My Opinion on Balance/Needed Changes: Part 3

[taznkid]

1. Biotron. Tyrannus

Problem: Ultimate is too easy countered. You can basically life leech off of the infected civilians, throw a smoke, use a movement booster, etc.

 

Suggested Solution: Honestly might just need a rework, or make the civilians invulnerable during the duration of the ultimate.

 

2. Voidbearer. Kuradel

Problem: Ultimate is a AoE mass stun that also deals a shap-load of damage. It's like Cyprus got a gigantic boulder to ult a entire team with, and you're stunned on top of that.

 

Suggested Solution: Reduce the damage of the Ultimate.

 

3. Khyrak:

Problem: The burrow move ability (I don't know it's name, since I never have played the guy), if you consider it, is basically a Drake Ultimate with an extremely low cooldown that can also be used for mobility, and you don't even need to land a skill shot pull to use it. Drake is considered a Tier 1 tank in part due to his mass stun-lock ult, and you have that as a basic ability on this guy.

 

Suggested Solution: Make the heroes hit by this ability invulnerable while in the air.

 

4. Omega. Starscream

Problem: Q and R still have completely different scaling! What is this!

 

Suggested Solution: Make them scale appropriately already!

 

5. Tiberius. Rancor

Problem: His ultimate is pretty terrible now. Used to be that skilled Rancor players could land nukes on escaping players. Now it takes so freaking long to land that it's essentially impossible to land it unless there's a reason why they can't dodge it, or the enemy is too stupid to do so.

 

Suggested Solution: Reduce landing time of nuke, or maybe change it to like in actual Starcraft 2 in that the Ultimate is seen only as a small red dot to enemies.

 

6. Entaro. Tassadar

Problem: Maybe he is fine, but I don't ever see him in In-House or even in pubs for that matter. You are forced to build INT since his abilities scale from INT, but he also needs a smattering of other items, so changing Gravity and adding Argus Crystal was a indirect nerf to Tassadar in that he now deals less Spell Damage, or needs to waste another inventory space to get Argus Crystal. His clone still gets insta-pwned by everything btw.

 

Suggested Solution: Not only do I not know what the problem is, I don't even know if there IS a problem! Just felt that I should bring it up.

 

7. Alpha. Crackling

Problem: If we're honest, what can Crackling really do that Leo or Grunty can't do better?

 

Suggested Solution: Might just need new rework, or certain buffs to scaling.

 

8. Geminus. Boros

Problem: He's strong, but very difficult to play in late game. His strongest abilities, Psionic Bola and Omnislash, can be ruined by creeps. Where do most team fights occur late game? In-lane. What is there alot of in-lane? Creeps.

 

Suggested Solution: As I have said, he's still pretty strong, I just find it annoying that I can't bola or use ultimate near the enemy's tier 3 towers because there are so many damn creeps around.

 

9. Egon. Stetman

Problem: Again, don't really think there is any, but I don't ever see him picked in In-House so I'm wondering if there is something wrong with the guy.

 

Suggested Solution: Not applicable.

 

10. Greelus. Humankind

Problem: Ever since his Ultimate was nerfed/reworked, you don't see him in In-House compositions. His Q is weird now, in that you do extra damage for auto-attacks, which, in my opinion, does not really fit with his role as a tanky support caster.

 

11. Isomorphic Pyre

Problem: Arcbound/Khali Blade seems to do more damage even on tanks. Correct me if I am wrong on this.

 

Suggested Solution: Buff scaling/nerf Crit damage in some way

[OPReN]

Bio : No he's considered strong

Oracle : i think this guy is good counter for melee dpss(e.g, zera shadow) but pretty bad agains't others imo hes fine

Starscream/vorpal : ya they shouldn't saperate scaling i agree

Rancor : hes fine

crackling/leo : they should be stronger than now since they're melee.. like zera shadow. Melee hero needs some advantage

Boros : hes fine

Egon : whale said it's gonna get reworked. No matter egon is good or not its just boring to play lol

Pyre : it does more damage but the thing is....... aa hero needs some mobility to survive or fight like arcbound/gauss cannon

i like going arcbound+gauss cannon but ive seen dps going pyre and doing well so it's up to their choice

[Head]

I enjoy reading these

1. Biotron's ultimate gets weak as you progress the game but he is not supposed to be an assassin. That's why his ult now strips away resistances so it has team utility. His ult almost always requires a response, whether it be running away or having a teammate kill the minions, both which are useful in teamfight

 

2. Voidbearer has no teleport unlike cyprus so I'd be okay with this mid range burst, but probably going to be nerfed

 

3. This is technically Khyrak's only mobility and ranged spell (forget that ult). It is strong when chained with other cc but otherwise is dangerous only when he gets atom smasher.

