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Underpowered heroes - and other hero balance suggestions


SayMyName
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Some of them are "trash tier" heroes- never picked, out-of-meta, nerfed too much on everything, just weak ones.

 

- Biotron

- Tychus

- Greelus

- Feral

- Immortal

- Balrog (very situational)

 

Huge reason why tychus like heroes (tank heroes, bruisers) are out of meta is not being able to tank inifinite amount of dmg, being immortal (to point of stupidity)- implementation of better dps items and true dmg items.

 

Suggestion to tychus and balrog:

change scalling of skills from int to str (their skills scaling with int make completly no sense)

 

-Tychus lowering base atk speed by a little , from 1.77 to 1.6 - 1.55 (15% ias buff), hero needs desperatly atk speed for his skillset to work, all tychus non-ult skills are "underpowered" to normal standard other skills if not full stack, hero also needs desperatly better atk speed as a bruiser. Tychus have very bad early game and needs very high amount of farm to have impact in game. His lategame isnt amazing either, especially for the price, trade u make. Changing scaling from int to str would allow him to be aoe hero like he used to be, have stronger late and his healing to be little more usefull even in late, allow him to tank little more and also be picked as a healer tank carry

 

-Balrog (old bruiser/nuker) as a tank and little role of initiator hero needs little lower cooldowns than like 15-20. CDs on Q W should be between 10, 12 sec, hero also needs fixed bug when he loses all passive, all stats, and talent with insta revive

Balrog is picked situational to some dot heroes, only because of belief of his W being good. Honestly problem is that his W have small AOE and huge cd, also this makes balrog to be behind not in front tanking dmg.

CDs from 18/16/30 to 10/12/25

 

 

Those changes would make those 2 heroes viable picks and balanced in my eyes. Would allow them to tank and in same time not be useless.

 

-Biotron If it comes to this guy, he was nerfed basically on everything hard. Propably the weakest hero currently. Currently bio have no role in game. He cant push, his ult is almost useless - his minions doesnt slow enough and die to basically everything in game, so he cant zone some hero out of fight or put any pressure,danger on map, he isnt even amazing vs bosses. In my eyes his minions need more hp, slow on ult needs to be little higher. Or his minions could do some bonus dmg vs towers (depend on possible roles of bio in game)

Suggested changes:

Heroic passive : spawn civilian each 5 sec - (0.2 lvl) instead of 7 sec - (0.2 lvl), cilivians have 25% hp from 15% (or give them some hp at start lower lvls/with lvls), enemies attacked by civilians loses 25%-22%-20% movespeed instead of 15%. Civilians deal 5+15% str physical dmg (+5 bonus dmg to buildings)

 

-Immortal Understand that this guy main role is being one of best counter push heroes in game. With being support as mana replenisher. This guy should also deal decent amount of dmg in teamfights with proper setup (as a burst not dps, with bubble, jaks ult, good epilogue etc). Problem with immortal design is that he is boring hero. Very passive positional hero. If his Q is too strong he can just never be in danger and farm safe creeps from long distance in lane and mostly never lose lane, just spam. It makes laning and game very non competetive and not interesting. But if his Q is weak he is not fulfilling his role properly.

Currently his Q deals not enough dmg.

Some people suggested him being slow when regenerating or after making a pulse.

What i suggest is reducing range on early lvls and have scalling on range with lvls to what it is,possible channel time from 2 sec to 4sec. Also making him gaining shields only near around creeps and minions (close range, turning lifebeating force/heat into the "energy", i mean shields) could also work and fit the hero (more creeps/minions more shields)

 

-Greev I dont know and dont play hero. But everybody says he is weak. Never picked either. Would be nice for somebody to propose something to this guy. I understand this hero, his role is basically an dot anti-caster support with some slow?

 

-Feral I dont play this hero much either. Would appreciate some feedback. His roles, proposal of changes.

 

About new heroes:

-Stukov Hero will be picked sometimes, mostly to try him because he is new. Concept of hero is very nice. From what I understand he supposed to be support, dot, teamfight hero with some nuking power (basically a good around support).

