Carries "always" get maxed out--we should fix this

[TheElder]

There's been a fair amount of talk on the forum recently about the overwhelming nature of some of the late game carries, particularly Shadow. I've also seen people complain about Maar and, to an extent, Nova. Even Penthos got mentioned once.

 

The issue with a carry is that, by design, they are stronger than other heroes once they reach the late game. You can't balance them by making them weaker because it defeats their very purpose and, to be honest, their late-game strength is not the real problem.

 

The real problem is that they ALWAYS MAKE IT TO THE LATE GAME (ok, not always, but...)

 

Even the New York Times (check out the article on LoL a month or two ago) knows that carries are supposed to be carried BY their team so that they can reach the late game, at which point they can (finally) start to carry. The issue with carries in AoS, in my opinion, is that they don't need this. Unless the enemy team does something special, the game will last long enough for a competent shadow/maar/nova to get maxed out. The counter to carries is a push comp that can end the game before the carry gets maxed out, but that's not how a carry should work. The carry's team should be the one that has to do something special to make the carry work. The default shouldn't be that the game lasts long enough for the carry to solo win.

 

Here is my proposal: change the time at which carries peak relative to the average length of games so that a game needs to last longer than average for the carry to reach their peak. As a result, a team which wants to rely on a carry has to make a special effort. We could do this by adding extra levels, making items cost more, reducing exp, etc., but there is an easier way, one that might help out the pub scene in its own way. Make games shorter by making lane creeps better at killing towers.

 

Specifically, I suggest transferring lane creep HP back from resistance to actual health, then changing some damage to true damage. The towers will retain their resistances and current hp, so heroes will interact with them the same way, and lane creeps will still need the same number of hits to kill each other/die to heroes, but the creeps will kill towers and the artifact faster. The result will be a reduction in average game time (especially, less time sitting in base turtling after you've already "lost"), without changing the way heroes interact with each other, towers, or creeps (much). Pushers like Shadow who tank the wave will be nerfed a bit, Dustin and his true damage will be nerfed a bit...and carries won't get maxed out every game.

[EterNity]

A simple reply will be "not really."

 

People maxed up in pub games because people don't know when to push.

 

The majority of the in house I played in NA end before 5th items.

 

The creep hp change is actually to nerf AA life steal. If you revert it, you are buffing carries that you are trying to nerf.

 

On my phone right now, I can go in more details when I get home.

[TheElder]

A simple reply will be "not really."

 

People maxed up in pub games because people don't know when to push.

 

The majority of the in house I played in NA end before 5th items.

 

I know. And as most of the threads about the carries have decided, the appropriate comp. deals with them fine. I'm not really talking ih. The problem is a pub problem.

 

The creep hp change is actually to nerf AA life steal. If you revert it, you are buffing carries that you are trying to nerf.

 

Hadn't thought about that. Mostly, the idea is to make creeps stronger relative to towers while changing as little as possible otherwise. I also wanted to avoid a brute force "+4 vs towers" approach. I'm not sure that would prevent the "fix" from having its intended effect, but the buff to aa carries would be unfortunate.

 

On my phone right now, I can go in more details when I get home.

[taznkid]

I was going to make a new topic, but it sort of relates to this, so I am going to post it here.

 

To put it in a nutshell, as much as I hate to say it since I absolutely love to play strength bruisers, I think they need some sort of item nerf (or maybe just Kerrigan does).

 

Just check out these replay:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xnyfaqsnzi21ebo/Why%20Kerri%20Should%20be%20Nerfed.SC2Replay?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/et7pua5a8oihzuc/Dat%20Kerri%20Doh.SC2Replay?dl=0

 

Now I realize that I had leaver bonus, the enemy team was absolutely terrible, etc. but still....in one of these games, I was up against 3 carries and team that was fed, and in the other one, I was playing with such heavy lag that I had around a 4 second delay or was just attack moving half the time during the late stages of the game. In all honestly, I'm pretty sure my item choices could have been better too in retrospect. Despite that, I absolutely destroyed with Kerrigan.

 

Again, I just love strength bruisers but....for the sake of balance in this game, I feel like something needs to be done.

 

Now if you think I am wrong, please say so and convince me why, as half of me REALLY wants to be convinced, since again, I love strength bruisers/Kerrigan and frankly don't want them to be nerfed.

[Doom]

@ tazn: kerrigan != str bruiser.

