messages is satisfying this thread and I bet with this statement 

18 hours ago, MOTHER said:

Good erek uses his R to take out MvP or tank, pub erek ks. Good erek uses W to destroy enemy carry lane, pub erek has only 2 active abilities.

 

You are right

there are at least 3 things that differ good player and bad player:

1.Positioning (Macro)

2.W   (Micro)

3. R in good times (Micro)

4.Micro plays with AA and Q using

 

 

Macro is always the same to some heroes  so in Model that we will use  Average player and Good player both know how to move on map, how to control map and e.t.c

so point 1 is pointless

2.  It is  not true that Average Ere player don't use W

This is easy to use and easy to understand how to use skill 

all you do - click at enemy when he is in range

and usually there are 1-2 ADK so  every Normal player understands that they should be used on them

3. R in good times is important

when you have enough dmg in team you know that you should use R for initiation

if you are not - you should use it on carry in fight

there always can be some exceptions and this may give some impact in fight

but this will be max 1.5 sec disable vs dmg or 1.5 sec disable vs tank  difference

 (you can compare it to  Tosh misses One W in enemy dps - it is usually not a lot)

you can feel this only if the teams are very close to each other    (I mean game is very very balanced)

it is not about pubs cause the are usually one sided

 

4. This is the most Huge difference between these 2 types of players

and this

I Give you simple example  (I will change nicks)

 

surPtab plays cain at mid vs  oPnios cain  , their macro is bit different (talents and start items) but this is not very important 

but their micro is very important so  player 1 has much less missclicks ,  always trying to catch player 2 on unsave moves to get dmg exchange advantage

he forces  enemy to go to base and lose some farm or keep farming but be in danger of dying

his Micro skills gives him huge advantage

but after really one sided MID fight  (other lanes had exact same number of minerals   (+-1000 for all team)

game balance moved to team number one but not a lot and they had very lot work to do to win the game 

(mid was like 0 4 in 20 minutes)

 

 

but this is fight between 2 players in mirror matchup with very different lvl of play 

ofc first one has more but it doesn't make that much sense when you cannot completely use your advantage  

(that's why cain is not in list)

it is disappearing

 

 

so we back to point 4 (for erequl)

ofc good player will win his lane vs not  good one

and mb he will have like 2000 more minerals and it is huge

but what it will give him?

ere almost has no any scales and that allows to play erequl   1-2 items behind enemies and feel fine

Result:

in fight you can only have bit more hp, one more good stun and that's all

that's not a lot 

watch at poor and good narud or maar or psionic  and you will see sooooooooo huge difference so you cant even compare it to difference between players on ere  

 

that's why I don't add ere in list