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The Armor Penetration Items.


FroggyKilla
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Xenomorph Cleaver- I feel Contamination Shard and this Item are exactly the same. They both increase your Physical Damage. I'm either suggesting a rework of one or the other, or both.

 

C-48 Gauss Cannon- Does anyone ever buy this item? The active it provides doesn't do it's job well.

 

Generally, I see it unfair that Casters get one item slot to fulfill their Anti-Spell Armor needs, but AA's need to fill 2 slots with items for Anti-Armor.

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Xenomorph Cleaver- I feel Contamination Shard and this Item are exactly the same. They both increase your Physical Damage. I'm either suggesting a rework of one or the other, or both.

There's huge difference

Contamshard is so useless that no one ever buy it

C-48 Gauss Cannon- Does anyone ever buy this item? The active it provides doesn't do it's job well.

i buy it almost every game when i play aa carry

Generally, I see it unfair that Casters get one item slot to fulfill their Anti-Spell Armor needs, but AA's need to fill 2 slots with items for Anti-Armor.

no clue what are you talking about

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Xenomorph Cleaver- I feel Contamination Shard and this Item are exactly the same. They both increase your Physical Damage. I'm either suggesting a rework of one or the other, or both.

Xenomorphic Cleaver increases your Physical Weapon Damage, while providing Armor Penetration. Contamination Shard increases Physical Damage dealt to the target, but the Armor Value of the target is unaffected. Consequently, Xenomorphic Cleaver is VASTLY superior in terms of increasing your damage.

 

The point of Contamination Shard is two parts:

1. It provides Movement Speed (it still does right?)

2. It has very good stats. It provides 16 Armor and 16 Spell Armor, as well as a huge chunk of Strength, instantly making you extensively tankier. The item is custom made for heroes like Strength Bruisers, although I also see it used often for a tanky Shadow, Zeratul, or Penthos (who more or less fulfill a similar role to Strength Bruisers, albeit with greater mobility and slightly less tankiness)

 

C-48 Gauss Cannon- Does anyone ever buy this item? The active it provides doesn't do it's job well.

The item is great as a substitute for Weapon Speed while also grabbing Armor Penetration, and I find its Active to be incredibly helpful on heroes without instant mobility skills like Huntress or Toximancer. Basically, my philosophy is this: if I plan to Auto-Attack alot with it but it does not have high mobility, then I grab C48 Gauss Cannon.

 

Generally, I see it unfair that Casters get one item slot to fulfill their Anti-Spell Armor needs, but AA's need to fill 2 slots with items for Anti-Armor.

So you want around 30% Armor Penetration, of about 400+ Weapon Damage, 3 hits per second, on a AA DPS? Casters have higher Armor Penetration for their items since spells have something called cooldowns and skill shots, which is something more than Right-Click Auto-Attack DPS can say. Edited by taznkid
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The point of Contamination Shard is two parts:

1. It provides Movement Speed (it still does right?)

2. It has very good stats. It provides 16 Armor and 16 Spell Armor, as well as a huge chunk of Strength, instantly making you extensively tankier. The item is custom made for heroes like Strength Bruisers, although I also see it used often for a tanky Shadow, Zeratul, or Penthos (who more or less fulfill a similar role to Strength Bruisers, albeit with greater mobility and slightly less tankiness)

 

 

The item is great as a substitute for Weapon Speed while also grabbing Armor Penetration, and I find its Active to be incredibly helpful on heroes without instant mobility skills like Huntress or Toximancer. Basically, my philosophy is this: if I plan to Auto-Attack alot with it but it does not have high mobility, then I grab C48 Gauss Cannon.

 

So you want around 30% Armor Penetration, of about 400+ Weapon Damage, 3 hits per second, on a AA DPS? Casters have higher Armor Penetration for their items since spells have something called cooldowns and skill shots, which is something more than Right-Click Auto-Attack DPS can say.

1. Shinobi Style can provide the same movement boost, and can equally help you get away. The AGI gained boosts both weapon damage and weapon speed. Also, it gives HP. The only difference is that 15% Armor Penetration Stat. Oh wait, I think Shinobi's active lasts longer (about twice as long).