 

@thread: unless you make those heroes have some sort of exponential scaling (ex: Maar sap = 0 + (0.005 * int**2) which gives it 50 damage at 100 int, 450 damage at 300 int, and 1250 damage at 500 int), I have no idea how you propose to make heroes that are way weaker than others in the midgame, but way stronger in the lategame. With almost no exception, "carries" are stronger than other heroes at any point in the game. Supports are there to keep their carry alive or other team's carry disabled (special emphasis on disabled, because excluding fking broken justicar's damage output, or slightly too strong jackson's combo, a support, even one that also works as a burster can never take on a carry. Some carries already take a while to get on their feet (I have to get 2-4 t3 items on darpa before I start getting luda kills, and almost completely maxed on tassidar before im of any use) but others are at that point from the getgo. Try to 1v1 a shadow at level 1... unless you are a cain or toxi with sick scoot and shoot micro, or raynor using those super-flobing-broken marauders, you can't do it. Or how about zera at level 7? Muta at lvl 4? Nova whenever she gets khali blade (I personally love staying in lane until I have enough for it in one purchase, so on a good game I can have it by level 8...). Toxi at level 3? Leo at level 6? Etc, etc, etc. Point is, excluding the occasional biotron-like hero who destroys carries up until they get a certain item (in biotron's case, the tusk component of explosive), adcs get their damage spike way earlier than the heroes that are supposed to counter their midgame, as amusing as that is.

[EterNity]

As far as I know, if Whale decide to touch Maar, he will be reworked.

[taznkid]

@ tazn: kerrigan != str bruiser.

 

@thread: unless you make those heroes have some sort of exponential scaling (ex: Maar sap = 0 + (0.005 * int**2) which gives it 50 damage at 100 int, 450 damage at 300 int, and 1250 damage at 500 int), I have no idea how you propose to make heroes that are way weaker than others in the midgame, but way stronger in the lategame. With almost no exception, "carries" are stronger than other heroes at any point in the game. Supports are there to keep their carry alive or other team's carry disabled (special emphasis on disabled, because excluding fking broken justicar's damage output, or slightly too strong jackson's combo, a support, even one that also works as a burster can never take on a carry. Some carries already take a while to get on their feet (I have to get 2-4 t3 items on darpa before I start getting luda kills, and almost completely maxed on tassidar before im of any use) but others are at that point from the getgo. Try to 1v1 a shadow at level 1... unless you are a cain or toxi with sick scoot and shoot micro, or raynor using those super-flobing-broken marauders, you can't do it. Or how about zera at level 7? Muta at lvl 4? Nova whenever she gets khali blade (I personally love staying in lane until I have enough for it in one purchase, so on a good game I can have it by level 8...). Toxi at level 3? Leo at level 6? Etc, etc, etc. Point is, excluding the occasional biotron-like hero who destroys carries up until they get a certain item (in biotron's case, the tusk component of explosive), adcs get their damage spike way earlier than the heroes that are supposed to counter their midgame, as amusing as that is.

Is that a not-equal sign?

 

If it is...notice how I made a distinction between Strength Bruisers and Kerrigan? I didn't just say "Strength Bruisers", I said "Strength Bruisers/Kerrigan"

[TheElder]

As far as I know, if Whale decide to touch Maar, he will be reworked.

 

Did you mean to post this in the Maar thread? Because my goal here is to fix what I see as a balance problem that stems, not from any particular hero, but from the way the game itself is designed.

 

I was going to make a new topic, but it sort of relates to this, so I am going to post it here.

 

I think you probably want your own topic. You have some excellent points but, like with Eternity's post, they are about specific heroes and this thread, if it's about any heroes, is about agi carries.

 

@thread: unless you make those heroes have some sort of exponential scaling (ex: Maar sap = 0 + (0.005 * int**2) which gives it 50 damage at 100 int, 450 damage at 300 int, and 1250 damage at 500 int), I have no idea how you propose to make heroes that are way weaker than others in the midgame, but way stronger in the lategame.

 

You forget about scaling on level up. The game designers control the change in base damage for hero abilities as the ability is leveled up, as well as the stat gain on level up. Also, abilities with high scaling are stronger relative to other skills late game because stats are so much higher than base damages. Maar's sap at 200% int scaling does 600-700 late game (easily), while Rancor's snipe does a similar amount (if they couldn't see him). But in the early game, Maar's sap does like 60 and and Snipe still breaks 100. At level 1, when stats are around 30-40, scaling differences are irrelevant (20% of 40 isn't very different than 60%), but when stats are 300-400, 20% is a LOT differnent than 60%.