Currently he is a nuker. There are better nukers then a stukov. Problem with dots in game is that heroes have very high regen so its not effective. It could be fixed by making dots stronger or making dots disabling regen (but not affecting organic and heals). His nuking power should be little lower in my eyes, his W have higher dot, ultimate dmg should be lowered and travel faster, bouncing faster and have higher bounce radius (so instead of it being 1 man nuke, being it proper teamfight ability, dodgeable in degree, depend on how good u cast it and ur teamfight goes. Currently his ulti can bounce only if enemy team is completly braindead or you have amazing jakson ult)

Q from 60/110/160/210 to 50/100/150/200 or 50/95/140/185 or 60/100/140/180. W dot dmg buffed. E is good. R faster and higher bounce zone as mentioned but dmg from 200/300/400 to 150/250/350 or 175/275/375

 

-Dehaka Very strong hero. People want it badly to be autobanned. Currently best tank initiator in game. Have everything that dream tank initiator needs. Insane tankiblity, huge danger zone, low cds on good spells (nice dmg, slows, fail proof pull/stun), mobility/escape mechanism. Everything is on very top lvl. I would propably recommend nerfing his skills all around little. Hero passive from 2sec to 1,5sec. Tunnel range from 6 9 12 15 to 6 8 10 12. Ultimate from 40/50/60 to 30/40/50 and hero should be perfectly fine. Strong tank initiator.

 

Other heroes (forgotten ones) slight possible changes:

-Vorpal tank teamfight aoe initiator disabler blademail hero. Passive from 25% to 33% 5 radius 100% to 6 radius or changing passive from only spell to spell and physical (possible reduce of returning dmg to 20% or 15% at max lvl, 6 radius also). Enemies at 10 unit radius should take 25% of the reflect instead of 0 (would be 6,25%) Everything over 10unit = 0

Change scalling of skills to str could maybe also work but i dont like this idea much, would need much balance and it would change his role (from caster to bruiser aoe carry). And balancing between int and tankiness on vorpal is always fun.

Heroic passive - Additionaly to normal respawn time of orbs - Every 5 creeps killed gives 1 orb replenished

 

-Rancor Early game supp/stunner/nuker ganker. Teamfight hero. Map control hero. Anti invis hero.

Stun from 1.6 sec to 1.8 sec or even 2sec (stun duration could be dependent on duration of channeling time), Scan from 60/50/40/30 to 40/32/24/16

Fixing consume bug would be also nice :)

 

-Erekul Could give him some spellres or (because its one of really boring heroes lacking any skillshot) change his W to skillshot. Make it shotted in line, or circle or piramid, spawn in piramid aoe, triangle corners or whatever. This would make this hero not boring as hell. Or make his Q being able to be thrown as "blob" in some range in some aoe (double tap q would make it cast like normally if possible)

 

-Starscream currently already too much for me to write. Maybe will add some stuff later

 

 

_____________________________

 

For really long period of time it was in habit to "nerf heroes" This results in game being less competetive, more boring, less characteristic (less interesting), more newbie friendly. When every hero is strong in his way, then every hero is characteristic, diffrent and game is more fun and have more strategy value. Bring heroes being true heroes back to the game, early game being a challenge, lvls having higher impact than they have nowdays.

Edited by SayMyName
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In almost every way greelus is worse than rory as a support and caster. His dot is nowhere near as good as molotov, the bouncing concussion is better in team fights than the silencer drone and stevie is way better at controlling space than greelus' ulti plus rory also has a team heal in his tent. The only thing greelus has is better mobility but that doesn't help at all and his energy leech is completely useless.

 

As far as stukov goes, he is probably one of the best lane controllers in the game right now. Melee shouldn't even bother going against and anyone without nova's range can't do much once stukov spams his slow and burn.

 

Str carries need like 35-40 mins farm before they can do much and every agi needs 20-25 mins. Why would anyone draft str carries int hat situation? Plus many games are over by the time str carry comes online regardless of how good they are ultra late. It needs to be fixed.

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I don't really agree with some of these...

 

I've played IH with Tychus a few times: he is a good pick when you need someone who can stay in lane and deal sustained damage for a extended period of time. I think he is just fine the way he is. Compared to other tank type heroes, you can afford to be less tanky due to the fairly low cooldown of his ultimate which makes him extremely tanky.

 

Rancor is fine the way he is too, although I wouldn't mind maybe a slight movement speed buff to his cloak to compensate for late-game true sights on everyone. I play him such that I assume that everyone can see me anyway, and that seems to do the trick. Fixing the consumable bug WOULD be nice.

