Remove stun knife and timesplitter

[Johannes]

I just played a game againsta rancor who got fed because he could just stun pop stun knife and deal over 2k damage with no nukes before the stun wore off, and rancor is supposed to be a support, do you see what i am saying?

[GreenSkittles]

who gives a flob what he is supose to be cow is supose to be an aa and he goes int!

[Francuz]

Have you ever heard of paralax? In my opinion this thread is providing inadequate ammount of information as to why stun knife/timesplitter should be removed. Looks to me like rancor is causing you problems not exactly the stun knife.

Sorrry to bring this to you but some heroes are really strong with specifing items especially fat ones, especially in pubs.

[Johannes]

Oh a 3400 mineral item to counter a 1535 mineral item seems real fair right, and on top of that it is absolutely neccesary for survival, items like that are generaly removed because they are way to good. You have yet to give a good reason as to why stun knife at the very least shouldn't be removed, the parallel in dota has a very short ranged 2 second stun and is a good 10% more expensive then any other item in the game, and people canspend 10 minutes farming a regualr late ame item, if you are decnt you can get stun knife on your first back and timesplitter generally after the first teamfight

[GreenSkittles]

This is aos not dota dont ask question inb4 every item gets nerfed

[Johannes]

Dota is generally considered balanced and that it e is super expensive and worse then timesplitter, do you have such a problem with everyones ideas on balance, the reason i brought it up was because it is the only item like it in any game, and its way weaker

[Hogwarts]

I lobbied for its removal for years.

 

The item used to be a lot worse.

[Johannes]

Ots still super broken, i would have lost to an aa rancor if atomic hadn't gotten really fed playing acral, even he couldn't 1v1 the ghost, do you realize how silly that is, an aa carry who excels at dueling can't duel a support because of how broken one item is

[hbogyt]

Ots still super broken, i would have lost to an aa rancor if atomic hadn't gotten really fed playing acral, even he couldn't 1v1 the ghost, do you realize how silly that is, an aa carry who excels at dueling can't duel a support because of how broken one item is

 

AA rancor is viable as a secondary source of DPS. There is nothing that inherently prevents Rancor from building DPS.

[Doom]

Rancor is not a support. There is no actual support in this game except perhaps medic. I suppose if you are loose about the definition, micro, roach, aksha, and strictly tank/support item holding lz and drake are too. The fact that Rancor can buy wards and truesight more cheaply than other heroes, or that he can scan somewhere once a minute or that he can help someone else land a skillshot make him able to fullfill a support role, but since he still would build int he'd really be a team-friendly burst mage. His extreme range and decent agility make him a viable ADC, in the same way that Caitlin's extreme auto-attack range makes her viable and considered one of the strongest ADC despite having no damage steroid to speak of, and less cc, burst and mobility than some others.

 

Stun knife IS broken. But on the other hand, it is the only thing that makes champs like Zeratul legit assassins, or long range heroes like Nova strong instead of worthless (unlike league there are no defensive items that are good on ranged AA champs, especially with the much needed FOE nerf. I mean galactic defender is good, and sliptide provides good defensive stats while still being probably the best DPS item in the game, but AOS has no Guardian Angel equivalent or more importantly Mercurial Scimitar to deal with chain-cc. That's why the meta is to CC as many enemy heroes as possible so you can murder them before they CC you. Which is why LZ is flobing broken, because I press Q, run at fools like I am Master Yi except with insane health and an ultimate that also blocks stuns and roots, and murder everything since all the tasers, stun knifes, FoEs, and hero CC that allowed the enemy to think they can afford to be squishy does nothing to me and even when I'm behind, I still have several K more minerals worth of stats and actives than everyone else. +the basically physical damage invulnerability helps.

[BestPlayer]

Rancor is not a support. There is no actual support in this game except perhaps medic. I suppose if you are loose about the definition, micro, roach, aksha, and strictly tank/support item holding lz and drake are too. The fact that Rancor can buy wards and truesight more cheaply than other heroes, or that he can scan somewhere once a minute or that he can help someone else land a skillshot make him able to fullfill a support role, but since he still would build int he'd really be a team-friendly burst mage. His extreme range and decent agility make him a viable ADC, in the same way that Caitlin's extreme auto-attack range makes her viable and considered one of the strongest ADC despite having no damage steroid to speak of, and less cc, burst and mobility than some others.

