Queen Rework

[MOTHER]

A replay of Apache owning (nothing new here) with Queen was brought to my attention, along with requests to nerf Queen. I do not think Queen is OP, she is very strong but can be countered. Apache owned early game but he also ended up with second most deaths in this game because Queen does fall off.

 

However, I also want to be as objective as possible because as much I love the hero, I don't want this to turn into a Red Hydra/Raynor situation.

 

I've thought this through and I think the following balance changes are acceptable compromises without rendering queen clawless and useless, because Queen is not a hard support like medic. She is a hybrid pusher/support hero that can be quite dangerous. I believe all heroes should be threatening and Queen IMHO has always been a very well rounded and versatile hero. So here are my suggestions for tweaks to quell the angry mob (figuratively speaking) for Adam's consideration. Blue is a buff, red is a nerf, green is a neutral/tweak.

 

General:

 

Starting STR increased from 32 to 34.

Starting AGI reduced from 32 to 30.

 

HP - Biomass

 

Remove active. Queen can no longer pick up Biomass without moving over them.

For every 100 Biomass, Queen regenerates 0.75% Max Biomass per second (2.25% Max Biomass per second at full biomass [300]) from regenerating 1% Max Biomass.

 

Q - Baneling Strike

 

Cooldown from 18/16/14/12 to 20/18/16/14.

Baneling movement speed reduced by 5% off creep.

Can no longer target or damage structures.

 

E - Creep Tumor

 

Max Creep Tumors increased from 2/3/4/5 to 3/4/5/6.

Creep Tumor now has 3/4/5/6 charges with a fixed at all levels 45s replenish time between charges and a 5s internal cooldown between each charge use.

Creep Tumors now increase the movement speed of Queen and her minions by 35% from 25%.

Creep tumors now require 1/2/3/4 AA hits to be destroyed.

 

R - Tyrant Ultralisk

 

Cooldown timer starts after Timmy is killed or expires, instead of after being cast.

Increase bounty to 100 from 50(ish).

Cooldown increased to 160/140/120 from 120.

Timmy no longer gains "special features" per level (+65 dmg vs structures/+25% Movement Speed/+50% Dmg resist).

Timmy gains incremental damage resistance of 20%/35%/50%.

On creep, Timmy now gains an additional 15% movement speed, 15% weapon speed, and 15% weapon damage.

 

 

----

 

With these changes, I believe Queen is more manageable without killing the hero. By destroying her creep tumors, you can really limit her power and by zoning her out from claiming her biomass you can further limit her reign of terror. This also ensures that her E skill remains relevant at all stages of the game instead of just during laning as her abilities need creep to unlock their full potential.

 

Note: That these changes are designed to be taken together as a whole. Please tell me what you think.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Jessika

[LameDude]

I watched that game. I'm pretty sure the protoss were throwing unbelievably hard due to poor communications and that a lot of the kills 'he made' were simply lasthits done by his SHM (wtf did that item even give him other than ks powers Aiur would be jealous of). Meanwhile the protoss carry was farming just fine and as it came to a point where scaling was relevant, queen became utterly useless.

 

 

As I've said in other threads, queen doesn't need a rework or rebalancing. Fix people's issues with her by addressing the general balance.

[MOTHER]

 

 

As I've said in other threads, queen doesn't need a rework or rebalancing. Fix people's issues with her by addressing the general balance.

 

I generally agree with this sentiment. The proposal in the OT came out of me pondering a 'what if queen really needed nerfs/a rework" scenario.

[Apache]

A replay of Apache owning (nothing new here) with Queen was brought to my attention, along with requests to nerf Queen. I do not think Queen is OP, she is very strong but can be countered. Apache owned early game but he also ended up with second most deaths in this game because Queen does fall off.

 

However, I also want to be as objective as possible because as much I love the hero, I don't want this to turn into a Red Hydra/Raynor situation.

 

I've thought this through and I think the following balance changes are acceptable compromises without rendering queen clawless and useless, because Queen is not a hard support like medic. She is a hybrid pusher/support hero that can be quite dangerous. I believe all heroes should be threatening and Queen IMHO has always been a very well rounded and versatile hero. So here are my suggestions for tweaks to quell the angry mob (figuratively speaking) for Adam's consideration. Blue is a buff, red is a nerf, green is a neutral/tweak.

 

General:

 

Starting STR increased from 32 to 34.

Starting AGI reduced from 32 to 30.

 

HP - Biomass

 

Remove active. Queen can no longer pick up Biomass without moving over them.

For every 100 Biomass, Queen regenerates 0.75% Max Biomass per second (2.25% Max Biomass per second at full biomass [300]) from regenerating 1% Max Biomass.

 

Q - Baneling Strike

 

Cooldown from 12 to 15.

Baneling movement speed reduced by 5% off creep.

Can no longer target or damage structures.

 

E - Creep Tumor

 

Max Creep Tumors increased from 2/3/4/5 to 3/4/5/6.

Creep Tumor now has 3/4/5/6 charges with a fixed at all levels 45s replenish time between charges and a 5s internal cooldown between each charge use.

