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Gara


hbogyt
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The current Gara appears to be good in all phases of the game. Is not extremely item dependent and scales well with items as well. This hero should be auto-autobanned for the upcoming tournament and has its ranged reduced to 4 or less.

 

In laning, armed with Pendant, Gara drains your mana fast, does a shap ton of sustained damage, and has a nuke+stun to boot.

 

In late game, if built DPS, Gara can be equivalent to a tank and a DPS. The SCV are way stronger than the Queen's Ultra even.

 

Normally, a tank has CC or some damage annoying enough that the opposing team can not simply ignore you, but you're also very tanky, so that they can't get rid of you fast enough.

 

This presents a dilemma to the enemy -- attack you and allow an opening for your team's own damage dealers, or ignore you and let you have your way with them. Either option renders them vulnerable.

 

Gara's SCVs fulfill this function perfectly. Their damage adds up if you ignore them, but killing them diverts firepower away from the enemy team. Direct AA kills 1 per shot, true, but DPS gara can shoot 1 new SCV for everyone you kill because everyone is shooting with a weapon speed of roughly 0.45. Explosive can't kill those SCVs fast enough compared to the crit damage that a fully geared Gara can do to you while you're at it. Blowing AoE abilities are SCVs is simply proving the point that SCVs are a tank unto themselves.

 

Worst part is, just Gara alone puts out insane amount of CC, in addition to what his team can bring to bear: SCV surround, oil, seekers, FoE and the threat of R. This and his high weapon range mean that he can kite you all day long.

 

You can overcome this menace with better play and/or draft. But in theory, with equally matched drafts and perfect play (to exemplify what I mean by perfect play, in chess, we often say something like "Black will lose in 10 moves even with perfect play." or "Black can draw if both sides play perfectly". It is not to say that Black will lose or will draw, it just describes the power balance), Gara is clearly on the level of Kerrigan in terms of late-game tendency towards a total kuntlord.

 

Allow me to prove the above point by theory crafting. Huntress is commonly regarded as a decent pick (not tier1 of course). Gara does whatever the Huntress can do and more. DPS check, CC check, nuke debatable, pushing check, flexibility of build and tactics check.

 

You can stun and kill Gara with tricks like Cain stun + ult, but when played like a proper ranged DPS, Gara will engage after stuns are all out, of even amass SCV by attacking another hero before sending them your way. In general, I'm of the opinion that Gara's damage, CC and flexibility more than compensate for its lack of mobility.

 

The most annoying thing is the tele-proc of on hit effects even though its SCV are miles away. I mean what dafuq is that shap.

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Interesting how someone was wondering if gara is ever used and you're calling for an autoban.

 

You said he can good at all stages of the game as "problem", but I don't see a problem with any hero being useful all game - many are. But your real complaint is late game CRIT gara which takes a long time to ramp up. I think there are a lot of heroes that when also fully geared can 1v1 gara. Nova Darpa LZ Penthos Tychus Leo Warfield Kuradel Cyprus etc. 1v1s occur in team fights but even if it's fully 5v5, gara's missile stuns are pretty easy to dodge so his reliable form of CC is really just his slow which can easily be ignored by Gauss cannon. Many hero's out CC him and many out DPS him. Sure he can be annoying if you let the SCVs build up but there is usually much aoe in fights to kill them. Just like how BIO gets wrecked in team fights.

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Yea you can counter Garamond. Picking kerrigan or some other spammy AoE to keep the scvs down. Buying explosive and I believe silence still stops his AA? So taser helps. Any DPS that can sit in the back and avoid stuns and enemy DPS is going to give you trouble.

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with the right jungler yes, boros, lz, and balrog work well with their debuff immunity because missles are very easy to hit on melee characters trying to kill you. A ranged ganker with cc is also very good to kill gara with.

 

Or wait for him to use is stun then go gank him with anyone.