2. What are you talking about? 2 items * 15% Armor Penetration=30% Armor Penetration vs. 30% Spell Armor Penetration on Casters. Also, I'm pretty sure skill shots aren't so hard to land. Your only legit argument was the cooldowns. Also, whether or not the DPS has engaged. A competent hero who relies on his skills for damage can outwit any DPS.

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1. Shinobi Style can provide the same movement boost, and can equally help you get away. The AGI gained boosts both weapon damage and weapon speed. Also, it gives HP. The only difference is that 15% Armor Penetration Stat. Oh wait, I think Shinobi's active lasts longer (about twice as long).

Shinobi is most likely going to be used to engage, and the Movement Active does not give you Immunity to slow, nor does it ignore unit collision, which seems irrelevant, but is huge in terms of maneuverability. Furthermore, Shinobi Style is used to initially engage, not as a maneuverability item mid-combat or for an escape. Sure go ahead, try and use Shinobi Style after engaging to escape or get into a better position. Oh wait, you can't, because it is on cooldown.

2. What are you talking about? 2 items * 15% Armor Penetration=30% Armor Penetration vs. 30% Spell Armor Penetration on Casters. Also, I'm pretty sure skill shots aren't so hard to land. Your only legit argument was the cooldowns. Also, whether or not the DPS has engaged. A competent hero who relies on his skills for damage can outwit any DPS.

Okay I phrased it a bit incorrectly. What I meant was 30% Armor Penetration on a SINGLE ITEM for Auto-Attackers.

 

Try playing a In-House. Easily 4 times out of 5, a well equiped AA-DPS is going to kill non-DPS, assuming the other guy is not a burst caster. That's just how they work. So you are saying that you are COMPLETELY OKAY with someone dishing out a steady 120 TRUE DAMAGE EVERY SECOND on top of

 

1. Weapon Damage after reduction from Armor

2. Possible Isomorphic Pyre Unique (with Armor Penetration)

3. Possible Sliptide Scythe Unique

4. Possible Critical Hits (with Armor Penetration)

5. Possible Lifesteal (which I think is completely unbalanced in favor of DPS since Spell Leech can't keep up at all)

 

 

Also, you can't just say "Your only legit argument was the cooldowns" and dismiss that Cooldown statement. Even saying a average Cooldown of 10 seconds on your average offensive ability, that's still a full 10 seconds of that list I just made above. The Speed at which damage is dealt is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IN FAVOR OF AUTO-ATTACK DPS.

 

Neither can you make a groundless statement like "I'm pretty sure skill shots aren't so hard to land". Know why they are called skill shots? Because they take skill. Why do they take skill? Because it is possible to miss. Even the best players can't land every single spell every single time, whereas Right Clicking someone to Auto-Attack them is 100% Accuracy regardless of skill. It is not about "is it easy or not". When it comes down to it, the Accuracy for dealing out Damage is completely different. Go play Maar and tell me that you land his Meteor every single time you aim at a enemy hero no matter what, and then I'll consider your argument to have some weight.

 

And you want to give AA-DPS the option to max out their Armor Penetration with a SINGLE item? The fact that it is divided between 2 is suppose to be a nerf to balance out that damage. Buying both gives you much higher damage out, but consequently you sacrifice that additional slot that could have been used on something else.

 

I expected you to understand all this through the more concise post above WITHOUT me having to spell it out for you. Clearly not the case.

Edited by taznkid
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A major reason why aa heroes have their penetration split into two items is because AA heroes do tend to be better at killing tanks than casters. Where-as casters see penetration as a general bonus to their damage, I want AA heroes to see penetration as a bonus to their damage specifically vs tanks. If an enemy tank is particularly fed, most caster carries won't specifically be thinking "dang I need spell pen so i can kill this tank". An aa hero in that same situation, however, will probably be thinking "I need to be able to cut through this tank". Thus the ability to choose between full ar pen (2x shard of ruin) or finishing one item before deciding if he needs another is a more reasonable choice to have in the game.

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A major reason why aa heroes have their penetration split into two items is because AA heroes do tend to be better at killing tanks than casters. Where-as casters see penetration as a general bonus to their damage, I want AA heroes to see penetration as a bonus to their damage specifically vs tanks. If an enemy tank is particularly fed, most caster carries won't specifically be thinking "dang I need spell pen so i can kill this tank". An aa hero in that same situation, however, will probably be thinking "I need to be able to cut through this tank". Thus the ability to choose between full ar pen (2x shard of ruin) or finishing one item before deciding if he needs another is a more reasonable choice to have in the game.

