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Base Turtling OP


ShoopMan
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A team can get stomped to oblivion during lane phase, be down almost 50% in CS and because the base structure is so strong, as long as they follow the brainless/skilless tactic of hugging base towers as a group(and not do anything too stupid) they can stall the game out long enough to to farm up over a 1 hour game to even up the CS difference.

 

I can't remember how many games i've played that have turned out this way, but it seems remarkably difficult in AoS to finish games. It's so difficult that people can exploit this pretty hard and completely negate the fact that they got stomped on during lane phase.

 

The ramp terrain leaves the attackers in complete darkness and gives the defense a huge advantage. Attackers are usually fighting against opponents they can't see.

 

The main base is so close to the towers that it makes taking down towers that much more difficult, one pull from the defenders and your dead, that would probably be enough to make the attackers flee from a 5v4.

 

http://i.imgur.com/NEyNkM2.jpg 350 to 560 CS

 

In this game Brown team got stomped.

Brown's top got rofl stomped to the point where they were just proxying the waves, they just had to flee or feed nothing they could do to defend.

Brown's mid got pushed to death by queen.

Browns bot also completely pushed and lost.

 

All lanes completely dominated, all lane towers lost for brown while all towers still up for green, all players on green got free roam, brown team heavily down in CS.

 

For the next hour Turtling and farming.

 

http://i.imgur.com/Pp0cDlM.jpg

 

Half an hour later of turtling Brown is able to catch up in CS.

 

http://i.imgur.com/XESBIhO.png 1070 to 1080 CS

 

Brown ends up winning.

 

http://i.imgur.com/ylZnAyM.png

 

 

P.S I know this isn't the best example because it's pubs, but still.. I believe it demonstrates how absurdly imbalanced base defense is.

Edited by ShoopMan
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In the defense of brown they had better late game heroes than did, your hero base was more early mid game hence why you dominated hard early. Some comps are harder to push against which is fine in my opinion. this is where a PULL would have come in handy or split pushing, etc. I would say 80% of the time the team who dominates the game early usually wins. The other 20% is when the other team gets cocky and get team wiped or screws around to much. Also if you DONT KEEP PUSHING THE LANE INTO THERE TOWER THEY WONT GET CREEP KILLS. In an IH environment I rarely see this unless there is a maar on the other team.

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I think for the tier 3 ramps, you should allow wards to be placed on that little high ground ledge again. Having sight of the high ground made a HUGE difference against people turtling, and frankly even if you have sight it's still difficult.

 

And this is a bit off topic but...could we re-introduce the old 3 ward Omniscience?

 

Whether it is reverted back to it or made into another item I don't really care, I just prefer 3 wards over 1 TS Ward like 90% of the time.

Edited by taznkid
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In the defense of brown they had better late game heroes than did, your hero base was more early mid game hence why you dominated hard early. Some comps are harder to push against which is fine in my opinion. this is where a PULL would have come in handy or split pushing, etc. I would say 80% of the time the team who dominates the game early usually wins. The other 20% is when the other team gets cocky and get team wiped or screws around to much. Also if you DONT KEEP PUSHING THE LANE INTO THERE TOWER THEY WONT GET CREEP KILLS. In an IH environment I rarely see this unless there is a maar on the other team.

 

That's exactly the point, they had late game Hero's, they had late game comp without any early game support which is why this is a lost game in most mobas. The reason why Late game heros are balanced is because when they don't have the support to make it to late game it is a lost cause. In this game they didn't have the support, it was a clear loss, except that it wasn't .. because they had mount Everest to hide under(A.K.A base strength in AoS) and green team simply couldn't penetrate.

 

I hate to compare AoS to other mobas but if you saw this same situation in LoL/Dota, TeamA with all towers up vs teamB with all lane towers gone, 350 cs vs 560 cs 25 minutes in, R.I.P, complete stomp. In no way should this have been a win.

 

 

>Also if you DON'T KEEP PUSHING THE LANE INTO THERE TOWER THEY WONT GET CREEP KILLS.

 

Problem is you can't push lanes like you can in other mobas.. because of the Ramp, and the fact that the tower can hit you before you can even see it. You put yourself in a ton of risk of being pulled/caught/instagibbed because you are in the dark, the defense has absurd advantage and complete control. Edit: Misread thought you meant keep pushing, instead of stop pushing.

 

I don't want to compare mobas but since this is (Imo) such a big problem that allows for very cheesy tactics(Skillless Turtling) that some other mobas have prevented, take a look at the base here,

Notice Spacing in the base, allows for the defense to have an advantage, but not an impenetrable defense. Edited by ShoopMan
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>Also if you DON'T KEEP PUSHING THE LANE INTO THERE TOWER THEY WONT GET CREEP KILLS.

 

Problem is you can't push lanes like you can in other mobas.. because of the Ramp, and the fact that the tower can hit you before you can even see it. You put yourself in a ton of risk of being pulled/caught/instagibbed because you are in the dark, the defense has absurd advantage and complete control.

