The Versatility of C4 Gauss Cannon

[taznkid]

I am making this post to introduce the idea of the significance of this item.

 

To start off:

 

What is needed if one decides to deal damage with Auto-Attacks?

1. Weapon Speed

2. Weapon Damage

3. Armor Penetration

4. Ability to stick to target

 

I consider C4 extremely powerful, because it provides 3 of the above 4.

 

I have recently been playing Rancor and many INT heroes as Caster-DPS Hybrids, utilizing the versatility that C4 provides.

 

Simply put: with Cerebros+C4 Gauss Cannon, you basically have near maximum weapon speed.

 

With the Active (which has a extremely low CD), you can generally stick well to targets

 

C4 comes with Armor Penetration, so you don't have to worry about that~!

 

Basically, one can build INT on a caster like normal, then throw in this item, and you instantly have a caster with a reasonable Auto-Attack threat with a very small decrease to Spell Damage.

 

Using a popular INT hero DPS, Jakk Summers as an example:

 

I build:

 

Duran's Pendant-->Lightning Rod--->Ihan Crystal--->Gravity Edge--->C4 Gauss Cannon/Nitrogen Retrofit--->C4 Gauss Cannon/Nitrogen Retrofit--->Yamato Reactor/Argus Crystal--->Yamato Reactor/Argus Crystal

 

I can tell you, it is extremely fun to kite Melee Heroes by using both Yamato Reactor and C4's Actives at the same time.

 

Now having said that, Star's Fury is probably a better choice if you can proc it frequently properly. But if you are a noob like me, being able to Auto-Attack your enemies to death after launching your spells is pretty nice.

[Doom]

Int dps don't want armor pen since their AA damage is generally low. When people want to counter int they build spell resist, not armor anyway, so its effects are negligible. weapon speed is nice, active is nice, but pyre gives cdr as well as wep speed, and timesplitter is broken as flob no matter who you get it on. Also, include E.Saber in your build. It's not quite so strong on int anymore since amount of energy from int is nerfed, but it will still give a good ~130 weapon damage anyhow. After it's nerf, I have not bought Star Fury, atom smasher now outweighs it in utility and early game damage, as well as stronger defense stats (you only get powerstrike on int if you cannot oneshot someone with your combo, thus atom smasher is better since you can surivive long enough with it to cast at least part of the combo again).

Edited February 27, 2015 by Doom

[residente]

Int dps don't want armor pen since their AA damage is generally low.

 

Having 400-500 INT will give you a pretty decent AA damage.

Edited February 27, 2015 by residente

[Spooky]

Having 400-500 INT will give you a pretty decent AA damage.

And also there is Energy Saber :)

[Jaysi]

There's a lot of times when I'm playing a hard carry and skip this item. Typically, I already have max weapon speed from Arcbound plus other random agility/CoA and I actually contemplate getting a second xenomorph (I think that's what it's called?) To max my armor pen, while adding the 50 damage, even though the unique doesn't stack, but if I have max weapon speed and their team doesn't have strong slows/reasons for me to need the gauss cannon active then I don't generally like to get it.

 

I can see where it might be useful against certain heroes slows, but generally I would agree with Doom when it comes to armor pen on a burst caster/hybrid.

 

Also guys... Rancor is an agility hero so all of that Int doesn't help his weapon damage unlike summers and null.

 

I mean, I've definitely seen some effective summers with this items active, but I think it depends on enemy heroes/comp on whether or not to get it. These are just some of my thought processes behind the item and decisions, I've never crunched any numbers.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Jaysi

[taznkid]

There's a lot of times when I'm playing a hard carry and skip this item. Typically, I already have max weapon speed from Arcbound plus other random agility/CoA and I actually contemplate getting a second xenomorph (I think that's what it's called?) To max my armor pen, while adding the 50 damage, even though the unique doesn't stack, but if I have max weapon speed and their team doesn't have strong slows/reasons for me to need the gauss cannon active then I don't generally like to get it.

 

I can see where it might be useful against certain heroes slows, but generally I would agree with Doom when it comes to armor pen on a burst caster/hybrid.

 

Also guys... Rancor is an agility hero so all of that Int doesn't help his weapon damage unlike summers and null.

 

I mean, I've definitely seen some effective summers with this items active, but I think it depends on enemy heroes/comp on whether or not to get it. These are just some of my thought processes behind the item and decisions, I've never crunched any numbers.

I didn't explain how this works on Rancor, because I posted my "Caster-DPS Hybrid Build" for Rancor....but clearly nobody even bothered to look at that.

 

Rancor does not benefit from the INT he stacks, but he benefits from Agility, which gives him more powerful options such as Timesplitter, Sliptide Scythe (what I normally get), Shinobi Style, etc.