 

4. I've heard this so many times now. Q is strong, builds off his weapon damage, as it should since he is a bruiser. His R at level 16 is what, 150 spell damage +90% int? Per second for 10 seconds? That is 1500 spell damage and 900% int if it all hits one unit. I sure hope it doesn't have same scaling as his weapon damage

 

5. Rancor is vision king, and with his stun now being less than the perfect initiation/disengage I think he is in good place

 

6. Don't know enough about Tass

 

7. Yea

 

8. I think Boros has utility all game b/c of his bola. If he can't catch a hero with that bola and isolate the hero, that is his fault.

 

9. Egon op

 

10. Greelus is a nasty lane bully that steals energy. Then in teamfights he reks + amplifies everyone with his ultimate. I think he's good, I wish teammates could proc the Q debuff damage (without slow), but that is too strong

 

11. dunno depends on situation

[HarryHootie]

are you serious? kuradel doesnt need a nerf at all, in fact its probably a easier stun to hit, but Nulls ulti combined with his missile is a huger stun probably later his w is going to get nerfed which was in a alright place but it gets a damage reduction while Jakk minefield, cows skillset, and maars balls dont? Cyprus and Null are better choices for dps they got much more utlity while kuradel has the dangerous 2 passive that increase his dmg that makes it hurt, also I never seen a kuradel player in a while that owns

also the damage on the ulti doesnt do much when when your at full hp when hit by it and his E passive would back up the damage if you were missing some hp, I would stars fury on him since the damage would be strong enough to make a worthwhile aoe damage and sets with my Q, but no Kuradel doesnt need a nerf if his W was nerfed then he would take alot longer to get online and his ulti doesnt need a nerf next patch too.

Edited February 1, 2015 by HarryHootie

[taznkid]

3. This is technically Khyrak's only mobility and ranged spell (forget that ult). It is strong when chained with other cc but otherwise is dangerous only when he gets atom smasher.

 

4. I've heard this so many times now. Q is strong, builds off his weapon damage, as it should since he is a bruiser. His R at level 16 is what, 150 spell damage +90% int? Per second for 10 seconds? That is 1500 spell damage and 900% int if it all hits one unit. I sure hope it doesn't have same scaling as his weapon damage

3. Drake has no mobility spell (I don't really count Martyr) at all, and usually requires a successful lance to use ultimate to fullest degree. Whereas Khyrak can just run in and do his thing. I feel like this reply is implying that Khyrak needs to do damage, but my problem with this ability is that it's such a strong disable with a relatively low cooldown, easy use, and large utility.

 

4. By the time his R is at level 16, Starscream will usually have around 300-400 Weapon Damage for his Q. Also, you're forgetting this:

 

Spell Resist makes his ultimate stupidly weak.

Scaling with Intelligence means that the damage is basically just pure Base Damage.

You are not guaranteed to hit every single shot.

 

Damage dealt over time is generally easier to deal with than the same amount of damage dealt instantaneously. Using your calculations, if we use Balrog for comparison, Balrog's ultimate does less damage. However (besides the fact that it is Physical Damage and so works with various uniques), it is dealt instantaneously, which is what makes it so dangerous. The burst.

 

The reason why Burst Casters are powerful, is that they deal alot of damage instantaneously, giving little time to react. Time to react means things like Recover, Healing Abilities, Kassia Crystal, Lifesteal, Eternal Drive, Regeneration, etc.

 

I mean the way I see it is this: Out of the various Strength Heroes that fill DPS roles, do you ever see Starscream picked for In-House?

 

No.

 

Why?

 

Because every other Strength DPS hero is better, since their ultimate isn't shap. Heck, even Kerrigan has those E stacks to power up that Ultimate Spam.

