Talent Tree Rework

[MOTHER]

There's been talk on and off about how badly the talent system in AoS needs a rework (which I agree with), so let's discuss what we could replace it with?

 

 

I prefer having a more tree-like talent system like Lol's Mastery. But I also like DotA's in-game talent tree (with some hero unique talents perhaps) rather than a pre-game only talent tree.

 

So I think a combination of them could work for AoS.

 

You have a set amount of talent points and a large pre-game talent tree that branches out in different directions, where unlocking some talents will lock others (details of talents pending). You choose your talents pre-game and work your way up the tree.

 

But then in-game, we get rid of attribute skill points and replace them with talent points. So that during the game, as your xp levels up you gain access to more talent points that allow you to further climb up the talent tree that you chose pre-game.

 

Maybe at the highest tier, you unlock something totally unique to your hero (but this may be too much work, so sticking to general talents for now is better).

 

 

That's one way of going about it at least.

 

Thoughts?

[BlackXioN]

As long as its not what it used to be....Freaking like 60 talents to pick through and crap, there is not enough time before the game to pick everything you want plus changing this everytime you pick a new hero. I think this is one of the reasons it was changed

[ZERATUL]

It will most likely be like that I think, altho there are ways to fix problem ur talking about

[MOTHER]

As long as its not what it used to be....Freaking like 60 talents to pick through and crap, there is not enough time before the game to pick everything you want plus changing this everytime you pick a new hero. I think this is one of the reasons it was changed

 

Hence why talent picking should start pre-game and continue on in-game. Only difference is, when you choose a talent and begin branching out, you can't undo this ingame. Talent leveling and talent points become like leveling up a skill with skill points.

 

Agree about the 60 talents though. Ain't nobody got time for that.

[NoWaterJustIce]

I havent played DotA, but HotS talent system (which is a little more deep becuase it replaces items) might be worth looking into. Not to totally copy them but to take a a little and add it to what we have. Maybe a choice between a couple hero specific talents for each hero that might slightly change how they are played.

 

Example, Rancor either choosing to increased int damage on his snipe to turn him into more of a damage dealer, or choose increase stun duration to make him more support.

 

Or talents to make some of the bruisers more of a tank or more damagy

[Jaysi]

I'd love to have the HotS talent system, but I don't think it's a very realistic goal. The extra coding, balancing, and just initial development for hero specific talents(even one, as mentioned) would be huge. Ecko started working on blue gene to have a unique effect for every heroes ultimate, which was a pretty large undertaking and never finished(actually I'm curious how far 'started' that actually was...)

Edited February 3, 2017 by Jaysi

[SCV]

A card system based on class and you choose a card every 3 levels (inclusive)? Also keep in mind the limitation of the editor.

[Adamantium]

I havent played DotA, but HotS talent system (which is a little more deep becuase it replaces items) might be worth looking into. Not to totally copy them but to take a a little and add it to what we have. Maybe a choice between a couple hero specific talents for each hero that might slightly change how they are played.

 

Example, Rancor either choosing to increased int damage on his snipe to turn him into more of a damage dealer, or choose increase stun duration to make him more support.

 

Or talents to make some of the bruisers more of a tank or more damagy

 

So would those particular talents be completely different for each of the 60 heroes?

[BlackXioN]

Yup. sounds like you need to get to work man. No big deal just 180 unique talents for AOS, minimum.

[Adamantium]

Yup. sounds like you need to get to work man. No big deal just 180 unique talents for AOS, minimum.

 

Lol. Be back in a year then.

[BlackXioN]

Dehaka ult and viron ult should be global, just saying

[Adamantium]

Dehaka ult and viron ult should be global, just saying

 

Sounds like a good high tier talent upgrade

[BlackXioN]

heck yea man, viron spend constantly until killed or explode, building damage up infinitely, once he reaches the edge of the map he start spinning back in, still gaining damage.

[NoWaterJustIce]

So would those particular talents be completely different for each of the 60 heroes?