Edited by Dresden
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In late game, if built DPS, Gara can be equivalent to a tank and a DPS. The SCV are way stronger than the Queen's Ultra even.

 

Could you give me the build for that Gara? Thanks :) I would like to use it ;d

 

Well gara can be countered, raynor can work on him pretty well in 1v1 mid lane.

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Interesting how someone was wondering if gara is ever used and you're calling for an autoban.

 

You said he can good at all stages of the game as "problem", but I don't see a problem with any hero being useful all game - many are. But your real complaint is late game CRIT gara which takes a long time to ramp up. I think there are a lot of heroes that when also fully geared can 1v1 gara. Nova Darpa LZ Penthos Tychus Leo Warfield Kuradel Cyprus etc. 1v1s occur in team fights but even if it's fully 5v5, gara's missile stuns are pretty easy to dodge so his reliable form of CC is really just his slow which can easily be ignored by Gauss cannon. Many hero's out CC him and many out DPS him. Sure he can be annoying if you let the SCVs build up but there is usually much aoe in fights to kill them. Just like how BIO gets wrecked in team fights.

 

DPS Gara doesn't have a long ramp up. It has utility without items, so he's not farm dependent.

 

Let's simulate one of your proposed 1 v 1 engagements. Actual execution of the battle is determined by the hand-eye coordination of the players. The simulation below is to show the advantage of Gara given perfect play.

 

Gara v Nova

 

At about equal range, Gara and Nova open fire on one another.

 

Gara deploys seekers.

 

Nova Vanishes backwards to evade.

 

SCVs give chase and damage Nova further before expiring.

 

[The need for Nova to evade the stun and the fact that no one can move and shoot at the same time mean that Nova can not Vanish forward or sideways for it would subject her to direct auto attacks from Gara while not being able to shoot back.]

 

[Here, Nova can choose to stay back until her Vanish is off CD again. Re-engaging without E is dangerous, as below]

 

Nova re-engages without E.

 

Gara and Nova exchange shots.

 

Gara deploys oil slick and kites, while his SCVs damage Nova.

 

[At this point, if Nova stops to kill SCVs, Gara will simply come back and shoot her even more. If Nova, instead chooses to chase Gara, then she'd die due to AA from SCVs, Gara R and CC from oil slick.]

 

LZ and Balrog can do it in a 1 v 1 fight-to-the-death battle probably, but it becomes very difficult in team fights.

 

 

Yea you can counter Garamond. Lol it's the equivalent of saying Parallax counters stuns; When Gara is 6-slotted with DPS and armor items, you're just 5-slotted with 1-slot Parallax. Clearly a disadvantage in combat. Picking kerrigan or some other spammy AoE to keep the scvs down. Buying explosive and I believe silence still stops his AA? So taser helps. Any DPS that can sit in the back and avoid stuns and enemy DPS is going to give you trouble. Yes, try hard to counter those pesky SCVs. You're just agreeing with me that those SCVs are a firepower sponge and can act as a tank.

 

 

He is also easily ganked in the laning phase i believe. No more easily than many other heroes in early-game. Kerri, Huntress, Drake Justicar, Queen, to name a few.

 

with the right jungler yes, boros, lz, and balrog work well with their debuff immunity because missles are very easy to hit on melee characters trying to kill you. A ranged ganker with cc is also very good to kill gara with. Ganking is irrelavant here. I never mentioned ganking in my OP because anything can be shut down with ganking.

 

Or wait for him to use is stun then go gank him with anyone. Or he holds his stun virginity just for you.

 

Wouldn't explosive retrofit and shm kill all the SCVs? Yes and? It's not like they die in 1 shot from Explosive. Bio and Gara minions are not even in the same class. You kill a bunch of Bio minions in 2 - 3 shots; great; done and dusted. You kill some Gara SCVs in 2 - 3 shots, too late, they already gnawed off half your liver. Worse yet, you'd still be exposed to Gara's direct attacks and the further production of SCV. My only problem is that the SCVs drain energy after the first hit–with a Duran's Pendant of course.