Edited February 1, 2015 by taznkid

[Head]

^

I mean that drake is stronger b/c lance is so much better than khyrak's q so I think no need to nerf khyrak q

 

And yea I know in practice the starscream ult is much different (worse) than from on paper, but I think the reason that it can deal so much damage on paper is why no ulti buff for starscream

[Destroyer]

I think the reason starscream isn't picked much has more to do with the fact that nobody plays him then that he is weak.

[EterNity]

Bio is no where near weak.

 

People like Destroyer, David, and a few others can play an unstoppable Bio in In House let alone pubs.

[Doom]

1. Biotron. Tyrannus

Problem: Ultimate is too easy countered. You can basically life leech off of the infected civilians, throw a smoke, use a movement booster, etc.

 

Suggested Solution: Honestly might just need a rework, or make the civilians invulnerable during the duration of the ultimate.

 

Ult is stupid. It completely destroys some heroes, and is next to worthless against others. Furthermore it requires 0 skill. Rework pls. I'd rather he got back his old ultimate or even old e instead.

2. Voidbearer. Kuradel

Problem: Ultimate is a AoE mass stun that also deals a shap-load of damage. It's like Cyprus got a gigantic boulder to ult a entire team with, and you're stunned on top of that.

 

Suggested Solution: Reduce the damage of the Ultimate.

 

Ult does not do a lot of damage. His w and q deal more, with e and heroic passive strengthening all 3. Star Fury perhaps too strong on him. In any case, weaker than jackson at utility, weaker than cyprus at mobility and damage. Good middle ground between the two. Not even slightly op.

3. Khyrak:

Problem: The burrow move ability (I don't know it's name, since I never have played the guy), if you consider it, is basically a Drake Ultimate with an extremely low cooldown that can also be used for mobility, and you don't even need to land a skill shot pull to use it. Drake is considered a Tier 1 tank in part due to his mass stun-lock ult, and you have that as a basic ability on this guy.

 

Suggested Solution: Make the heroes hit by this ability invulnerable while in the air.

 

Play the guy before making balance calls. All I'm even going to say on the matter other than if anything, he's very slightly UP.

 

4. Omega. Starscream

Problem: Q and R still have completely different scaling! What is this!

 

Suggested Solution: Make them scale appropriately already!

 

You brought this up before. People told you. It's intended. It creates viable builds and choices. I don't see you bringing up Boros q, w and heroic scaling with int while ult with weapon damage. Or muta q with int and e and ult with weapon damage. Or quite a lot of other examples. If you make both scale with same thing he'll be stronger than devs want. I don't find him underpowered at the movement, so a buff is not needed. He's boring, but that's a different subject.

 

5. Tiberius. Rancor

Problem: His ultimate is pretty terrible now. Used to be that skilled Rancor players could land nukes on escaping players. Now it takes so freaking long to land that it's essentially impossible to land it unless there's a reason why they can't dodge it, or the enemy is too stupid to do so.

 

Suggested Solution: Reduce landing time of nuke, or maybe change it to like in actual Starcraft 2 in that the Ultimate is seen only as a small red dot to enemies.

 

Nuke-Snipe-Nuke-Nuke combo. Try it some time. It's not a skill for using on runners like raynor's ult. It's part of a combo, not a finisher. I think we can all agree that rancor hasn't got much trouble killing runners. Original ult was meant to be strictly used for heroes. The charges and relatively low cd of current nukes mean that at least some of the time they are supposed to be used on a wave, where this doesn't matter.

 

6. Entaro. Tassadar

Problem: Maybe he is fine, but I don't ever see him in In-House or even in pubs for that matter. You are forced to build INT since his abilities scale from INT, but he also needs a smattering of other items, so changing Gravity and adding Argus Crystal was a indirect nerf to Tassadar in that he now deals less Spell Damage, or needs to waste another inventory space to get Argus Crystal. His clone still gets insta-pwned by everything btw.

 

Suggested Solution: Not only do I not know what the problem is, I don't even know if there IS a problem! Just felt that I should bring it up.

 

You are not forced to build int. In fact it is generally better not to. You build proc-based items, so you might end up with an lrod, but items like superheated, atom smasher, etc are generally better. He's not fun to play, too reliant on passively farming in the early game where he is very weak. He is very good later on but his low range and kind of boring skillset leave him in a bad place. I don't really like playing him much..... needs change asap, not for balance but simply because of bad hero design.

