Burst Battle Royale: Chuck Vs Cyprus

[MOTHER]

I would like to direct your attention to these two burst caster heroes with the intent of highlighting the similarities and differences between their two skill sets in order to better understand if one of them is OP or the other is just UP, or maybe even both?

 

Besides the obvious differences in stats, both are burst casters that can dabble in dps-ville from time to time. These are their skills:

 

 

Q Outhouses VS Pillars

 

Cow's not only block pathing faster, cover more distance at more varying angles but they also do a tremendous amount of AoE damage, a maximum of 250 + 70% INT for 170 mana. With the heroic passive, they can block more and deal even more damage. Cyp's Q deals no innate damage but it blocks stuff too for a maximum cost of 100 mana.

 

Cow wins.

 

 

W Burst VS Wave

 

Cow's Anabolic Burst with the benefit of the heroic passive can do a maximum of 260 + 50% int damage at the cost of 65 mana with a cool down of 9. This also serves as cow's initiation and escape ability.

 

Cyprus by comboing W into Q can do a maximum of 240 + 120% int at a total cost of 250 mana with a longer cool down. That's less base damage than a single Q and a single W from Cow and this is without factoring the bonus damage from E.

 

Cow wins because with his Q and W can do a maximum of 510 + 120% int (at a cost of 235 mana), wiping the floor with Cyp's 240 + 120% int which costs more and again this is without counting the bonus damage from E or factoring the different cool downs (Cow can use his QW at a faster frequency than Cyp's QW).

 

 

E Matrix VS Blink

 

Cow passively gets even more burst AoE damage, buffing every spell in his arsenal without any effort required on his part. Really.

 

Cyp gets a blink. An initiation/escape skill that unlike Cow's W deals no innate damage. Looks cooler though.

 

Cyp wins. (just kidding)

 

 

R Toilet VS Fist

 

Cow gets a global range AoE burst damage at maximum deals 600 + 60% int AoE damage every 60 seconds (40 with heroic passive) for a measly 225 mana. This is without factoring the bonus damage from E. Cow can strike his ultimate with little to no risk due to its range.

 

Cyp gets a single target unit short-medium range nuke that deals a maximum of 800 + 100% INT (+420 if all 6 pillars hit) for twice the amount of energy at 550 (650 with Q pillars) with 80 cooldown (the heroic reduces this by 20%). Cyp must get up close and personal to strike, possibly could die.

 

Cow wins. In about the time that Cyp can use a single R, Cow can use 2 R's for (1200 + 120% INT) in an AoE, from anywhere on the map for the same mana cost of 550. Oh and did I happen to mention that these toilets flobing heal you and your allies?!?! Lol.

 

 

I guess what I'm trying to show is the great disparity and injustice(!) that goes unnoticed between heroes of the same class/role, both vying for that spot in your team comp. The imbalance becomes more clear when you consider that Cow is a STR hero but has more burst power than an INT hero allegedly designed for the singular purpose of SYSTEMIC EXTERMINATION.

 

I think we can all agree that Cow's ability to burst is kinda over the top (not the same as OP); Every single skill of his including his heroic passive amplifies his ability to burst. Cyp on the other hand has been getting the short end of the stick for many months now, because of his bad reputation in pubs no doubt. This has resulted in the present, where Cyp while not a bad hero has become extremely situational and really irrelevant since other heroes, like Cow, offer more viable and reliable burst along with other stuff.

 

So is Cow OP? Or Cyp UP? or Both? And more importantly, what needs to be done to level the playing field So that every hero has their place and purpose?

Edited April 21, 2014 by Jessika

[MrGrim]

I don't know why they decided to change the cd on cyprus it wasn't like he was overly spamming his skills nor did they seem imbalanced but then again many of the changes the devs make seem to get reverted anyway. If you just look at cow without the abomination that is todays cyprus hes not that bad. He hits hard and has good gank potential but it's mostly geared towards early to the mid game and the more late it gets the more his effectiveness drops off. I say buff cyp a bit, maybe change his walls back and the cd and cow seems fine maybe a bit strong but certainly not op.

[residente]

When I read the title I thought you were talking about Cyprus vs Chuck Norris

[Indo]

Well tbones q+w does more dmg then cyprus but cyprus doesn't need to be close, also did you consider cyprus passiv 20% cdr? Cyprus blink is only affected by silence while tbone is affected by any root or slow to. Cows toileet has a huge advantage vs tight sticking teams while cyprus has a advantage over 2-3 people outside a creepwave

 

so much flaming...

 

 

Calculating cyprus ulti twice? Becaus you can obviously use it twice during a teamfight while it does 20% more int dmg when you use it twice? Obviously better. Just becaus it rapes better against people that stick stupidlyclose to each other.