 

Stun knife IS broken. But on the other hand, it is the only thing that makes champs like Zeratul legit assassins, or long range heroes like Nova strong instead of worthless (unlike league there are no defensive items that are good on ranged AA champs, especially with the much needed FOE nerf. I mean galactic defender is good, and sliptide provides good defensive stats while still being probably the best DPS item in the game, but AOS has no Guardian Angel equivalent or more importantly Mercurial Scimitar to deal with chain-cc. That's why the meta is to CC as many enemy heroes as possible so you can murder them before they CC you. Which is why LZ is flobing broken, because I press Q, run at fools like I am Master Yi except with insane health and an ultimate that also blocks stuns and roots, and murder everything since all the tasers, stun knifes, FoEs, and hero CC that allowed the enemy to think they can afford to be squishy does nothing to me and even when I'm behind, I still have several K more minerals worth of stats and actives than everyone else. +the basically physical damage invulnerability helps.

lol

[Johannes]

So your logic as to why a broken item shouldn't be removed is because it is the only thing that allows the most broken duelist to burst assasinate people instead of just dueling them and auto winning because of his w and absurd r, i don't think there needs to be some sort of cc immunity for carries, carries need to be more dependent on suppots throughout the game instead of going in all rambo mode and coming out with a luda

[OPReN]

I don't ever get stun knife on any ranged hard carries

cuz it lowers down your dps

it doesn't really need to get countered..

you will always deal more damage if they put some money on it

[Doom]

So your logic as to why a broken item shouldn't be removed is because it is the only thing that allows the most broken duelist to burst assasinate people instead of just dueling them and auto winning because of his w and absurd r, i don't think there needs to be some sort of cc immunity for carries, carries need to be more dependent on suppots throughout the game instead of going in all rambo mode and coming out with a luda

 

Pretty much. Zera was nerfed (perhaps not enough) in particular his E so that it could not be combined as often with stun knife. If you remove stun knife that means that he has no way of getting more than 3 attacks in (and even that much infrequently thanks to high E cooldown) which basically changes his role. Zera will become basically worthless as an assassin because heroes like Cyprus, Rancor, Vergil, etc, will be better at quickly killing someone 1v1. Zera is currently not a strong late-game hero as is. A couple of patches ago, he was, now he isn't. The nerfs to his E remove a lot of late-game team fight utility, and his mobility overall is lowered too, which was why he was really good in the first place, a sort of bursty pentos. With BHM nerfs, he has a very finite cap on his burst, and that is soon exceeded by just regular auto-attack champs. In the past it was possible to solo LZ, Tychus, Balrog, Pentos, Kerrigan, etc as Zera, even in the late-game. Right now it is not. Tanky DPS dominates, at least in pubs, because squishy dps gets hit by a single cc ability and die before they come out from under (i am talking about Nova-like heroes, not shadow who is still very viable thanks to a few other broken items and his ultimate). I literally haven't lost a game as LZ in the last 50 games I played him. The item is broken, but it is what makes and breaks a few characters, right now. All I am saying is not to keep it the way it is, but rather be mindful of what happens to a few heroes that get it every game when it is gone. Also, buff AOS assassins pls. Talon and Zed are legit picks, Ling, Leo, are not, and Zera won't be too, if you remove stun knife.

[BestPlayer]

Why is Medic the only support?

Is it cause it has a heal? Then what about Rory, Akasha, Egon, Erekul, Toxi, Yigg?

"Oh", I hear you say, "Toxi and Erekul are not support heroes". Why? They have heals, don't they?

 

You have an insane definition of what constitutes a "support", Doom. In DotA, extremely few heroes have heals, but the game still has more support heroes than AoS' whole heropool.

[Hogwarts]

I don't ever get stun knife on any ranged hard carries

cuz it lowers down your dps

it doesn't really need to get countered..

you will always deal more damage if they put some money on it

 

sometimes utility > dmg

[Adamantium]

I like the idea of an aa item at the price point of stun knife, but it should offer something other than a free stun. And timesplitter is one of the best AA vs AA items, but still the active should be replaced with something other than a free stun.