 

7. Alpha. Crackling

Problem: If we're honest, what can Crackling really do that Leo or Grunty can't do better?

 

Suggested Solution: Might just need new rework, or certain buffs to scaling

 

Crackling can use an hp buff. He is different from grunty and leo. The former is a legitimate dps with strong ganking ability and skirmieshes. The later is a stricktly finisher that runs in after all cc and most of the burst was used and cleans up. Ling doesn't need someone to be low on hp to move fast, he has a decent ranged targeted blink, he has cc of his own. He can move in faster than leo, and his role is more of an assassin then cleaner that leo is. Ling is not even close to grunty in similarity, the perform way different functions, so I won't discuss him. Perhaps a buff to hp or his level 1 ult may be in order. If he doesn't get shut down early game, he's very scary later on, and snowballs out of control with very minimal prompting.

 

8. Geminus. Boros

Problem: He's strong, but very difficult to play in late game. His strongest abilities, Psionic Bola and Omnislash, can be ruined by creeps. Where do most team fights occur late game? In-lane. What is there alot of in-lane? Creeps.

 

Suggested Solution: As I have said, he's still pretty strong, I just find it annoying that I can't bola or use ultimate near the enemy's tier 3 towers because there are so many damn creeps around.

 

So you want to allow him to r click retardedly and win? He already does almost that. When I play Boros, and I do so quite often, I don't have any trouble in the lategame. It's your job to find openings for bola, or to force fights away from creeps. If you are incapable of doing that, don't pick him. He is not weak, he is not difficult, and is certainly not in need of a buff/change that will make any dumbass be able to play him with ease.

 

9. Egon. Stetman

Problem: Again, don't really think there is any, but I don't ever see him picked in In-House so I'm wondering if there is something wrong with the guy.

 

Suggested Solution: Not applicable.

 

Two problems. One, his attack animation sucks. Two, the optimal way of playing him is mashing all buttons. In need of rework for sure.

 

10. Greelus. Humankind

Problem: Ever since his Ultimate was nerfed/reworked, you don't see him in In-House compositions. His Q is weird now, in that you do extra damage for auto-attacks, which, in my opinion, does not really fit with his role as a tanky support caster.

 

His q provides great cc. His ultimate is one of the strongest in the game. His w and e are essentially shap, but other skills make up for it.

 

11. Isomorphic Pyre

Problem: Arcbound/Khali Blade seems to do more damage even on tanks. Correct me if I am wrong on this.

 

Suggested Solution: Buff scaling/nerf Crit damage in some way

 

Crits are the go-to thing for sure. Need to make pyre have an good active, though unsure what it should be.

 

Cannot believe you didn't mention zera, cyprus, lz, balrog, pentos, justicar, raynor, jackson as slightly op, or immortal, mk, unix, queen as boring to the point of wanting to rq, rm and never again pick them. Explosive and Star Fury quite op too, btw.

[taznkid]

Cannot believe you didn't mention zera, cyprus, lz, balrog, pentos, justicar, raynor, jackson as slightly op, or immortal, mk, unix, queen as boring to the point of wanting to rq, rm and never again pick them. Explosive and Star Fury quite op too, btw.

I feel that posts like this are necessary, which is why I make them....can't you be more polite with your responses than responding like I'm some ignorant twit?

 

I didn't mention Star's, because it is already getting a nerf, and Explosive I feel is only overpowered on Shadow.

 

Zeratul and Penthos get eaten up by silences.

Balrog I don't have a solution for other than an entire rework, but he sure is useful for killing that pesky Jackson

Raynor seems fine, except maybe the Marauders

Jackson requires a decent team to be useful and has decent counters

Cyprus is kinda glass cannon, such that with good decision making you are devastating, but if you make a mistake once you are dead. Does not mean I like getting insta-pwned constantly though.

LZ and Justicar I don't understand how the heck they are overpowered

 

The rest I just kind of forgot about :p

 

Now for your responses:

4. The difference is utility. What utility does Starscream ultimate give? Absolutely nothing. Boros SpellStorm gives Spell Resist and debuff immunity, Savage. Avenger's Q gives slow/reveal.