 

A rework of the weapon speed system could allow agi carries to scale exponentially. RIght now, as I understand it, the first wweapons peed item is worth the most to you, and later ones do less, since a "15% weapon speed buff" actually reduces cooldown by 15%. It doesn't increase dps by 15%. By reducing the percentages on WS items and making them scale exponenetially, aa carries power could be pushed back to the late game (they would need to really stack items to get high aa speed).

 

With almost no exception, "carries" are stronger than other heroes at any point in the game.

 

Te be honest, I haven't atually felt that this is true. Carries start to be overwhelming around level 8-10 in my expereince. This is too early, and something that needs to change (as well as the average max out time relative to game length), but I wouldn't agree that carries are too strong the ENTIRE game (just most of it), Then again, this is pub I'm talking about. Maybe IH is different.

 

Supports are there to keep their carry alive or other team's carry disabled (special emphasis on disabled, because excluding fking broken justicar's damage output, or slightly too strong jackson's combo, a support, even one that also works as a burster can never take on a carry. Some carries already take a while to get on their feet (I have to get 2-4 t3 items on darpa before I start getting luda kills, and almost completely maxed on tassidar before im of any use)

 

^Exactly. Carries shoudl need help early game, both to get money and levels. They also should need the appropriate items to make a difference. This contradicts what you said earlier....

 

but others are at that point from the getgo. Try to 1v1 a shadow at level 1... unless you are a cain or toxi with sick scoot and shoot micro, or raynor using those super-flobing-broken marauders, you can't do it. Or how about zera at level 7? Muta at lvl 4? Nova whenever she gets khali blade (I personally love staying in lane until I have enough for it in one purchase, so on a good game I can have it by level 8...). Toxi at level 3? Leo at level 6? Etc, etc, etc. Point is, excluding the occasional biotron-like hero who destroys carries up until they get a certain item (in biotron's case, the tusk component of explosive), adcs get their damage spike way earlier than the heroes that are supposed to counter their midgame, as amusing as that is.

 

...But yes, I get your point. Most carries don't need to be carried enough. Still, 1v1 isn't the appropriate field for discussing them. OF COURSE they are awesome at 1v1, but they should be allowed at least some relevance all game. The problem appears when they dominate the entire game, and I haven't encountered that, Mostly, they hang around doing pretty much nothing (especially nova) until midgame, then start getting kills. By level 11, they waste everyone.

[FrankTheTankie]

Now if you think I am wrong, please say so and convince me why, as half of me REALLY wants to be convinced, since again, I love strength bruisers/Kerrigan and frankly don't want them to be nerfed.

 

Is the other half still stuck at the airport?

[TheElder]

I'm mad right now, which probably is not the best state to post in, but I'm going to do it anyway.

 

This weekend, EVERY SINGLE GAME of AoS I played was decided by Shadow. Usually, the team with no Shadow kicked butt until people started to group up (level 7-8 ish)...then Shadow started going to town. BAD shadow players, ones that really have no clue what they are doing, avoid feeding early because he's fast (heroic plus E) and has vortex. Once they get a few items (translation: Explosive Retrofit, which is stupidly strong on him, +1 aa item), the game is over. A-move down lane; when someone shows up press R+Q. Shadow's team won from the moment he was picked. NO HERO SHOULD BE A GUARANTEED WIN! You can go on and on about how he can be "countered" IH, but the life of the game is the pubs, and shadow ruins them. If you won't fix him (Step 1: remove Explosive Step 2: make casters have the burst to actually counter him Step 3: nerf aa speed cap), PLEASE implement an ingame autoban function that can only be lifted by majority vote of the players.

[OPReN]

that's rather wrong with shadow then wrong with carries..

well what you said is kinda true i can't really argue with that

they should either remove sight reduction effect from this game completely or add a sight reduction immune item which doesn't takes item slot like TS elixir.

[Revision]

Yep, he can be countered in IH... wait a second...

[taznkid]

I'm mad right now, which probably is not the best state to post in, but I'm going to do it anyway.

