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Queen and mana drains


Rayek
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If laning vs just 1, or even 2 ranged dps w/ int version of durans, Queen is 90+% ineffective. I understand some would probably call this the counter, she has a maximum regen rate and a low starting mana pool. If denied abilities, denied green balls, just runs around AA'ing w/ a relatively short range. Other int heroes are not debilitated and denied vs. mana drains in the same way.

 

My suggestion would be to have mana drains at 50% effective vs her or slightly increase the range of her green balls pickup (v) so she isn't completely denied.

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The reason I bring it up is that queen was nerfed with a mana regen cap and a significantly shorter V pickup. The only counter to drains/denies is to get cerebro, and thats not early-game. Banelings are fairly easy to defeat, but it often includes buying a TS ward or juggling in and out of the combat area.

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Her v range was actually decreased to make her laning phase harder. So Queen has to get into range of some danger to pick them up.

 

The issue is just the fact that mana drains are starting @ 16% of her mana @start, whereas other players are more like 5% or less for the average caster. We used to be able to get around this a little with mana regen, but since that was capped lower, Queen is at a serious disadvantage in comparison to other players that are competant. To add some basic math(s), two people in a lane both getting off 2x AA = -64% mana. Add two aggressive players w/ Durans in a lane, and Queen is completely shut down, unable to get any green ball/less or no xp, because Queen is effectively pushed off the lane completely when the enemy only last-hits their creep.

 

I'll be the first to admit that the majority of pubs this isn't going to be an issue because players aren't countering that hard.

 

Food for thought.

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God forbid a hero can be shut down in the laning phase forcing a lane switch...

 

You could have a constructive post along the lines of "I feel the changes were valid to force Queen to make lane switches". Instead your post was condescending/adversarial, which I do not think is appropriate, but to each their own. (SC2 is always in a state of atrophy, but this isn't helping us gain/maintain a community)

 

Secondly, you attempted to make the comment secular in nature, invoking a "higher power" in your post. This does not provide you any credibility nor does it assist moving the discussion forward in any positive/effective way.

 

Thanks everyone who had good feedback. (Dest) I will try to see how this works sometime today, and hopefully provide more feedback in regard to the difficult circumstance of teams that counter a particular hero so effectively.

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You could have a constructive post along the lines of "I feel the changes were valid to force Queen to make lane switches". Instead your post was condescending/adversarial, which I do not think is appropriate, but to each their own. (SC2 is always in a state of atrophy, but this isn't helping us gain/maintain a community)

 

Secondly, you attempted to make the comment secular in nature, invoking a "higher power" in your post. This does not provide you any credibility nor does it assist moving the discussion forward in any positive/effective way.

 

Thanks everyone who had good feedback. (Dest) I will try to see how this works sometime today, and hopefully provide more feedback in regard to the difficult circumstance of teams that counter a particular hero so effectively.

 

You're not necessarily wrong here about his post, though I do think you're mistaken about the definition of the term "secular." Despite that, however, I think Yaldi was just trying to point out that having a clear weakness isn't necessarily a bad thing. Queen is also someone who isn't going to run out of mana in a lategame siege, whereas other heroes would. In addition, she gains power as she collects biomass so I think that being able to shut her down to some degree is fine.

 

 

Also I do agree that if you're playing as Queen and the enemy sends 2 ranged heroes who have pendant, you should just switch lanes. Sending certain people to counter another is a perfectly valid strategy and something that I'd encourage rather than making every lane even and stagnant.

Edited by Aellectris
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Also I do agree that if you're playing as Queen and the enemy sends 2 ranged heroes who have pendant, you should just switch lanes. Sending certain people to counter another is a perfectly valid strategy and something that I'd encourage rather than making every lane even and stagnant.

 

Or keep those 2 tied up, and let your other team mates push harder on the outside lanes. Should be a 1v2 lane out there somewhere if they are doubling up against queen.