 

5. I learned the game with Rancor, so I think I know what I'm talking about. And guess what? 2nd Nuke sometimes misses even WITH the combo, and 3rd nuke is impossible to land if the target has half a brain to move the correct direction.

 

6. So you are only going to get proc based items? Good luck with your E providing you with basically no shields, Q doing almost no damage. Sure, you might be strong during mid game, but when late game hits when everyone has decent resist, how the hell do you plan on doing damage?

 

8. I expected a reply like this, so I even said He's strong but obviously people are willing to completely ignore statements that might counteract a caustic reply.

 

10. Not sure how Q provides GREAT cc....I mean it's just a slow isn't it? And the only one that procs the additional damage is yourself....I also never said anything about the Ultimate, I think it is fine the way it is.

[Doom]

I was in a poor mood while typing so I beg forgiveness for any hurt I caused. It IS ignorant to comment on a hero's balance before trying it at least 5 times yourself, and I hate everything in relation to bio because I always seem to pick a hero with no AoE or escape against him. Proc-Tassidar IS The meta, better tassidar players than I do it, and with good reason, it works. Kuradel facts were inaccurate. All of that put me strongly against you when I wrote the first replay.

 

To counter the more recent points you made:

 

Zeratul + Pentos. Zeratul very strong at the laning phase, which sets him up for a very strong lategame phase. Furthermore, when he initates properly, he planners, hits stun knife, and Q. Not only does that prevent the individual target from replying, but also uses all his offensive abilities, so even if you do reply all it will mean is that he cannot ult for a few seconds.Meanwhile he gets at least 4 good autoattacks, easily as many as 7. Personally I quite frequently run taser myself to end games quicker through rqs and frustration-surrenders. Pentos does get shut down quite a bit, which might make him reasonably balanced against decent people. I still think ult-E is too strong numbers-wise. He may be one of the less op heroes on the list but he is slightly op.

 

Raynor: precisely. Marauders are op, and If 3 skills and a passive are on par in balance and one ability too strong, the hero's too strong.

 

Cyprus is a glass cannon with incredible farm, and even better poke late game. Before a team fight starts, a good cyprus will have gotten off two q-ws removing a very good chunk off hp from everyone. With ihan and a nitro he has about 2.6 K hp, that's not nearly squishy enough to warrant that burst and poke, considering both its range and how easily he gets out. If the cyprus overcommits, uses e offencively to kill someone, and your team replys, killing 1 for 1, he probably removed a much more critical target than himself, while damaging others and taking a lot of your abilities. I win a higher percentage of games with him than any hero, save lz. He has a safe early game, and very strong lategame. That's the basis of OP.

 

Jackson: Every hero is very much better when they have a team to support them. Even heroes like shadow that carry games on their own are better when someone else goes in first and takes all the burst. Balance assumes equal team skill level. If your teammates are to dumb to a move after you combo, then it means that the enemy is too dumb to do anything about int stacking jackson, which is surprisingly strong, considering how everyone thinks of him as a purely int hero. Initiate stronk.

 

Justicar: I just hate this hero so my views are somewhat biased. Other people tell me he's in a good place, but I think it's too easy for a noob to do well with him. He deals damage, provides cc, and tanks well. His only weakness is short range, and there are a myriad of mobility items that solve that problem for him.

 

Lz: the most powerful hero in the game. Near max weapon speed with just coat of arms, very good weapon damage with just tank items, debuff imunity, and a great team support ult. He's a tank that deals as much damage as any dps lategame, while providing massive sheilds to allies. I play him vs every premade I face, and I have not lost a single game. They get fed early game, but it doesn't matter. Coat of Arms, FoE, Sliptide, Explosive Retrofit, DST, and some 6th item (usually taser, if the situation calls for it, cauterizer if against a very fed AA) and no one can do shap against you. Due to debuff imunity and movement speed disregards every counter for most AAs. Also counters every single popular pub-stomping hero. Rancor, Cyprus, Shadow, Nova, Darpa, Zera, Balrog, Warfield, leo, cain, none of them can stand a chance against LZ.