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So he holds his stun until he gets ganked and can never use it in lane? sounds like a good plan.

 

Also ganking is relevant here because he can be shut down by ganks much easier than other heroes. You can't just say something is irrelevant because it doesn't fit your argument. Try shutting down pyro with ganks, depending on how far your enemies go it could very well be a double kill. Each ranged agility carry besides huntress has an escape. Gara has to land his mines well in order to escape. Against debuff immune heroes or someone who just dodges the missiles you got nothin.

 

I have done well with AA gara in a few ih and your are exaggerating the strengths, you are very easy to kill and lackluster damage early game.

 

A good nova who has farmed well will beat gara with her invisibility and high damage ult shots but that is a 1v1 and not really important.

 

Against an unprepared draft or as a good last pick gara can win games, i have done it before. If i saw someone pick gara early and it looks like it could be their dps i don't think it would be too hard to counter as long as you don't get out played. Get someone with debuff immunity and explosive retrofit.

 

Rog is a great counter. A crit gara was doing well and got ahead. I was playing rog bought explosive and healed off of him as he and his team were trying to kill me. Not sure how it works now that the scv health is different but gara would be distracted with rog and not killing my team so i can't see it going too different. Boros or lz should work as well.

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DPS Gara doesn't have a long ramp up. It has utility without items, so he's not farm dependent.

 

Let's simulate one of your proposed 1 v 1 engagements. Actual execution of the battle is determined by the hand-eye coordination of the players. The simulation below is to show the advantage of Gara given perfect play.

 

Gara v Nova

 

At about equal range, Gara and Nova open fire on one another.

 

Gara deploys seekers.

 

Nova Vanishes backwards to evade.

 

SCVs give chase and damage Nova further before expiring.

 

[The need for Nova to evade the stun and the fact that no one can move and shoot at the same time mean that Nova can not Vanish forward or sideways for it would subject her to direct auto attacks from Gara while not being able to shoot back.]

 

[Here, Nova can choose to stay back until her Vanish is off CD again. Re-engaging without E is dangerous, as below]

 

Nova re-engages without E.

 

Gara and Nova exchange shots.

 

Gara deploys oil slick and kites, while his SCVs damage Nova.

 

[At this point, if Nova stops to kill SCVs, Gara will simply come back and shoot her even more. If Nova, instead chooses to chase Gara, then she'd die due to AA from SCVs, Gara R and CC from oil slick.]

 

LZ and Balrog can do it in a 1 v 1 fight-to-the-death battle probably, but it becomes very difficult in team fights.

 

Gara always utility but that hardly means he doesn't have a ramp up. You mention the strength of being 6-slotted but then you say he's not farm dependent. You kinda need farm to get items though. He will be useful without items but without damage, he isn't much of a threat.

 

In your scenario Nova can easily evade the stun by vanishing toward Gara instead of away, getting close enough so that if gara turns to kite, Nova will get free shots on him. You should also keep in mind that gara's on hit damage is significantly lower than Nova's (or any other dps hero for that matter). So should Nova have explosive, she can lifesteal like crazy on the SCV's and she will steal much more health on attack than gara does. So there's an easy advantage for any dps hero over gara. Gara requires multiple SCV's be out before he can match and then out dps someone equally built. During that second or two, Nova has the advantage and should explosive rape all the SCV's, Nova can alternate between leeching off the SCV's and attacking gara and still out dps gara.

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Gara always utility but that hardly means he doesn't have a ramp up. You mention the strength of being 6-slotted but then you say he's not farm dependent. You kinda need farm to get items though. He will be useful without items but without damage, he isn't much of a threat.

 

What I meant was that Gara has utilities that allow him to contribute to the team in a significant way without having to wait for his DPS to ramp up. Certainly he needs a ramp up period of DPS, but his total utility's ramp up curve is a lot flatter.