Creep Tumors now increase the movement speed of Queen and her minions by 35% from 25%.

Creep Tumors no longer grant vision.

When enemy heroes walk on creep, they are revealed (not area around them) to Queen and her allies. Does not detect invisible heroes.

 

R - Tyrant Ultralisk

 

Cooldown timer starts after Timmy is killed or expires, instead of after being cast.

Cooldown increased to 140/130/120 from 120.

Timmy no longer gains "special features" per level (+65 dmg vs structures/+25% Movement Speed/+50% Dmg resist).

Timmy gains incremental damage resistance of 20%/35%/50%.

On creep, Timmy now gains an additional 15% movement speed, 15% weapon speed, and 15% weapon damage.

 

 

----

 

With these changes, I believe Queen is more manageable without killing the hero. By destroying her creep tumors, you can really limit her power and by zoning her out from claiming her biomass you can further limit her reign of terror. This also ensures that her E skill remains relevant at all stages of the game instead of just during laning as her abilities need creep to unlock their full potential.

 

Note: That these changes are designed to be taken together as a whole. Please tell me what you think.

 

Q - Baneling Strike

No longer targets unit, baneling strike targets area. No other changes

[MOTHER]

The way the banelings spawns and they way they have been balanced in terms of damage and speed entails that they are target unit. You have to rework the entire spell if you change it to target point and that risks opening an entirely different can of worms.

 

Zagara's in HotS for example shoots banelings in a line. That works there. In AoS, Queen combos Q into R over E. This is her shtick, if you rework Q you must preserve her 'shtick' IMO.

 

Making them even slower off creep but faster on creep, and increasing the cooldown slightly should suffice if they are really problematic. Reducing the biomass scaling on Q and slightly improving INT scaling is another option.

 

But you can take away Queen's early game offense without compensation. She does not need hard nerfs, at worst she needs tweaks.

[Jaysi]

Making banelings target point could be a buff in certain situations...

 

Consider a situation where there is an objective/path/tower safety/low hp ally to the side of you and an enemy hero, you can now lead your banelings to cut them off/force them to take damage/zone them out etc, whereas before they would just strafe the banelings. This would possibly weaken her banelings in laning/straight on use, but would raise her skill cap.

 

Not sure how that would make her combo less effective?

 

I guess it might depend on how you set the banelings to function then, do they only explode at target point and/or when they expire or do they explode also when coming into contact with an enemy?

Edited January 11, 2017 by Jaysi

[SCV]

I think the biomass scaling on queen's abilities are just too much. There are many games where queen died at least 5 times during laning phase and still do damage late game even without items. I think it would be better to nerf all the biomass scaling on all her abilities and shift them to int instead.

[ZERATUL]

Thats most likely best way other idea is to basicly making her rly strong on creep but weak when not on it.

[MOTHER]

I think the biomass scaling on queen's abilities are just too much. There are many games where queen died at least 5 times during laning phase and still do damage late game even without items. I think it would be better to nerf all the biomass scaling on all her abilities and shift them to int instead.

 

The biomass scaling of Queen's abilities is 100% tied to the biomass cost of each ability. You must not nerf the biomass scaling without buffing the biomass cost!

 

 

-----------------------

 

Another idea possibly worth considering is making it so that only heroes and towers now, allied or otherwise, have a 100% chance to drop biomass samples upon death. But each biomass sample grants 10 biomass points instead of 1 and replenishes her for 100% of Max Biomass instead of 10%.

 

This way Queen's biomass does not rely on killing creeps, and incentivizes her to go after heroes and towers. The numbers may be off, and some other peripheral stuff may need finetuning. But this way she isn't as "braindead" anymore.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Jessika

[LameDude]

She's not a hero hunter, she's a split pusher and sometimes team-fighter. Better then to make biomass only droppable from last hits, kills and assists.

 

Still I think she will seem much less valuable if you increase the relative values of other heroes (like greelus) and add more support heroes.

 

Also rescaling the cost-effectiveness of biomass expenditure with int-scaling is still fine. If you were to spawn 1 baneling for every 10 biomass now, have it be 1 per 15 (exaggerated example) and add int-scaling damage to make up for the lost damage of the missing banelings, etc etc.

 

As I do not have current numbers of EHP for wavecreeps, neutrals and heroes with certain talents/items and the relative damage-output of other heroes it's hard for me to give you actual numbers to work with.

Edited January 12, 2017 by LameDude

[Apache]

In AoS, Queen combos Q into R over E. This is her shtick, if you rework Q you must preserve her 'shtick' IMO.

If you make her banelings target an area you don't remove her combo. This combo would still be highly effective. You Q over the area you R at. It is no different than playing vorpal.

 

What it does prevent is the enemy spending the next 10 seconds running backwards just to dodge one spell.. Instead they have a choice to make an attempt at dodging the damage and continue their aggression.

 

Making banelings target point could be a buff in certain situations...

 

It is not meant to be a nerf, only a dynamic change to require some skill to play the hero.