 

I don't think you understand what he's saying. I think we're all in agreement that the ramp/site advantage is huge and needs to be changed in someway. Black is saying don't push your lane creeps so that if they turtle, they can't get CS. Your team can jungle the neutrals and bosses and push up your CS and experience advantage while they have to unturtle to gain anything. If they start going out further to try and reach the wave then punish them. If they keep turtling, eventually you're going to have such a large item and level difference that you can easily push a tower down.

 

Another thing is, you don't always want to take a barracks if you just pushed a t3 tower down. If you know you're not going to be able to push another tower down soon then you might as well not kill a barracks because all that is going to do is push a single lane and give them CS. Try to only take the barracks if you can get 2+ lanes barracks.

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I don't think you understand what he's saying. I think we're all in agreement that the ramp/site advantage is huge and needs to be changed in someway. Black is saying don't push your lane creeps so that if they turtle, they can't get CS.

 

Another thing is, you don't always want to take a barracks if you just pushed a t3 tower down. If you know you're not going to be able to push another tower down soon then you might as well not kill a barracks because all that is going to do is push a single lane and give them CS. Try to only take the barracks if you can get 2+ lanes barracks.

 

Ah I see, I misread. Yeah thats true, you could just freeze all lanes. But it still doesn't solve the problem, it's straight cheesy and a poor mechanic, why resort to all this play around dealing with cheese when you can eliminate cheese?

 

Also lets think about the pub experience too because thats the majority, its not going to work in pubs you can't just teach everyone all these tactics to combat cheese(many don't listen or don't get it), of course in IH you could but in pubs? it results in a very poor experience revolving around a unbalanced mechanic.

Edited by ShoopMan
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I've experienced this at times in pubs.. But as long as you have a decent team and work together, you can just hole them up, take their neutrals, and eventually have a huge advantage. If they come back.. I'd say it's because your team didn't press the advantage enough to end it asap.

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There were already 2-3 topics about this and nothing has been done about it, even tho everyone agrees. I do think people are sometimes scared for no reason to easy dive, however most of the times you cant.

Few heroes that even if you get overlord it will be almost impossible to push:

Maar, cow, kuradel..

There are 2 ways to fix this:

1)Completely change how the base works(make all t3's more separated from each other, and artifact also needs to be more behind, plus highground needs to be much lower.

2)If these are too hard to make thers alt ways:

-make creeps stronger somehow

-make that creeps don't meet EXACTLY like on the highground, just before the tower.

-remove highground at t3's

 

Also, would you consider nerfing that artifact a bit, its basicly impossible(unless u have lot of items) to finish a game without killing at least 2 t3's and supressors. Much more prefered old one, which dealt bit more dmg, but slower attack speed. Maybe also considering nerfing its shield regen.

 

Why is this such a big problem?

-Game becomes so annoying knowing that you completely outplayed enemy team early/mid game, and then a hero like maar just defends without any problems.

-This now leads that all carrys are getting free farm, and eventually they will outscale you if they have like a nova. Kuradel is also a huge problem, not only can't you push, but thers no way to dive enemy team, cuz u will all just get stunned and bursted down so fast.

-Most of the inhouses I played are 50+minutes, even with ranged carry as nova, cuz this exact reason.

 

 

 

 

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I think they buffed artifact specifically for the reason one team could be winning the whole game and then get team wiped one time late game and the other time wins in one push, kill one t3 then tank artifact and kill. I actually don't mind the buffed artifact as it . Other MOBAS you have to kill all 3 towers in this one you only need two. Also nerfing this aspect will only make pushers stronger than they already are. The only thing that stops a pusher is the fact t3's are on a hill and the defender has advantage. I think you would honestly have to change the game all the way through to make this effective.

Edited by BlackXioN
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I think they buffed artifact specifically for the reason one team could be winning the whole game and then get team wiped one time late game and the other time wins in one push, kill one t3 then tank artifact and kill. I actually don't mind the buffed artifact as it . Other MOBAS you have to kill all 3 towers in this one you only need two. Also nerfing this aspect will only make pushers stronger than they already are. The only thing that stops a pusher is the fact t3's are on a hill and the defender has advantage. I think you would honestly have to change the game all the way through to make this effective.

To be honest ur post doesent make much sense. In first part of the post when ur talking about the artifact, u say it was buffed cuz if some team is winning whole game and that when they lose 1 teamfight they lose base. So, if we are going by your logic that other team is losing, how is it possible that they win a teamfight, and how can they finish a game just from that teamfight, its impossible unless they already killed t3's, which they couldnt cuz they are losing whole game. Also what was stopping winning team to win a game, well answer is simple, turtling at t3, with hero as maar or kuradel.

 

Well I know in lol u dont need to kill all t3's to be able to win, idk about dota or other mobas.

 

Defender has too big of an advantage :)

Edited by ZERATUL
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well it is a team game not a 1v5

 

You never really included a conclusion to your post, so I don't know what your stance is. Yes there are ways to deal with the cheesiness, but rather than deal with it we should honestly just eliminate such a cheesy unbalanced mechanic.