 

In your scenario Nova can easily evade the stun by vanishing toward Gara instead of away, getting close enough so that if gara turns to kite, Nova will get free shots on him. You should also keep in mind that gara's on hit damage is significantly lower than Nova's (or any other dps hero for that matter). So should Nova have explosive, she can lifesteal like crazy on the SCV's and she will steal much more health on attack than gara does. So there's an easy advantage for any dps hero over gara. Gara requires multiple SCV's be out before he can match and then out dps someone equally built. During that second or two, Nova has the advantage and should explosive rape all the SCV's, Nova can alternate between leeching off the SCV's and attacking gara and still out dps gara.

 

Vanishing forward is ill-advised, because Gara can just slick + ult and Nova cant escape. Gara can even do an SCV surround to pseudo-root her.

 

Let's be generous and assume that Nova has 550 damage. Gara's SCVs in their normal state, at level 18 have 255 hp and 50% resist. Explosive leeches 12%, but the AoE only does 30% of weapon damage. Assuming that critical strike does 1.9 times normal weapon damage for ease of calculation, and that Gara has Cauteriser which is reasonable, let's see.

 

Nova's direct AA with critical strike does 550*1.9*(1-0.5)=522.5 => leech = 522.5*0.5*0.12=31.35 Direct AA can kill an SCV in 1 shot, but that's guaranteed by mechanics anyway.

 

Nova's AoE does 550*(1-0.5)*0.3=82.5 => leech = 9.9 AoE can not kill an SCV in 1 shot.

 

A fully geared Gara can do 250*1.9 per shot with critical strike. Assuming Nova has 1 armor item, then that's 237.5 per shot.

 

Constant number of SCVs required to maintain a dynamic equilibrium of Nova's HP = (237.5 - 31.35)/9.9+1 = 22.

 

To stack 22 on Nova, Gara needs to have shot 22 times at her. You know what that means.

 

That doesn't even take into account of the additional 50% resist granted to SCVs on Gara's ult.

Edited by hbogyt
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So he holds his stun until he gets ganked and can never use it in lane? sounds like a good plan.

 

Also ganking is relevant here because he can be shut down by ganks much easier than other heroes. You can't just say something is irrelevant because it doesn't fit your argument. Yes I can because, as RageQuittitch said, every team can protect their carries with wards and lane-nurses. I have always been arguing hypothetically under the condition of perfect play. Getting ganked during laning is not perfect play. Try shutting down pyro with ganks, depending on how far your enemies go it could very well be a double kill. Each ranged agility carry besides huntress has an escape. They can't escape when they're chained stunned. You can also spread of wider net. Have someone standby near where, say, Darpa would land after his ult. Gara has to land his mines well in order to escape. Against debuff immune heroes or someone who just dodges the missiles you got nothin. You got towers.

 

I have done well with AA gara in a few ih and your are exaggerating the strengths, you are very easy to kill and lackluster damage early game.

 

A good nova who has farmed well will beat gara with her invisibility and high damage ult shots but that is a 1v1 and not really important.

 

Against an unprepared draft or as a good last pick gara can win games, i have done it before. If i saw someone pick gara early and it looks like it could be their dps i don't think it would be too hard to counter as long as you don't get out played. Get someone with debuff immunity and explosive retrofit.

 

Rog is a great counter. A crit gara was doing well and got ahead. I was playing rog bought explosive and healed off of him as he and his team were trying to kill me. Not sure how it works now that the scv health is different but gara would be distracted with rog and not killing my team so i can't see it going too different. Boros or lz should work as well.

 

I concede that Rog is one of the few that works well against Gara in 1 v 1 due to its natural leech, but 5 v 5 is more complex. Gara can position such that you won't be given a convenient opportunity to just Q onto him.

 

But it is interesting to see how well a draft centred around a core dps Gara would work out, which I assume there is none at the moment.

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