 

I've seen Wind play a tanky Feral.Terminus that worked extremely well, combining tankiness with timescale and intelligence.

 

The rest I agree with firmly.

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I think that the reason strength carries are weaker is because of lack of mobility and that they can't efficiently build timesplitter (agi stat is wasted on them). The lack of mobility makes them easily killed early when they are still squishy and makes them unable to do anything without getting hit by cc. I think strength carries either need plain stat buffs to get to the attack speed cap faster (since they can't build TS efficiently) or a new strength item that gives a good amount of strength, weapon speed, and a unique that gives a form of mobility to fix their main problems and be the strength counterpart to timesplitter.

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The only one I agree with is immortal. His nerfs make him pretty lame.

 

Tychus is arguably the best late game dps tank with massive ssustai, dmg, and resist.

 

Greelus has some of the best cc in the game. Granted he is boring, he is amazing in team fights and counter push when utilized correctly. That being said a small buff to his q wouldn't hurt.

 

Balrog is another good dps tank. His passive aoe leech is an amazing team skill. He provides aoe debuff removal, and is a great chaser. Plus the tankier he gets the more he hurts you.

 

Bio is an outstanding squishy killer with great aoe dmg that can be double casted, our used for escape. His throwing dots massive dmg, and his heal can easily turn death into life.

 

Feral has such a massive learning curve imo, I can understand why you would put him on the list. He has one of the best if not the best creep wave killing ability, he's an amazing chaser, and his ulti is the biggest aoe skill in the game that can provide amaZing cc. I've only seen him played to devastating effect on less than a hand full of times out out is possible just extremely hard

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Tychus is not the best late game hero by a huge margin. He have some tankiness and thats all. He doesnt have huge dmg (and thats good). If people think that tychus is like op late than they build their heroes wrong. Tychus still melts to contam shard + shadowmourne like a burned potatoe, not even mentioning about grunty.

 

Yes he can stay on lane for some time early and thats all. But he is not a threat at all. When good player is against tychus on lane he have basically freefarm. He lacks atk speed for his skills to be good or even decent. He lacks much more (mobility and mana) but its not about making heroes op and without weakness

 

I would prefer nova or darpa late anyway. Cause of mobility and splitpushing they bring. Tychus is tanky, but nova or darpa have way more dmg (its good that agi carries have dmg late).

 

In serious game I would never pick tychus currently and experienced people say the same.

 

The post above is something completly not true, like fairy wishes.

 

Balrog dont have good dps and for sure he is not a good chaser. To be good chaser his cd on q would need to be lower and his movespeed would need to be buffed. Balrog is slow pig. He can tank something. Aura is nice. HIs dmg falls off super quickly from skills. Hero have terrible mana issues. But thats some of his weakness he needs to have (for example mana problems as a str hero). For him to make dps he would need desperatly atk speed (currently if you go atk speed on balrog your too squishy on dont fulfill your role at all). He is not a tychus to make dps. He is more of a tank nuker.

 

Bio? I dont have even words, bio is completly nothing.

 

 

As for stukov his nuke is just too high compared to other things he should be fulfilling. W is a skillshot and should be most "rewarding skill" from his skillset. When Q is no brain harass spell that currently is too strong. Ulti was meant to be teamfight skill, which it isnt.

Edited by SayMyName
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Tychus is not the best late game hero by a huge margin. He have some tankiness and thats all. He doesnt have huge dmg (and thats good). If people think that tychus is like op late than they build their heroes wrong. Tychus still melts to contam shard + shadowmourne like a burned potatoe, not even mentioning about grunty.

 

Yes he can stay on lane for some time early and thats all. But he is not a threat at all. When good player is against tychus on lane he have basically freefarm. He lacks atk speed for his skills to be good or even decent. He lacks much more (mobility and mana) but its not about making heroes op and without weakness

 

I would prefer nova or darpa late anyway. Cause of mobility and splitpushing they bring. Tychus is tanky, but nova or darpa have way more dmg (its good that agi carries have dmg late).

 

In serious game I would never pick tychus currently and experienced people say the same.

 

The post above is something completly not true, like fairy wishes.

 

 

I agree tychus up, bring back his debuff immunity ult and his bunker!

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That's one of the main problems with this game, the make op heroes, and ppl cry (ofc), then they overnerf them. I remember Lurker being banned in a tournament (not auto) after my first game with him because his damage was too high, after the tournament nerf after nerf and now no one plays it.