 

Anyway, for reference, here is my final Rancor build (with Ihan Stacks):

Gravity Edge

Nitrogen Retrofit

Cerebros

C4 Gauss Cannon

Sliptide Scythe

Energy Saber

 

From this, I get around 300 INT and 300 Weapon Damage on Rancor, plus Sliptide synergizes pretty nicely with Nitrogen Retrofit and Gravity Edge. Being a Agility Hero, Rancor fully benefits from Sliptide's Agility Stat, something INT heroes do not.

 

Also, I did not mention Energy Saber in the Original Post because I thought that was pretty much a given....I mean it gives the highest potential weapon damage in the game even after the nerf.

 

This post is mostly because I am so very confused by people building INT heroes (like Raynor) like Agility carries, when you can simply build INT, throw in a C4 Gauss Cannon, and get basically the same effectiveness, PLUS the original Spell Damage as a caster.

 

My assertion is that C4 allows you the versatility to build Caster-DPS on many heroes; obviously, this means you will be a weaker caster than full INT, or weaker DPS than a Agility Carry, but it means you have burst that Agility Carries do not have, and sustained DPS that Casters do not.

 

Frankly, the above Rancor build I gave above is pretty much how I play Rancor now, because his Spell Damage late game (heck, even mid game) is flobbing pathetic.

[taznkid]

Int dps don't want armor pen since their AA damage is generally low. When people want to counter int they build spell resist, not armor anyway, so its effects are negligible. weapon speed is nice, active is nice, but pyre gives cdr as well as wep speed, and timesplitter is broken as flob no matter who you get it on. Also, include E.Saber in your build. It's not quite so strong on int anymore since amount of energy from int is nerfed, but it will still give a good ~130 weapon damage anyhow. After it's nerf, I have not bought Star Fury, atom smasher now outweighs it in utility and early game damage, as well as stronger defense stats (you only get powerstrike on int if you cannot oneshot someone with your combo, thus atom smasher is better since you can surivive long enough with it to cast at least part of the combo again).

Apologize for double post. Should have just multi-quoted.

 

Pyre is nice, but the Unique is pretty useless late game imo without some form of Armor Pen.

 

Timesplitter I agree is very powerful, but INT casters do not fully benefit from its stats, plus Timesplitter+Cerebros would not give you max weapon speed.

 

Atom Smasher is just broken. The only reason I don't complain about it is that you can get it on basically any hero and do well. Except Narud I suppose.

[WhaleTits]

I would add crit, and probably lifesteal to that list (essentially offensive stats that an AA hero wants)

[OPReN]

whenever i see someone mentioning himself being good in pub with specific strategy, i say same thing

int shadow also goes godlike in pub

 

mixing build's isn't really good

you rather focus on pure int or pure dps

just go to test mode, compare your damage dealt to obelisk

[taznkid]

whenever i see someone mentioning himself being good in pub with specific strategy, i say same thing

int shadow also goes godlike in pub

 

mixing build's isn't really good

you rather focus on pure int or pure dps

just go to test mode, compare your damage dealt to obelisk

Well if it bothers you that much:

 

I went 15-7 with the above build in a In-House too.

 

Happy?

[OPReN]

Well if it bothers you that much:

 

I went 15-7 with the above build in a In-House too.

 

Happy?

And that means nothing

You coulda done better if you didn't mix up build since it simply deals more damage

[Midknight]

It's all a matter of proportion; does incorporating the cannon give more back than it costs? You can't look at the loss of DPS from sacrificing an Int item in a vacuum; you must take it in context. It's all about net profit. If a company spends $1,000 in order to earn $9,000, they've made $8,000 profit. You can't just look at the $1,000 cost and say, "Well, if they hadn't spent that money, they'd do better because they'd have $1,000 more right now." So how do you know that someone "would have done better" if they hadn't mixed it up? Without objective, rigorous testing, you have no way of knowing which is better. For all you know, he could have done worse if he hadn't mixed it up. Additionally, K/D isn't what the game is about; the game is about taking out the artifact and that requires a myriad of different variables. I've seen teams lose despite having objectively better K/D, just because they focused too much on killing and didn't push effectively. Especially with the new-ish mechanic where the damage you do to towers being based on your primary stat rather than straight up attack damage, an Int caster who bolsters high attack speed coupled with high Int can significantly help in pushing down towers. He may take a small hit to overall ability damage output, but that's in exchange for a big jump in farming, pushing, and he even makes up some of that DPS against heroes because his AA is more effective. I tried this method on Anthrax and even against a well-built shadow and zera with 3x leaver bonus, I was able to finish them both off 1v2 and survive with a sliver of health. So this kind of build isn't without merit and isn't "strictly inferior" to a full caster build. It all boils down to this: Which would you rather have, 100% caster potential and 10% AA or 95% caster potential and 50% AA?