[Doom]

Cyprus is.... by far the best last-hitter in the game. Close to 100 base weapon damage with talent, which is rivalled by no ranged hero other than raynor, whom he outstrips with superior attack animation (Both have a projectile, raynor's is slightly faster, but cyprus unleashes his attack almost as soon as you a-click something, while raynor waits almost a second). If there is no one in my lane, I can get every creep with balrog, lz, shadow, justicar EVERY TIME (I could usually do that with most others, but these are the heroes I feel anyone should have 100% last-hit percentage while freefarming) . But with Cyprus, I can get every last hit while laning against give or take anyone, because he simultaneously can zone enemy heroes, easily last-hit with AA, and has a good aoe burst if you have trouble. Granted, cow can last-hit quite well, but unless he starts using his combo on creep waves (in which case he will just tie cyprus, not beat him, while cyprus will be able to gank, since his ult is off cd). I do not find Cyprus underpowered for that reason, he outfarms people so hard that he can get the items that would make a hero with half his spell damage rape people that will have as few items as cyprus' opponents when he gets the items he needs. Cow IS OP, however.

 

My suggestion is just change echo matrix. It's concept is boring, its already been adjusted several years between worthless and op. Off the top of my head, I'd say give him +15/25/35/45 weapon damage for 4 seconds every time he casts an ability (stacks 4 times and refreshes with each spellcast). Nerfs his spell damage, but majorly buffs his heroic active.

[Anax]

cyprus is USELESS at the moment in any competitive environment. Cow isn't. That's about it...

[MOTHER]

@Indo

 

Yes Cyprus needs to be within 4-5 units of a hero (facing them with pillars) for the full damage of QW to hit - that's relatively close for a caster. Also what flaming do you speak of?

 

 

 

@Doom

 

You're right Cyp's AA is great, the best if not one of the best at least, but his AoE burst is ineffective in the early stages of the game and requires you build heavy int (350+) for it to start to shine. By ineffective, I mean it requires 8 skills points to reach its full potential and requires 250 energy to do about half the damage that Cow's QW can do for 235 energy for example.

 

I agree about echo matrix, I think it is the root of Cow's evil and needs some consideration and rebalancing and I don't think tweaking the numbers is enough, it may need a rework like you suggested (nice suggestion btw).

 

 

Personally I think both heroes need to be tweaked not just to correct this disparity but to improve their overall balance between the cast.

 

Cyp:

 

Q - Change energy cost to 75 at all levels from 55/70/85/100. Reduce cool down by 5 seconds at all levels.

 

W - Restore W base damage to 120/160/200/240 + 60% from 60/80/100/120 + 60%. Keep pillar bonus damage 60/80/100/120 + 60%, this brings the total possible damage to 180/240/300/360 + 120% of Q+W. (what it was pre-ninja nerf)

 

Additionally, the pillar push back of W and pillar pull of R should have their range increased to 10u. This allows Cyprus to manipulate the pillars from further away (this is to compensate for the recent changes to his ranges). No this is does mean that the AoE damage radius of W is increased or that the pillars will be pushed 22u.

 

Cow

 

Q Increase energy cost to 125/150/175/200 from 125/140/155/170.

 

W Increase energy cost to 70/90/110/130 from 65.

 

E This skill needs a rework like Doom said, I'm personally not sure what to do with it but it's too good at clearing waves. I think changing it to a percentage for example could be a step in the right direction, his spells echo 2/4/6/8% the initial damage (these numbers are placeholders) to nearby units. This will reduce their wave clearing effectiveness early-mid game but grow stronger as the game progresses.

 

R - Increase energy cost to 175/250/325 from 125/175/225, reduce casting range to 30/45/60u from global.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Jessika

[Indo]

@ jessika yes cyprus needs to be in 5u radius for fulldmg, but he can also pick at the enemies from way farther while tbones w is what? 2u range? With cyprus you can annoy the enemie team before they can actually do something which cow can only do with his ulti

 

Cows ulti should do less dmg, have a higher cd but still global aswell as a bigger radius and actually hit exactly the spot you point on, sothat it works better with echo matrix ( decrease dmg but increase range to k thx)

[MOTHER]

Cow can pick at enemies from much further away than Cyp with Q and R and Cyp's 12u pillar pushing only starts to deal decent (but nothing to brag about) damage upwards of 350 INT.

 

I also strongly disagree with your ulti suggestion mainly because Cow is a fun hero, I don't want to ruin that. But at the same time I want him to be a fair hero, just going over his skills you can clearly see that they cost very little energy compared to other burst casters and relative to the damage they deal. Increasing the energy costs of his skills and a slight rework of E should be enough.

[jamescossey]

one thing I don't see about the walls. even though cows wall does damage to properly place you need to run infront of the enemy where as Cyprus has good range on placing wall and once enemy gets past the wall u can knock it back into them with a good chance to last hit. not to mention cypus wall(pillars) when knocked back does damage to every thing it hits. this equals a bigger aoe radius then cows wall. Cyprus vs cow 1v1 in a lane both players being = in skill. I think Cyprus would win. but for sure who ever is winning that lane will be able to keep it up.

[Jaysi]

Cyprus jungle is the new meta thanks to Aeren.

[Destroyer]

Ask him who let him jungle cyprus first, like two months ago.