 

 

 

Back to your replies:

 

4: it gives damage, that's how much utility it gives. Same with cow heroic passive or boros heroic passive, or balrog ult (best single target int scale in the game, incidentally, excluding full spellstorm or tracking spider ticks) and especially vorpal ult. You rarely see people follow builds that scale with those attributes (int vorp slightly more common, but AA way stronger). If you were to make them scale of the same attribute, it would be like making rancor or vergil or cow int, making erekul str, making kerrigan agi, etc, etc. Q deals a lot of damage even if you stack int, ult even if you stack weapon damage. In any case, whale explicitly said that he wanted to keep it that way so that's just beating a dead horse...

 

5. A lot of people, myself included have. 2nd Nuke cannot miss with the combo, they are stunned for the entire duration.... they'd need debuff imunity + mobility to dodge it. Third, quite often yes. But rancor isn't exactly solo operative anymore, and all nukes are dropped in the middle of a team fight anyways,before people start disengaging, so that as many targets get hit as possible, as early as possible, so that all 5 get hit by before they die, so you can save single target spells for others. If the team is bad, you can drop it in between them and the back line will run away while you finish the front line. If it feel quicker it would be stronger, and as I recall the last complaint was Rancor op pls nurf, so.......

 

6. E is irrelevant. Q is irrelevant, except as an auto-atom smasher proc. W is worthless in most situations. Double procing atom smasher is where the strength of tass lies. 80 spell dps from superheated. You get AA items on top of that, as well as tank, focusing on strong uniques. I haven't played him since shadowmourne removal, so I have no idea what the proper, IH standard build order is now, but I suspect it has atom smasher, superheated, pyre, zenomorph, Explosive, etc in it, not int items.

 

8. Well what do you want to do about it? I mean I play the hero very frequently, and only feel minorly guilty about it. Making it easier would make me feel more guilty, so I wouldn't play it. Is that what you want?!!??! To rid the world off my flawless bolas!?!?!?

 

10: 50% doe. longer duration with autoattacks than even Micro's, and decent damage. It just means that you cannot Q someone, say peace and v to safety, you have to follow through to keep target slowed. In IHs he is picked solely for the ult, slightly for q. Is stupid how bad w and e are, and how good ult is but...... I guess what I'm saying is overall the hero is balanced.

[Head]

^ dang yea your cyprus is nasty

[taznkid]

^ dang yea your cyprus is nasty

A good cyprus always nasty in pubs :l

 

And thanks for apologizing Doom.

 

I don't like how Starscream's Q seems to do better damage than R. That's pretty much it. I just want it to be changed to either STR or Weapon Damage, and lower Base Damage and Scaling accordingly.

 

Zeratul is definitely one of the strongest jungling gankers in the game, but he seems to become less OP as game goes on.

 

As for Penthos...yeah, R+E is strong, but what does he have without it really?

 

Jackson I've been told that he isn't as good of a initiator as most people assume; I categorize initiation into Primary and Secondary, where Primary involves pulling like Drake, Brine, Boros, Micro, etc. , and Secondary is is charging in yourself like Balrog, LZ, Jackson, etc. I remember a game playing Micro against Jackson, and Jackson couldn't do anything because I kept silencing him when he ported in for Ulti.

 

Justicar getting those "myriad of mobility items" is very nearly a requirement, and thus takes away inventory space from items that could help to tank better. I've played Akasha and wondered how the heck to fit in all 3 Aura items, impact dial, silver soul, organic, and DST (in the end I usually sacrifice the Dial or Silver Soul).

 

LZ I have to agree is very powerful in pubs; in In-House, I feel that he can be dealt with accordingly. You aren't allowed to farm freely like in a pub (except this one time that I was jungle LZ), so building some damage takes time. Also, Balrog, Cain (depending on your freeze vs LZ debuff immunity), and Penthos can hold their own with LZ imo.

 

5. I guess I'm a bit biased towards Rancor...I learned the game with him, and besides Vergil, he is the only Burst Caster that I play well, only he isn't much of a Burst Caster anymore due to the difficulty of landing that 3rd Nuke.

 

6. For Tassadar, E is extremely important. Why? E provides Weapon Speed. More Weapon Speed = Lower CD on Q = Faster Procs. I don't like how quick his clone dies though, and how Tassadar is nearly useless after it dies. I think I'll try your suggestion and add Pyre+Xenomorph though.

 

On a side note...what does everyone think of Brine's pull becoming skill shot? I think that basically makes every initiation in the game a non-target hero skill, with the exception of Dehaka.