 

On a side note, how about getting a durans pendant as queen to recharge your own energy? Is that possible? Would it help counter the drain? I often just target the ranged creeps when I have a durans pendant, and that keeps me charged up (admittedly this is not as queen, as I don't play her often).

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A pendent on queen seems like a good counter, as well as just trying to zone your enemies out with your banelings to avoid getting AAed.

 

Of course, that's probably easier said than done.

Edited by Jaysi
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Her v range was actually decreased to make her laning phase harder. So Queen has to get into range of some danger to pick them up.

A pendent on queen seems like a good counter, as well as just trying to zone your enemies out with your banelings to avoid getting AAed.

 

Of course, that's probably easier said than done.

 

Queen = harder to play

Mission accomplished...

 

That said I am going to give this a shot tonight!

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A pendent on queen seems like a good counter, as well as just trying to zone your enemies out with your banelings to avoid getting AAed.

 

Of course, that's probably easier said than done.

 

Tested pendant does not give queen mana, although soul engine does, and it's pretty decent.

 

Against two+ enemies properly playing its easy to separate the banelings and still move into harass position.

 

Still haven't seen harass like I have in premades or ih on queen in any normal pubs.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Rayek. This is a great thread because you have been very specific:

 

"Queen mana pool low = massively susceptible to pendant energy steal"

 

I fully understand your problem and it allows for a great debate.

 

I have a solution to your problem that does not involve changing anything though :

 

As Destroyer said: Buy Soul Engine.

I use Wealth and start SoulEngine Mobeius Coil

Get Q first, target creeps. The splash damage will usually proc mobeius coil for money early against heroes.

Creep kills will charge soul engine which replenishes her mana by very large amounts.

 

Starting with soul engine should "Minimize" your energy problems.

 

also if a lane is 2on1 instead of 2on2, you should get shut down.

IMO Queen is perfectly viable with soul engine. Not to mention that this item has ALWAYS been great on queen. So its not like you are being forced off of a good build for an item thats a bad fix. This item is totally legit on queen. I would say required!

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  • 3 weeks later...

I also think that not many 2-range lanes combos generally start with 2x pendant so the scenario is not as common of a problem. If the other team is going off their build to shut down the queen (by starting 2x pendant) than it sounds like queen is already impacting early game. Now your just holdinga tower 2v1 waiting for the ganks which is completely fine.

 

Soul engine is a great solutionto the specific scenario, but I also feel like it's okay for heros to be zoned out of their lanes with this amount of effort.

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  • 2 months later...

Unless you pick some one who has ranged wave clear, like a lot of range spell casters.

 

To lane against queen good heroes are erekul, pyro, immortal, maar, or jakk. If you want to defend against her push any of your typical ranged wave clearers should work as long as you can isolate the ultralisk. Cow, jakk, maar, immortal, dustin, cyprus, are your best bet. Don't pick something that will get harassed out like raynor or a ranged physical dps hero.

 

Don't group up for the ult. After mid game queens damage falls off and if you don't get ultra+baneling combo'd all she has going for her are her support items and heal. Make sure someone gets anti-healing item because her heal is probably her best skill when she gets kassia.

 

Don't stand and let the ultralisk attack you unless you are very, very tanky. Timmy is mean.

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Unless you pick some one who has ranged wave clear, like a lot of range spell casters.

 

To lane against queen good heroes are erekul, pyro, immortal, maar, or jakk. If you want to defend against her push any of your typical ranged wave clearers should work as long as you can isolate the ultralisk. Cow, jakk, maar, immortal, dustin, cyprus, are your best bet. Don't pick something that will get harassed out like raynor or a ranged physical dps hero.

 

Don't group up for the ult. After mid game queens damage falls off and if you don't get ultra+baneling combo'd all she has going for her are her support items and heal. Make sure someone gets anti-healing item because her heal is probably her best skill when she gets kassia.

 

Don't stand and let the ultralisk attack you unless you are very, very tanky. Timmy is mean.

all of those heros except maar

-> shop once and towers gone

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