[taznkid]

It's all a matter of proportion; does incorporating the cannon give more back than it costs? You can't look at the loss of DPS from sacrificing an Int item in a vacuum; you must take it in context. It's all about net profit. If a company spends $1,000 in order to earn $9,000, they've made $8,000 profit. You can't just look at the $1,000 cost and say, "Well, if they hadn't spent that money, they'd do better because they'd have $1,000 more right now." So how do you know that someone "would have done better" if they hadn't mixed it up? Without objective, rigorous testing, you have no way of knowing which is better. For all you know, he could have done worse if he hadn't mixed it up. Additionally, K/D isn't what the game is about; the game is about taking out the artifact and that requires a myriad of different variables. I've seen teams lose despite having objectively better K/D, just because they focused too much on killing and didn't push effectively. Especially with the new-ish mechanic where the damage you do to towers being based on your primary stat rather than straight up attack damage, an Int caster who bolsters high attack speed coupled with high Int can significantly help in pushing down towers. He may take a small hit to overall ability damage output, but that's in exchange for a big jump in farming, pushing, and he even makes up some of that DPS against heroes because his AA is more effective. I tried this method on Anthrax and even against a well-built shadow and zera with 3x leaver bonus, I was able to finish them both off 1v2 and survive with a sliver of health. So this kind of build isn't without merit and isn't "strictly inferior" to a full caster build. It all boils down to this: Which would you rather have, 100% caster potential and 10% AA or 95% caster potential and 50% AA?

Thank you, someone understands.

 

Basically, I'm trying to assert that this build suggestion is not necessarily better, but simply another option. I sort of got the idea in a pub where my DPS were terrible and as a caster, I couldn't do any real meaningful damage to the enemy tank (since Star's Fury got nerfed).

 

Throwing in C4 solved that. Now, the enemy Mandrake couldn't simply just shrug off my spells and run in at me, because I had a credible threat with Auto-Attacks.

 

Furthermore, in most scenarios, all you are doing is simply switching in C4 Gauss Cannon for a INT item. So what? That's a loss of like....70 INT? Does your Spell Damage really take that much of a hit? It's not like I'm saying you should replace core Caster items like Gravity Edge, Argus Crystal, etc.

Edited March 1, 2015 by taznkid

[OPReN]

It's all a matter of proportion; does incorporating the cannon give more back than it costs? You can't look at the loss of DPS from sacrificing an Int item in a vacuum; you must take it in context. It's all about net profit. If a company spends $1,000 in order to earn $9,000, they've made $8,000 profit. You can't just look at the $1,000 cost and say, "Well, if they hadn't spent that money, they'd do better because they'd have $1,000 more right now."

Not if there was a obvious way to earn $9000 and they didn't want to so they only earn'ed $8000

i think you're too lazy to do some math so i will do it for you

 

 

1.grav+argus+gauss cannon+900 cd item(the component of tpi)

->11700 mineral with ((70+base damage) physical+60 spell)X29/20(weapon speed)

2.gauss cannon+xenomorph(the other armor pen item)+sliptide

->11300 mineral with ((75+base damage) physical+40 spell)X29/20(weapon speed)X6/5(sliptide bonus)

+38 spell armor+14% movement speed

 

int -> for burst with your skills

dps -> sustain damage

 

why would you mix int and dps

it's like going BHM with dps hero

before pyre change, its bonus damage scaled with int

that was the only reason summer got pyre

Edited March 1, 2015 by OPReN

[Midknight]

And what did that demonstrate? You compared two drastically different things and didn't even explain your conclusion; you just said, "see, I'm right." Compare a full Int build vs a full Int build with one item (not a key item like Argus or Gravity, mind you) replaced with a C4 and actually show what percentage of effective spell damage you lose compared to how much you go up in AA and state your conclusion outright. This isn't about making an Int caster comparable to a full DPS, it's about your fundamental premise, that replacing a caster item with a C4 won't make you as good as a DPS carry is flawed from the outset.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Midknight

[taznkid]

And what did that demonstrate? You compared two drastically different things and didn't even explain your conclusion; you just said, "see, I'm right." Compare a full Int build vs a full Int build with one item (not a key item like Argus or Gravity, mind you) replaced with a C4 and actually show what percentage of effective spell damage you lose compared to how much you go up in AA and state your conclusion outright. This isn't about making an Int caster comparable to a full DPS, it's about so your fundamental premise, that replacing a caster item with a C4 won't make you as good as a DPS carry is flawed from the outset.

I think you forgot the rest of your clause there.