 

Of course, or they could be slightly less specific and there could be 10-20 or so and each character could choose one between 2-3 of them. So they would match with a role or something. :)

[Midknight]

Honestly, I think the current Talent system is simple, straight-forward, and good for the game as is, but could do with some minor tweaks. We don't want to overburden new players with dealing with a complicated talent tree but what we could do is adjust the current talents so that they have balanced scaling throughout the game. For currently, the flat bonuses like HP, Energy, and Damage are incredibly useful early-game, but become negligible by the end while percentage-based talents start off small and grow over time. I feel it would be better if these talents had both a fixed value and a percentage bonus. For example, the HP talent could be changed to 100 HP + 5% or, alternatively, 90 HP + 10/lvl + 5%. Also, maybe don't lock the talent choices as soon as you pick your hero. Every so often, I see people lament that they meant to pick one hero but someone grabbed it as they were about to click and they ended up with a random hero and a talent build that doesn't fit. Or maybe they were on the wrong saved talent build and didn't notice until after they picked their hero. It would be nice to be able to switch talents for a reasonable window after you've started play. Obviously not in the middle of the match, mind you, but at least up to the 2 minute mark or so. Or maybe you get until 2 minutes or when you leave the base, whichever happens first.

[johnnytherocker]

Honestly, I think the current Talent system is simple, straight-forward, and good for the game as is, but could do with some minor tweaks. We don't want to overburden new players with dealing with a complicated talent tree but what we could do is adjust the current talents so that they have balanced scaling throughout the game. For currently, the flat bonuses like HP, Energy, and Damage are incredibly useful early-game, but become negligible by the end while percentage-based talents start off small and grow over time. I feel it would be better if these talents had both a fixed value and a percentage bonus. For example, the HP talent could be changed to 100 HP + 5% or, alternatively, 90 HP + 10/lvl + 5%. Also, maybe don't lock the talent choices as soon as you pick your hero. Every so often, I see people lament that they meant to pick one hero but someone grabbed it as they were about to click and they ended up with a random hero and a talent build that doesn't fit. Or maybe they were on the wrong saved talent build and didn't notice until after they picked their hero. It would be nice to be able to switch talents for a reasonable window after you've started play. Obviously not in the middle of the match, mind you, but at least up to the 2 minute mark or so. Or maybe you get until 2 minutes or when you leave the base, whichever happens first.

 

Edited February 4, 2017 by johnnytherocker

[Midknight]

Wow... I forgot how pixelated that was. I should put up a better quality picture.

[johnnytherocker]

Wow... I forgot how pixelated that was. I should put up a better quality picture.

 

You can update the wiki yourself: Link

[MOTHER]

The following is the initial proposal for the talent tree rework

 

 

 

 

Brief:

 

 

In the new talent system, you start the game with 3 talent points. You gain an additional talent point at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18.

 

There are 3 talent trees; Offense, Defense, Utility.

 

Each talent tree has 6 tiers. Some tiers contain 1 talent, some contain 2, and some contain 3. But you must always choose only 1 of these to climb up that tree.

 

So it would look like this:

 

Offense Talent tree

 

Tier 1: Talent 1

Tier 2: Talent 2a and Talent 2b - CHOOSE ONE

Tier 3: Talent 3

Tier 4: Talent 4a and Talent 4b - CHOOSE ONE

Tier 5: Talent 5

Tier 6: Talent 6a, Talent 6b, and Talent 6c. - CHOOSE ONE

 

All these talents are passive.

 

However there are up to 3 active talents which are Chronoboost, Recover, and Recall. To access them you must put 1 talent point in the first tier of each of the 3 trees. So you don't necessarily have to have all 3 active talents. You could end up with only 2 of the 3.

 

All 3 active talents automatically upgrade whenever you reach tiers 3 and 6 of their respective trees.

 

Chronoboost for example, grants 8% Time at Tier 1, 16% at Tier 3, and 24% at tier 6 of the offense talent tree.

 

Recall for example, grants you the standard recall at tier 1, Transport (structures only) at Tier 3, and Advanced Transport (structures, units, and allied heroes) at Tier 6.

 

Recovery gives you current recovery, which upgrades into Reinvigoration at Tier 3 (stronger recovery), which finally upgrades to Fortify at Tier 6 (recovery and shields simultaneously)

 

The total number of talent points you can hope to gain and use in 1 game is 9; 3 at the start, and 6 you gain through out the game. Once you put a point in a talent, the point is locked and you can't go back. However, you can put points through the out the game.

 

The talents themselves will scale and reflect their tiers appropriately.

[ZERATUL]

Don't you dare remove fortify!

Bounty hunter might be too good, probobly reduce to like 1%

Not sure about Affinity but Catharsis is way too strong to only require 2 points.

Hope Fanatacism doesen't give too much or it will be retarded utility, not sure how is someone supposed to cath you.

