Johannes Posted March 2, 2015 Report Share Posted March 2, 2015 The reason I am saying this is because I have almost always been out burst by carries when playing burst casters I was two shot by a non fed nova in under a second, no caster save for an extraordinarily fed Cyprus could ever hope to do that Carries also have huge mobility and sustain meaning they win almost any match up Now I'm going to ask trick question: is overpowered in pub or underpowered in i house better? I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZERATUL Posted March 2, 2015 Report Share Posted March 2, 2015 I can agree a bit with you. I would say this goes for few carries only(darpa, avanger). Are you trying to say you shouldn't be killed rly fast if int burster gets in let's say darpas range? Cypres isn't a tank, he has rly low all defensive stats. Of course some carries do need nerfs(in my opinion only darpa and avanger), but I think it's more about items. There are some rly ridicilous mid/late game items as sliptide, galactic probobly few more. If those items would get changed, game speed lowered, you would see how positioning will get much more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted March 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2015 The problem is that carries gap closers let them easily close the range with casters then outburst them with no skills required Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSkittles Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 The problem is that carries gap closers let them easily close the range with casters then outburst them with no skills required kuradel and cow dont exactly require skill and still rekt :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taznkid Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) The problem is that carries gap closers let them easily close the range with casters then outburst them with no skills required Burst casters often have mobility spells of their own. Here is how the "caster vs DPS" match up works in my opinion: Casters, with their spells, generally have higher effective range than DPS, and so can poke at a distance and whittle away health (I say whittle, but it's more like giant chunks) DPS, obviously do better damage, but must get within range Also...I hope you aren't getting like no health items and then saying that DPS are OP. Run some defensive talents, and grab some health. I guarantee you should have some time to at least react, assuming no fed DPS Casters also generally have better access to CC. Frankly, I think that Cyprus or Cow are way stronger than DPS...I've built around 60% spell resist with over 3000 health on a DPS, and still got killed with just 1 combo by cow/cyprus. I agree that casters take more skill, but that's just how MOBA's work. I personally do not understand your qualm, since I don't feel it myself. An In-House situation generally has proper countermeasures, and in pubs I've wrecked DPS with casters plenty of times. Also...win any match-up? Lord Zhyrkan can 1v1 most, if not all, agility DPS if built properly. Probably the only 2 that he MAY (notice that may) not be able to do so with are Penthos and Zeratul, and Darpa (because he is just way too strong right now). If you are still having trouble...buy a Swordbreaker. It's pretty cheap. Edited March 3, 2015 by taznkid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCV Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 The issue is stun knife, remove it and everything will be good. Jaysi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysi Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Yes, stun knife is a problem. Also, this brings up the debate of why do ranged DPS get escapes when melee DPS are the ones who really need them for initiation and escape. SCV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted March 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 I have yet to see an lz who doesn't fail wall his team to death during lag, and believe me as l I've lost 1v1's to Boros because he can get super fed off of casters really easily, another of my complaints remove the spell immunity on boros's q and compensate for it by making his spells actually cast when they are supposed to. And sword breaker sucks it is expensive gives bad stats has a very short range active that requires you to get into aa range to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysi Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 I have yet to see an lz who doesn't fail wall his team to death during lag, and believe me as l I've lost 1v1's to Boros because he can get super fed off of casters really easily, another of my complaints remove the spell immunity on boros's q and compensate for it by making his spells actually cast when they are supposed to. And sword breaker sucks it is expensive gives bad stats has a very short range active that requires you to get into aa range to use. Whaaaaat? Sounds like you suffer from quite a bit of lag in reference to LZ and Boros... Sword breaker expensive? Is that a joke? The stats arnt great late game, except for the evasion, that's immeasurable. Well, not quite, but it's essentially -25% weapon damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZERATUL Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Boros is most broken hero atm.. Darkr and GhostDragon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spooky Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 I have different opinion here. U not suppose to win 1v1 against carry as burst damage hero. U shouldn't even have small chance. Burst damage heroes job is to stay behind the team and do damage to anything getting close, especially enemy carries. And every carry player will know how hard is to play against good burst damage player, when at start of engagement u already lost half life. So basically its all about positioning. If u are overexposed as burst damage hero, don't expect to not get focused and killed. Late game is different story, when carries can't tank much more because of items mentioned in other posts and kill any low armor hero with 3-4 shots. Burst damage heroes still can do significant amount of damage though. If u have problem staying alive - consider fortify talent. Should help u a lot. Speaking about carries overall - I think it requires different topic. Obviously there are some better, others can be considered OP. But actually same u may say about some burst damage heroes. Cow and Raynor are both considered extremely strong while Cow is auto banned since some time. LameDude 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaldi Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Warpshard is pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted March 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Since when was lz a burster? Although most aa heroes effectively have caster level burst simply by their aa damage Edit: it's kinda hard to spell with a fifteen second delay on text being visible Edited March 3, 2015 by Johannes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaldi Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Do some sums and prove your claims please. At the moment I think your claims are Baseless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted March 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) A non fed nova can get 500 aa damage and with timeplitter damage and guaranteed 2.5x crit that goes to around 2.5k dps Edit: my bad forgot about the passive bonus crit damage on nova's w so the critd would be more along the lines of 2.8x bringing the damage somewhere into around 3k per sec with two ministuns. Edited March 3, 2015 by Johannes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhaleTits Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Crit is not +1.5x... it is +.6x or +.9x with Khali/executioners. and novas passive is one attack. Also a 500 wpn dmg nova is like, 5 item glass cannon. Regardless I think you will find most burst caster combos to exceed that or offer significant aoe, or both. Also I think there is a vernacular issue at hand because most aos players consider only aa heroes as carries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martY Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 The other piece of the puzzle is the circumstantial evidence. It helps to post replays so we have context to accompany these claims. Quite often people claim "op" and "broken" when it's simply because they fed their squishies to the same enemy carry 8 times and now find themselves in very deep shap. To echo Spooky, during the late game things happen realllllllll fast and you can cost your team the game with a minor positioning mistake. Doesn't necessarily mean the enemy carry is op, just means you or someone on your team flobed up. And just one note on items like Swordbreaker: your primary carry shouldn't be buying that. Let someone else disable the enemy carry so yours can wipe the floor with the other team in a few seconds. GhostDragon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxwell Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Boros is most broken hero atm.. U just bad, learn to counter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BestPlayer Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Among many other problems with this game, the fact that carries have much too easy earlygame coupled with much too few disables to counter them lategame is pretty damn gnagbnagsta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted March 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Idk how to post replays and it's not just their DPS the lag benefits them by making it very hard to land skillshots and impossible to run away from. Also Zeratul's ult is a complete get out of jail free card that everyone hates nearly as much as the bubble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revision Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 I'll take a take a get out of jail free card over a 6 second aoe stun any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysi Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 I'll take a take a get out of jail free card over a 6 second aoe stun any day. Only in monopoly, as it might take you 6 turns to get out of jail. But if you never land in jail... then the 6s aoe stun is op. Plus, who says the 6s aoe stun wouldn't already get you out of jail? Then I realized we were talking about Zera. Mind blown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamantium Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 In monopoly you only have 3 turns to sit in jail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogwarts Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 I dont know why stun knife exist in the game. It just seems silly to give your marks man a stun on demand SCV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCV Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 I dont know why stun knife exist in the game. It just seems silly to give your marks man a stun on demand Totally agree. stun knife basically give carries a way to snowball much easier then normal, with a cheap investment 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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