 

So why shouldn't spell casters have this choice? Or is their choice their build order and not necessarily full build?

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So why shouldn't spell casters have this choice? Or is their choice their build order and not necessarily full build?

I assume because Spell Casters can't kills tanks (not quickly anyway). I feel having their Armor Penetration ability be divided would be a MASSIVE nerf to casters that we do not want.

 

Having said that, I feel that there should be another choice for Spell Armor Penetration, sort of the way Xenomorphic Cleaver provides more damage, whereas C48 Gauss Cannon provides more Speed.

 

Perhaps make Argus Crystal a Armor Penetration item, and combine Warp Shard with current Gravity Edge (and round out stats a bit)?

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The primary difference between xeno and contam as I see it is contam is a surviveability item with a healthy dps boost, xeno is a situational anti tank item with a dps boost, I agree with tazn that split armor pen on casters would be a big nerf, in my experience burst casters already have trouble with remotely farmed heroes, lets not make it even harder on them for no reason except consistency amongst pen numbers per item

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A major reason why aa heroes have their penetration split into two items is because AA heroes do tend to be better at killing tanks than casters. Where-as casters see penetration as a general bonus to their damage, I want AA heroes to see penetration as a bonus to their damage specifically vs tanks. If an enemy tank is particularly fed, most caster carries won't specifically be thinking "dang I need spell pen so i can kill this tank". An aa hero in that same situation, however, will probably be thinking "I need to be able to cut through this tank". Thus the ability to choose between full ar pen (2x shard of ruin) or finishing one item before deciding if he needs another is a more reasonable choice to have in the game.

Oh.

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Shinobi is most likely going to be used to engage, and the Movement Active does not give you Immunity to slow, nor does it ignore unit collision, which seems irrelevant, but is huge in terms of maneuverability. Furthermore, Shinobi Style is used to initially engage, not as a maneuverability item mid-combat or for an escape. Sure go ahead, try and use Shinobi Style after engaging to escape or get into a better position. Oh wait, you can't, because it is on cooldown.

Shinobi can be used both ways. Just that the defensive method isn't "conventional". Oh wait, since you mentioned Huntress, her Q can be used for saves (of yourself or a teammate), And since it has added burst (Q adds On Hit Effects) for that "Back off" warning, I say it can be used defensively with Huntress.

 

Okay I phrased it a bit incorrectly. What I meant was 30% Armor Penetration on a SINGLE ITEM for Auto-Attackers.

 

Try playing a In-House.

No. I'm not going to participate in playing the same character and the same build over and over.

Easily 4 times out of 5, a well equiped AA-DPS is going to kill non-DPS, assuming the other guy is not a burst caster. That's just how they work. So you are saying that you are COMPLETELY OKAY with someone dishing out a steady 120 TRUE DAMAGE EVERY SECOND on top of

You let Grunty dish out 120 True Damage every second. I don't hate Grunty (in fact, I love playing him), but you must realize he can dish out 174 True Damage per hit at Lvl 18 (30+8*Lvl). Also, Armor Penetration doesn't convert Physical Damage into True Damage. It just bypasses it, much like Gravity Edge.

 

1. Weapon Damage after reduction from Armor

2. Possible Isomorphic Pyre Unique (with Armor Penetration)

3. Possible Sliptide Scythe Unique

4. Possible Critical Hits (with Armor Penetration)

5. Possible Lifesteal (which I think is completely unbalanced in favor of DPS since Spell Leech can't keep up at all)

Enjoy dealing with Grunty and that 120 True Damage along with those points you mentioned. Also, Crit is designed to kill other AA, and Armor Penetration is for dealing with Tanks. I'll do say this, Lifesteal is a pain, just look at Kerrigan.

 

Also, you can't just say "Your only legit argument was the cooldowns" and dismiss that Cooldown statement. Even saying a average Cooldown of 10 seconds on your average offensive ability, that's still a full 10 seconds of that list I just made above. The Speed at which damage is dealt is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IN FAVOR OF AUTO-ATTACK DPS.