[John]

Just 2 questions.

 

1) Does banelings get resistance from overlord?

2) What heroes during the lane phase can kill all / most of her banlings before they hit the creep wave in.

 

 

Also I would like to point out another change that currently benefits queen, the change of transport, Obviously it aids any pusher, but let's face it, which pusher do we have banned / picked every game?

Edited January 12, 2017 by John

[LameDude]

1) no.

2) anything with an area of effect spell.

[MOTHER]

@Apache

 

No, I got that it, I am just saying the way the banelings currently spawn and move, their speed and lifespan, has all been balanced around the spell being target unit and to change the spell to target point would require the change of other variables and testing.

 

@John

 

That could be due to a lot of things. Like Queen being meta now, trending, other pushers being weak, unpopular among ih places (we have several Queen lovers for example but no Gara).

 

The change to transport isn't an argument against Queen, please let's not go there.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Jessika

[LameDude]

if anything transport needs a lower cooldown.

[ZERATUL]

Transport should have an option to be canceled and if you do cancel it reduce cd by half or sth like that

[MOTHER]

Transport should replace recall for everyone and a new T3 support talent takes its place!

[LameDude]

transport should be the active ability of an item for 50 minerals that gets consumed in the process and has a cooldown of 60 seconds, targetted near any allied building.

[Jaysi]

Bring back Star Treks!

[MOTHER]

transport should be the active ability of an item for 50 minerals that gets consumed in the process and has a cooldown of 60 seconds, targetted near any allied building.

 

 

Anyway, OT:

 

TRAITORS ALL OF YOU! GOD (Adam) SAVE THE QUEEN!

Edited January 12, 2017 by Jessika

[Dafuq]

I believe this is the game you're talking about:

 

youtube:

 

Although Apache's Queen did the most damage IN and OUT, I just wanted to point out that he had an egon and a ghost (both with external drive and dial) to support him. Ofcourse, queen has her own heals and he went tanky int so queen had a LOT of sustain and support. Then there's the Apache factor, I mean, he made ihan tass work...

 

Nevertheless, Queen + Egon still lost that game and were losing from the very beginning. I also noticed Queen rarely gets a mention in draft unless Mother is in the lobby.

 

Therefore, I don't think any hard nerfs are warranted.

[MOTHER]

Even with full biomass, Queen does not deal enough damage to clear a creep wave after about 10-12 minutes. Without INT, or specifically Gravity, her Q is rendered useless quickly after the laning phase actually because of the creep scaling.

 

Queen's R is her most powerful asset to the team. Her creeps have been nerfed to the ground. Her heal is a shadow of its former buffed cast range and target point glory, and even her Q is no where near as powerful as it once was.

 

The scaling of her Q, W, and R is tied to their cost/current biomass consumed. This basically means that consecutive castings of Q, W, or R in quick succession is inherently weakened unless you are able to fill up your energy fast enough between the casts (cerebro/soul engine only). A long time ago, Queen's Q was able to be cast at full power back to back always. Now you have to choose the order of spells when at full energy. Do I heal first because my team needs more health than if I Q first? Do I want Timmy to be at his strongest? Then I must R first before I Q.

 

The point I am trying to make is that Queen's energy consumption and generation isn't something to overlook. You can't take something away without giving her something back. Historically speaking, current Queen is the most balanced she has ever been, in large part to the genius biomass mechanic that Whale introduced.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Jessika

[ZERATUL]

Actually only change queen needs atm is less biomass impact on abilitys and more INT so you actually need to do something. Nothing else should be done cuz I also think its better to buff some heroes that are supposed to counters for her.

[John]

2) anything with an area of effect spell.

 

Nonsense, I just made a test game vs Apache, and tried the following heroes.

 

Kerrigan Q, doesn't prevent lane from getting killed, Kill's like 30% of banlings + runs out of mana in 2 waves

Jackson E, doesn't kill banelings, not one.

Greelus, kills a good amount of them but mana problems

Artanis, Banlings doesn't arrive at once so U can take out like 50%, but constantly poked in lane.

Virgil, as expected it was really shap against queen.

Bio, the burst from bio doesn't do enough damage since you have to much sustain, Also there's nothing he can do about ur banling bust either.

Pyro, E wasn't close enough to do anything about the banlings.

 

Summers, probably best result, problem is that the hero is very situational and has a heap or hard counters, also the summers needs to be significantly better as a player to handle the queen.

I didn't test MAAR, because I just thought about him, but his big AOE thing might just cut it, however maar is like 5x harder to play good with.

 

This might sound a bit arrogant, but I think the main reason queen isn't played by "tier 1 players" is because the hero is so easy to play decent that your team is better of giving it to a less skilled player.

 

@Sharigan, lately queen has been banned or fp every game, regardless if mother is in the lobby or not.

 

I think the main problem is that there's no real hard counter to the hero. Which could have been fine if he was a pusher only. However he's a really good team fighter too.

[ZERATUL]

Medic is best atm but too bad its a support hero lol