You mean legend is an active talent or am I not seeing how it is supposed to work?

Should faith have some CD?

 

These are minor concerns rest of talents seem pretty good.

[Zorro]

Nice work Mother the new talent tree look rly promising.

Only thing i suggest is that you have max. cap of the % you get for the kills/assists on Bounty Hunter. Otherwise i think it would be to strong in certain situations.

[Head]

so "karma" is just straight up 33% damage resist, AND with reflect?

 

70% CDR? prodigy already breaks cap so thats 70+x% CDR

 

if you can only reach tier 6 at level 15 or 18 what is the point of getting extra bonus exp from hero assists? Rush them stat points?

 

this smells much like LoL, don't know if that is bad or good tho

 

Thanks for keeping game fresh

Edited March 28, 2017 by Head

[MOTHER]

Don't you dare remove fortify!

Bounty hunter might be too good, probobly reduce to like 1%

Not sure about Affinity but Catharsis is way too strong to only require 2 points.

Hope Fanatacism doesen't give too much or it will be retarded utility, not sure how is someone supposed to cath you.

You mean legend is an active talent or am I not seeing how it is supposed to work?

Should faith have some CD?

 

These are minor concerns rest of talents seem pretty good.

 

I'm not removing Fortify, but Fortify is now the final tier of Recovery.

 

There will be a maximum of 3 active talents but everything else on that sheet is a passive talent. If you climb up to the top of the Defense Tree (Tier 6), your Recovery is replaced with a variation of Fortify.

 

Same thing with Haste and Recall. But you need to put at ONE point in each of the trees to access the 3 active talents, and you can only upgrade them by going up the tree. Each of the active talents has 3 variations: Basic, Mid Tier, and Top tier.

 

Re: Bounty Hunter

 

I'm not particularly good with numbers so please always assume that the numbers are placeholders. Either reducing the % down to 1 like you said, or adding a cap- Both could work.

 

Re:Affinity/Catharsis

 

Can be shifted around or balanced as required.

 

Re: Fanaticism

 

Meant to give 1 MS speed buff (like 10-15% tops), and not for every allied around you being attacked. The MS buff is meant to remain until you and your allies are no longer in combat after X seconds.

 

Re: Legend

 

Is a passive. You get a small about of resistance that scales for every allied hero around you. For example, you gave 4% physical/spell armor per allied hero, so the max you can gain is 20%.

 

Re:

 

Faith only applies to Base regen and not regen from items. (in other words - Regen you get from STR attribute only)

 

@Head

 

No, because you are never harmed by the damage dealt to you. It is effectively a damage reduction (33% maybe to high so 20 would more reasonable). but it only reflects full damage to enemies at melee range and it gets less and less the further away you are from the hero. At Max range you would be received something like 5% or less of the reflected damage. The damage reflected is after mitigation not before (even though your hero is NOT harmed).

 

Re: Transcendence

 

Pay no heed to the numbers used they are placeholders, but the idea behind this high tier utility to give supports or spellcasters the option to "transcend" the rules. So breaking the cap and reaching 70-80% seems befitting.

 

if you can only reach tier 6 at level 15 or 18 what is the point of getting extra bonus exp from hero assists? Rush them stat points?

 

 

That's actually something I overlooked, and will reconsider reshuffling or replacing it.

 

To be honest, since we're working on many things at the same, I did take a hard look at other mobas' talent systems, and adapted what I could from LoL/DotA/HotS. I also think that the system is a little more similar to LoL than the others, but it will balance out. Remember this proposal is a starting point and in time these concepts will evolve into stuff that is much more uniquely AoS.

 

One thing to note that, that all these talents are meant to scale straight up or conditionally (like Wanderer). So the numbers that will likely go in won't be big starting off but will remain useful through the game. Talents are meant to cater to your own playstyle and preferred hero. They are not meant and must not replace items (especially early game!) or eclipse your own abilities.

 

Which is why you will likely end up only ever climbing 1 talent tree per game, with maybe an extra point or two to spare on the other trees.

[ZERATUL]

The thing I don't understand about legend is that you said "for few seconds". Does this mean it has some kind of cd?

[MOTHER]

Nah it means, the effect refreshes everytime you or allies are attacked but it does not stack with itself.

 

So it gives you an MS boost of 15% for example for 2-3 seconds, and will keep freshing as long as you or nearby allies are under attack. It then lingers for 2-3 seconds after the last attack against your heroes.