[Midknight]

Yeah, I decided to go a different direction with that sentence and I guess I didn't backspace enough. Corrected.

[OPReN]

And what did that demonstrate? You compared two drastically different things and didn't even explain your conclusion; you just said, "see, I'm right." Compare a full Int build vs a full Int build with one item (not a key item like Argus or Gravity, mind you) replaced with a C4 and actually show what percentage of effective spell damage you lose compared to how much you go up in AA and state your conclusion outright. This isn't about making an Int caster comparable to a full DPS, it's about your fundamental premise, that replacing a caster item with a C4 won't make you as good as a DPS carry is flawed from the outset.

go to TM test it urself

i cant get on sc2 rip

the thing is in lategame, their int/dps will have some mobility hence you are not hitting them all day..

stars fury,grav,argus,yamato,cerebro,warpshard

you can one shot pretty much every hero except for tanks

in 1vs1 situation against their dps, he will just out-dps you tho

if you are planning on sitting and hitting them all day, just go pure dps so you actually get more damage per seconds

[taznkid]

go to TM test it urself

i cant get on sc2 rip

the thing is in lategame, their int/dps will have some mobility hence you are not hitting them all day..

stars fury,grav,argus,yamato,cerebro,warpshard

you can one shot pretty much every hero except for tanks

in 1vs1 situation against their dps, he will just out-dps you tho

if you are planning on sitting and hitting them all day, just go pure dps so you actually get more damage per seconds

Depends on what you are playing.

 

Also, if you can't land hits using C4 active, then something is wrong with you.

[Adamantium]

I like mixing builds but I'm pretty sure its less effective than purely pursing one path. You're trying to become a jack of all trades like Vorpal. Because of his design Vorpal cannot Carry like Nova Darpa Avenger Shadow, cannot Tank like Drake Micro Erekul Dehaka, and cannot Burst like Cow, Cyprus Vergil. It's the same with your hybrid rancor. Late game with a full INT build, if you cannot burst a Nova down, you better hightail it out of there because once your stun is done Nova will easily out-trade your measly AA's with your 150 Weapon Damage against her 500. And her leech will probably outheal your AA damage. So you consider building some AA. Well you have to sacrifice INT for that which will hurt your burst. So you'll burst less but make up for it with your AA. Still if your burst and attacks during your snipe isn't enough to finish off the Nova she'll auto attack you, out-trade, and kill you. It's like a lose-lose situation because an equally equipped rancor is not supposed to be able to 1v1 a carry. Thus I believe it is more effective to purely pursue your role as a support caster.

Edited March 5, 2015 by AtomiK

[taznkid]

I like mixing builds but I'm pretty sure its less effective than purely pursing one path. You're trying to become a jack of all trades like Vorpal. Because of his design Vorpal cannot Carry like Nova Darpa Avenger Shadow, cannot Tank like Drake Micro Erekul Dehaka, and cannot Burst like Cow, Cyprus Vergil. It's the same with your hybrid rancor. Late game with a full INT build, if you cannot burst a Nova down, you better hightail it out of there because once your stun is done Nova will easily out-trade your measly AA's with your 150 Weapon Damage against her 500. And her leech will probably outheal your AA damage. So you consider building some AA. Well you have to sacrifice INT for that which will hurt your burst. So you'll burst less but make up for it with your AA. Still if your burst and attacks during your snipe isn't enough to finish off the Nova she'll auto attack you, out-trade, and kill you. It's like a lose-lose situation because an equally equipped rancor is not supposed to be able to 1v1 a carry. Thus I believe it is more effective to purely pursue your role as a support caster.

Wtf 150 weapon damage? It's more like 300-350 FYI

[OPReN]

and agi carry will have around 60% physical resist while you have like 30% (not sure the exact value but agi carry has def higher armor) 300-350 wp damage with no armor pen is nothing that time

[taznkid]

and agi carry will have around 60% physical resist while you have like 30% (not sure the exact value but agi carry has def higher armor) 300-350 wp damage with no armor pen is nothing that time

So since when is C4 Gauss Cannon not a Armor Penetration item?

[OPReN]

oh well nvm 15%

i mean it's obviously less dps than pure carry

pretty much what adam said above

[taznkid]

I'm curious why everyone is comparing using a 1v1 scenario with a carry.

 

Why not a tank?

 

I got the idea, because sometimes you simply need more DPS to deal with a tank, because unless your Cyprus or Cow (and maybe Dustin) you are going to be doing pitifully little spell damage to a tank in exchange for using up all your spells.

 

I personally don't like the idea of putting a agility carry build on a INT Caster hero either (like the many DPS Raynors I've been seeing in IH recently), because then all your spells are kinda pointless.

Edited March 5, 2015 by taznkid