 

This weekend, EVERY SINGLE GAME of AoS I played was decided by Shadow. Usually, the team with no Shadow kicked butt until people started to group up (level 7-8 ish)...then Shadow started going to town. BAD shadow players, ones that really have no clue what they are doing, avoid feeding early because he's fast (heroic plus E) and has vortex. Once they get a few items (translation: Explosive Retrofit, which is stupidly strong on him, +1 aa item), the game is over. A-move down lane; when someone shows up press R+Q. Shadow's team won from the moment he was picked. NO HERO SHOULD BE A GUARANTEED WIN! You can go on and on about how he can be "countered" IH, but the life of the game is the pubs, and shadow ruins them. If you won't fix him (Step 1: remove Explosive Step 2: make casters have the burst to actually counter him Step 3: nerf aa speed cap), PLEASE implement an ingame autoban function that can only be lifted by majority vote of the players.

Like you, I've seen a Shadow basically every game.

 

Unlike you, I have yet to see a Shadow do well.

 

Frankly....I feel that any tanky dps can destroy Shadow right now, what with Darksteel Titan and Chilling together. Forces Shadow to either sacrifice more item space to maintain weapon speed, or attack like a snail.

 

I personally have been discovering the joy of Penthos, and wondering how the heck I dish out so much damage with only Force of Entropy, Timesplitter, Sliptide Scythe, and Atom Smasher.

Edited December 23, 2014 by taznkid

[TheElder]

that's rather wrong with shadow then wrong with carries..

well what you said is kinda true i can't really argue with that

they should either remove sight reduction effect from this game completely or add a sight reduction immune item which doesn't takes item slot like TS elixir.

 

It's not even the sight reduction. It's his damage output plus lifesteal--with Explosive retrofit, you have to stop him AA-ing or he's unkillable. The sight reduction makes that harder, but he'd still be too strong without it imo. Certainly in the context I'm talking about--let's be honest, we could perma-blind most pub players without making a huge difference (ALL HAIL THE RANDOM CLICKERS!).

 

And yes, the mad post is entirely about shadow. The OP is about all carries, and applies to shadow too, but this is extra about shadow (he doesn't just "max out" too fast, he's too absurdly strong once he does).

 

Like you, I've seen a Shadow basically every game.

 

Unlike you, I have yet to see a Shadow do well.

 

That is...surprising. Maybe it has something to do with the presence of a competent Penthos in all of your games?

 

I know Shadow's not unbeatable--not really. We just finished agreeing he's not really a probem IH. THE PROBLEM is that Shadow is both ridiculously strong AND easy. His counters--Cyprus and Penthos--are not, so in a Pub, he has far too good of a chance to go unchecked by these heroes. And since you can't see what the other team has picked until it's too late....

 

Bad Shadows beat GOOD teams, playing strong heroes, in pubs. Bad Shadow should not trump combinations of Balrog, Bio, Rancor, Nova, Boros, Toxi, Pyro.... You shouldn't have to be a mindreader or pick Penthos (and be able to play him) every game to have a chance of winning.

 

Regarding DST: A bad shadow was whaling on my team in one game, so we ALL bought DST--and he still won, because his team, probably by accident, aaed us for him. You really need all 3 orbs, since he has so much lifesteal, and any idiot knows to aa the enemy heroes when he or she has a chance. All it did was prevent him from getting kills 5v1 (which he was doing before--he'd die, but still kill at least one)

 

Here is a solution to our disagreement about Shadow's effectiveness: use the bank file to record stats, not just for players, but for heroes. If we can see how often a hero actually wins, how much CS/kills it gets, what heroes it loses to, a lot of the arguments on this forum about balance would simply go away. You should be able to track items too.

Edited December 23, 2014 by TheElder

[OPReN]

It's not even the sight reduction. It's his damage output plus lifesteal--with Explosive retrofit, you have to stop him AA-ing or he's unkillable. The sight reduction makes that harder, but he'd still be too strong without it imo. Certainly in the context I'm talking about--let's be honest, we could perma-blind most pub players without making a huge difference (ALL HAIL THE RANDOM CLICKERS!).

Melee is supposed to be strong

or they will be complete trash since nova/darpa/toxi outrange them pretty hard

they only thing broken is sight stuff

And yes, the mad post is entirely about shadow. The OP is about all carries, and applies to shadow too, but this is extra about shadow (he doesn't just "max out" too fast, he's too absurdly strong once he does).