Oh yes I can. And I didn't dismiss it. There's Cooldown Reduction, but then you'll move in to say "It's God Awful" (See, I saved you another paragraph trying to explain it to me). It, like Weapon Speed, must be bought in bulk for a decent effect. Just buy Symphonic Seed, and with kills and assist you obtain from burst, you get 100% Cooldown Reduction. That's a lot. And no, it's not "The Past Lethal Barb for Casters." Oh wait, we have a hero that can mash Q because it has 0.0 Cooldown, and a hero that can reset all Cooldowns (but it's and Ulti, so it's fair).

 

Neither can you make a groundless statement like "I'm pretty sure skill shots aren't so hard to land". Know why they are called skill shots? Because they take skill. Why do they take skill? Because it is possible to miss. Even the best players can't land every single spell every single time, whereas Right Clicking someone to Auto-Attack them is 100% Accuracy regardless of skill. It is not about "is it easy or not". When it comes down to it, the Accuracy for dealing out Damage is completely different. Go play Maar and tell me that you land his Meteor every single time you aim at a enemy hero no matter what, and then I'll consider your argument to have some weight.

So, what you're saying is everyone is horribad with a skill shot? And then you say that it is possible to miss when your tone implies an impossibility to land a skill shot. First of all there are four factors to skill shots. They are knowledge, timing, range, and hitbox. Also, a good player doesn't just use a flobing skill and say "I did something today." That's like a Zera who planars for the sake of planaring. They know when to get a near guarantee to hit them and/or hit them perfectly. Someone can just mash skills and be bad, but hit them because of a large hitbox. You're telling me that great players must have all or none when clearly that's not the case.

And you want to give AA-DPS the option to max out their Armor Penetration with a SINGLE item? The fact that it is divided between 2 is suppose to be a nerf to balance out that damage. Buying both gives you much higher damage out, but consequently you sacrifice that additional slot that could have been used on something else.

There are two options for dealing with someone stacking armor, but there are three options for dealing with tanks. You only need two of those three to efficiently deal with tanks. It's most likely gonna be Xenomorph Cleaver and Isomorphic Pyre.

 

I expected you to understand all this through the more concise post above WITHOUT me having to spell it out for you. Clearly not the case.

I'm sorry, did you just condescend to me? I'll take that as an insult; you can call me an giant handful or call me a mental retailiator, but the only thing you clearly spelt out was your elitist and aggressive way to argue. Don't get pissy with me when arguing. I've seen you do this with DavidChan, and you must stop with this nonsense.

Bottom Line: If you get C-48 Gauss Cannon, you are wasting an item slot. It needs to be reworked with more helpful stats or a new unique. Buffing or removing is not the answer. But I must compromise by not getting 30% Armor Penetration.

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You get Gauss cannon when the enemy team has multiple slows, like a rog with smasher, or a chilling. In no way is it a wasted item slot. That fast you keep saying it is just proves that you have no idea what you are talking about and just makes people ignore what you are saying.

Edited by Destroyer
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This guy reminds me of Johannes....in other words: a lost cause

 

I was going to give one more reply, but Back space ended up going back a page and made me lose all of my progress that I made through about 30 minutes. I'm just going to pretend this guy does not exist on the forums because he is frustrating to deal with and gives me a headache...

 

In other words, like Destroyer said: he "[has] no idea what [he is] talking about and just makes [me] ignore what [he is] saying". I'm clearly just wasting my time with this guy, when I could be having fun doing something else.

Edited by taznkid
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You get Gauss cannon when the enemy team has multiple slows, like a rog with smasher, or a chilling. In no way is it a wasted item slot. That fast you keep saying it is just proves that you have no idea what you are talking about and just makes people ignore what you are saying.

 

But with Whales recent changes, almost all sources of weapon speed reduction have been moved albeit what, chilling? I can't even remember what skills retained their weapon speed slow like Jackson or Toxi.

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What does weapon speed have to do with movement speed?

 

A lot of skills and items reduced both movement speed and weapon speed together. It was kind of a redundant feature when most were mainly utilized for movement speed slow anyways, but then you gained an inherent advantage in 1v1s and other situations.

 

In reference to armor pen items, people are wondering why you would take c48 over the other one or how to fit it into your build. Destroyer suggests building c48 when the other team has a lot of weapon speed slow or buys chilling to compensate for that.

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that a lot of skills and items lost their weapon speed reduction and it's harder to say when it's worth building to counter weapon speed reduction as prepatch.

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