 

Yes there are ways to deal with turtlers like you said, freeze lanes.. however that takes much more effort and coordination on your part all to counter a brainless tactic of turtling. It's brainless it's skilless yet it's extremely effective, so effective that it can completely turn lost games into victories, and requires you to go the extra mile to combat. It's without a doubt a poor mechanic and stalls games out.

 

Why is this such a big problem?

-Game becomes so annoying knowing that you completely outplayed enemy team early/mid game, and then a hero like maar just defends without any problems.

-This now leads that all carrys are getting free farm, and eventually they will outscale you if they have like a nova. Kuradel is also a huge problem, not only can't you push, but thers no way to dive enemy team, cuz u will all just get stunned and bursted down so fast.

-Most of the inhouses I played are 50+minutes, even with ranged carry as nova, cuz this exact reason.

 

I agree, if bases were this strong in lol/dota, there would be very little point for bruisers early-mid game heros, in fact every lane would be some sort of hard AD/AP Carry. If you know that there is a mechanic in the game that can allow a carry hero to easily and consistently reach end game then a winning player would always play a hard carry. (yes I know there are ways to counter turtling but the base in AoS currently accentuates this sort of carry meta, and always drags out games.)

Edited by ShoopMan
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I think we're all missing the point that we would love to change the bases. One of the main reasons they haven't been changed is because no developer is good with terrain. ECKO did almost all of the terrain for the game and it has been vastly unchanged since he created it.

 

Obviously there are a few other ideas like changing where the creep meet, I'm not sure how that would be implemented but maybe Adam had an idea.

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How about when the game hits 30 minutes a big nuke goes off and kills everyone, therefore game is over. Winner will be selected from most kills.

 

To actually have a time limit would be something to test. Might make games more exciting with faster pace or a more serious approach. Could give win to the most towers downed and then to kills if that is a tie.. Something like that

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I think we're all missing the point that we would love to change the bases. One of the main reasons they haven't been changed is because no developer is good with terrain. ECKO did almost all of the terrain for the game and it has been vastly unchanged since he created it.

 

Obviously there are a few other ideas like changing where the creep meet, I'm not sure how that would be implemented but maybe Adam had an idea.

 

Well if no one is good at making terrain, then perhaps you can implement some sort of smart mechanic which heavily counters this brainless cheesing that does not require the winning team to go to any great lengths themselves.

 

A couple of thoughts.

 

1) Increase the amount of gold given to the entire team upon killing each T1 T2 tower, perhaps double it or even triple it, If base structure is going to be that strong a dominating team will need more aid.

 

2) When a lanes T1 T2 turret is down, a invulnerable permanent ward will activate on the T3 ramp giving the winning team sight.

 

3) Dragon/Baron control needs to be stronger, If enemy team has lost all T1/T2 towers, when the winning team kills Dragon, Dragon will spawn for winning team and attempt to siege enemy base.(T3 towers will always prioritize the seiging dragon no matter what.)

 

4) Decrease the range of the T3 turrets and Base.(questionable)

 

5) Make creeps stronger.(Probrably a very bad idea because you want to combat the problem without affecting other parts of the game.)

 

6) The base is too close to the T3 towers, it is literally watching their backs. Turret should perhaps only activate if all T3 have fallen.

Edited by ShoopMan
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When you have khyrack queen penthos with raynor as long range, how can you not end the game after all t3 are down? When you are ahead, you guys probably decide roam instead of focusing on end game. With that much of early game, taking boss at 40 min should be easy, then you can tower dive to end game.

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When you have khyrack queen penthos with raynor as long range, how can you not end the game after all t3 are down? When you are ahead, you guys probably decide roam instead of focusing on end game. With that much of early game, taking boss at 40 min should be easy, then you can tower dive to end game.

 

I urge you to not focus directly on the example given, but rather discuss about your feelings on the topic. It's not constructive to nitpick on the example and only serves to derail the thread imo.

 

Btw T3 towers were not down if you look at the photos, T3 turtling is exactly what we are talking about in this thread, and the imbalance surrounding it. T3 towers are the actual towers in their base, im not sure if you made a typo or just did not look at the pictures correctly.

 

And.... Could still be fun...

 

Yeah sure, but it was sarcasm. No one actually wants to change the fundamentals of how a Moba is played out. That's a good way to lose the majority of your player base. But sure, could be a cool mess around mode like "-wtf" mode in Dota.

Edited by ShoopMan
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I feel about 90% of the time aome one successfully carries out a mid/early game comp and the lose to a late game comp its about arrogance and complacency. Most of the time they farm more kills to buff their ego when they should focus objectives and push high ground after the next item/ulti power spike or after taking levi... this has been happening a long time its mainly poor execution.

 

Yes some times certain heroes can stall regardless and i think they should be looked at. but overall its mainly a misplay by the winning team

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