Once again. if you can see shadow as ranged AA, you will just own shadow

That is...surprising. Maybe it has something to do with the presence of a competent Penthos in all of your games?

 

I know Shadow's not unbeatable--not really. We just finished agreeing he's not really a probem IH. THE PROBLEM is that Shadow is both ridiculously strong AND easy. His counters--Cyprus and Penthos--are not, so in a Pub, he has far too good of a chance to go unchecked by these heroes. And since you can't see what the other team has picked until it's too late....

Not true at all

He's usually auto banned in inhouse

Here is a solution to our disagreement about Shadow's effectiveness: use the bank file to record stats, not just for players, but for heroes. If we can see how often a hero actually wins, how much CS/kills it gets, what heroes it loses to, a lot of the arguments on this forum about balance would simply go away. You should be able to track items too.

WOW Heros now have their own bank file??

COOL

[ANARCHY]

WOW Heros now have their own bank file??

COOL

 

i don't believe they do but it wouldn't be hard to make

the only issue is there is no current way to upload / track / compile these things anyway

[OPReN]

i don't believe they do but it wouldn't be hard to make

the only issue is there is no current way to upload / track / compile these things anyway

Sarcasm'

[TheElder]

@OpRen: Bad shadow can run in on a GOOD toxi who is ulting and win. While toxi's team is around him. Melee should be strong; fine. Not that strong.

 

As for the rest of your post...did it have much point?

[Moo]

@OpRen: Bad shadow can run in on a GOOD toxi who is ulting and win. While toxi's team is around him. Melee should be strong; fine. Not that strong.

 

As for the rest of your post...did it have much point?

If toxi has chilling+timesplitter/swordbreaker then shadow won't do jack squat. If it weren't for the sight reduction on ult, anyone buying sword breaker causes shadow to not do jack squat. toxi with chilling atk slow, atk slow from W, and evasion from sword breaker/timesplitter should never die to a shadow, especially since those items give a bunch of armor and good hp too.

[TheElder]

If toxi has chilling+timesplitter/swordbreaker then shadow won't do jack squat. If it weren't for the sight reduction on ult, anyone buying sword breaker causes shadow to not do jack squat. toxi with chilling atk slow, atk slow from W, and evasion from sword breaker/timesplitter should never die to a shadow, especially since those items give a bunch of armor and good hp too.

 

Maybe...I don't play toxi, so I haven't tried it. I don't know what items the guy had, and I don't care enough to go check the replay.

 

The possiblity for counters to Shadow do, as Ive said, exist. He's not unbeatable...just way to hard to beat. Not dying to him is great...what about the rest of your team? What about his splitpushing? What about the three item slots you dropped on him (why would the carry build chilling? I've never seen that. And if someone else is right there carrying it...shadow can go leech off them (with explosive, he can leech off BOTH)).

[OPReN]

@OpRen: Bad shadow can run in on a GOOD toxi who is ulting and win. While toxi's team is around him. Melee should be strong; fine. Not that strong.

 

As for the rest of your post...did it have much point?

my point is shadow is broken but its the problem of shadow itself not carries

 

[Moo]

 

 

Maybe...I don't play toxi, so I haven't tried it. I don't know what items the guy had, and I don't care enough to go check the replay.

 

The possiblity for counters to Shadow do, as Ive said, exist. He's not unbeatable...just way to hard to beat. Not dying to him is great...what about the rest of your team? What about his splitpushing? What about the three item slots you dropped on him (why would the carry build chilling? I've never seen that. And if someone else is right there carrying it...shadow can go leech off them (with explosive, he can leech off BOTH)).

Sword breaker makes shadow unable to leech. So you then instantly kill him. Toxi isn't really a hard carry, he is more of a semi-carry and can get away with a chilling/sword breaker. If you really need damage, get timesplitter, as it gives evasion, damage, and mini-stuns which help a lot against shadow. It's not hard to counter shadow with an item or two, and the items that counter him are good ones (chilling, swordbreaker, and timesplitter are good for their stats as well, and counter many different heroes). I do agree that shadow is OP, but sword breaker can make him useless for almost the duration of his ult, and he can't lifesteal. You just have to get within sight range of him, or carry scanners, which is the problem with shadow as OPren has stated.

[taznkid]

As Moo said, Toxi is more of a semi-carry. From my experience, he is usually picked for damage and to counter hard carries.

Edited December 25, 2014 by taznkid