[taznkid]

Maybe decrease the stun duration and/or damage for Ranged units and give it full for Melee?

[Adamantium]

Why do they need a stun at all

[taznkid]

Why do they need a stun at all

So melee heroes dont get insta gibbed? idk

[Skydie]

Why do they need a stun at all

 

You saying they should use lead instead? #WalterScott

[NeVeRWiN]

Remove the stun from time splitter, it would be a new game. Make time splitter more like it's intended name. Some sort of increase on times scale seems more fitting. This would be a blanket nerf to many chars who use stun knife alone, let alone building into splitter. @Doom, I've made more use from Smasher or FoE on Zera than splitter. In fact I refuse to use splitter on Zera and still easily do well with him. I just hate the free stuns.

 

Keep the active. I.e. When active, user splits time, for x amount time. Hero x gains 100% increase in time scale for x amount seconds with a fairly long cool down. Would enable chase and attack speed, similar to free stuns, but allows the enemy to still move freely, while active users gains time scale. Sort of like a reverse chronosphere on user, without slowing other heroes down, just speeds up the active user. As if they are walking through time faster.

 

P.s. add a cool animation on active user to show they are "splitting time".

Edited April 14, 2015 by NeVeRWiN

[hbogyt]

More OP than Masamune.

[Spooky]

Oh a 3400 mineral item to counter a 1535 mineral item seems real fair right, and on top of that it is absolutely neccesary for survival, items like that are generaly removed because they are way to good. You have yet to give a good reason as to why stun knife at the very least shouldn't be removed, the parallel in dota has a very short ranged 2 second stun and is a good 10% more expensive then any other item in the game, and people canspend 10 minutes farming a regualr late ame item, if you are decnt you can get stun knife on your first back and timesplitter generally after the first teamfight

Parallax was suggested as counter to Rancor, not to Time Splitter. U don't need Parallax against it, because 2 mini stuns aren't such a big deal. Of course when hero like Rancor is trying to abuse his stun lock potential then Parallax becomes necessary. U would need exactly same item against Tosh even if wouldn't get it. U may skip Parallax if u have good positioning behind your team, but I'm guessing its not a case.

 

The only concern I have about that item is it also provides evasion. It used make item very powerful pick some time ago. But since many news item were introduced it very rarely used on carries, especially range carries. Its still common item on melee carries, but isn't necessary. Pubs is different story because they are more 1v1 oriented. So items gives nice advantage in such a situations. However it also reduce your potential damage output.

 

So I don't see any reason why we should remove that item. There are much better picks anyway. Item is more situational. U may need it against Unix for example, or Drake. Only one suggestion worth to consider was to make it less effective on range heroes.

[SayMyName]

Remove the stun from time splitter, it would be a new game. Make time splitter more like it's intended name. Some sort of increase on times scale seems more fitting. This would be a blanket nerf to many chars who use stun knife alone, let alone building into splitter. @Doom, I've made more use from Smasher or FoE on Zera than splitter. In fact I refuse to use splitter on Zera and still easily do well with him. I just hate the free stuns.

 

Keep the active. I.e. When active, user splits time, for x amount time. Hero x gains 100% increase in time scale for x amount seconds with a fairly long cool down. Would enable chase and attack speed, similar to free stuns, but allows the enemy to still move freely, while active users gains time scale. Sort of like a reverse chronosphere on user, without slowing other heroes down, just speeds up the active user. As if they are walking through time faster.

 

P.s. add a cool animation on active user to show they are "splitting time".

 

100% increased timescale? Do not be offented, but it looks like you have no idea what you are talking about, roflmao.

_________

 

As related to topic:

 

I will write it as short as possible cause it would take too long to describe it more in details

 

There are some problems about the game, but it goes more deep into overall mechanics of game, farm dependence (almost every hero scaling high in terms of dmg) and blurred roles. This leads to cc being insanely strong in this game. This leaves only option of soft cc fitting in the game (slows etc) instead of hard cc (stuns esp long duration), but thats how the game is made.

 

Shortly if you removed cc from carries and gave int cc item - then int supports (in high degree casters,magic dmg dealers saying more straight in this game) would become overpowered