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That's one of the main problems with this game, the make op heroes, and ppl cry (ofc), then they overnerf them. I remember Lurker being banned in a tournament (not auto) after my first game with him because his damage was too high, after the tournament nerf after nerf and now no one plays it.

 

Idd. Baby steps, baby steps.

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Balrog is the most snowball-y hero in the game.... if you can get a decent early game, there will be nothing any enemy can do to you. If not.... well you won't be much more than an aura mule. That said, with lifesteal nerfs, his aura is insane. You are right about W being crap team support because you want to be in front of your allies, not beside them.

 

Tychus: boring, and very farm-reliant, but not hugely underpowered, I think..... the lower base attack speed you proposed would do the trick.

 

Immortal: very boring, but not up at all.

 

Rancor is fine (though an increase to break range on q would be nice)

 

Stukov has some nice debuffs if not the highest damage post nerf (which was needed, he was bursting boiies down left and right)

 

Erekul is fine if enemy team doesn't have silences of stuns of any kind. Otherwise, you get parallax or become useless.

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Tychus is not the best late game hero by a huge margin. He have some tankiness and thats all. He doesnt have huge dmg (and thats good). If people think that tychus is like op late than they build their heroes wrong. Tychus still melts to contam shard + shadowmourne like a burned potatoe, not even mentioning about grunty.

 

Yes he can stay on lane for some time early and thats all. But he is not a threat at all. When good player is against tychus on lane he have basically freefarm. He lacks atk speed for his skills to be good or even decent. He lacks much more (mobility and mana) but its not about making heroes op and without weakness

 

I would prefer nova or darpa late anyway. Cause of mobility and splitpushing they bring. Tychus is tanky, but nova or darpa have way more dmg (its good that agi carries have dmg late).

 

In serious game I would never pick tychus currently and experienced people say the same.

 

The post above is something completly not true, like fairy wishes.

 

Balrog dont have good dps and for sure he is not a good chaser. To be good chaser his cd on q would need to be lower and his movespeed would need to be buffed. Balrog is slow pig. He can tank something. Aura is nice. HIs dmg falls off super quickly from skills. Hero have terrible mana issues. But thats some of his weakness he needs to have (for example mana problems as a str hero). For him to make dps he would need desperatly atk speed (currently if you go atk speed on balrog your too squishy on dont fulfill your role at all). He is not a tychus to make dps. He is more of a tank nuker.

 

Bio? I dont have even words, bio is completly nothing.

 

 

As for stukov his nuke is just too high compared to other things he should be fulfilling. W is a skillshot and should be most "rewarding skill" from his skillset. When Q is no brain harass spell that currently is too strong. Ulti was meant to be teamfight skill, which it isnt.

As opposed to Nova or Darpa, which you probably almost always would get in a IH (or some sort of agility carry) Tychus is more situational. Yes, Tychus does not deal more damage, but he can also take more damage. You aren't going to burst spell a Tychus (except in early game). It just isn't happening. And you don't put Tychus solo lane against anyone. Also, in the early stages of the game, Tychus has one of the highest attack speeds due to his passive, which makes last hitting very easy with him. If you are experienced with him, you can creep the lane, then poke enemy heroes with q from time to time.

 

For weapon speed...I mean I like Tychus, so I would totally love a small boost...but with Fury+Cerebros+Heroic Passive+Isomorphic Pyre he gets down to about 0.5 Weapon Speed.

 

A general build I go on Tychus for some insight:

 

2/3/1 or 1/4/1 talents

Might-Fury, Fitness-Integrity-Discipline, Swiftness

Fury,Fitness-Integrity-Discipline-Fortify, Swiftness

 

Duran's Buckler>Lightning Rod>Newtonian Armor>Isomorphic Pyre>Force Of Entropy>Darksteel Titan>Contamination Shard/Galactic Defender>Contamination Shard/Galactic Defender>Cerebros>Sell Force of Entropy for Shadowmourne>Sell Cerebros for Explosive Retrofit (if necessary, usually I keep Cerebros)

 

I like this build better than builds that rely on Explosive Round (q) and early Cerebros/Atom Smasher simply because it has better late game potential and easier farming capability, as well as survivability.

 

There are times when Tychus is a better choice than say, Nova or Darpa. A enemy Leo could potentially wipe Nova or Darpa. Ain't gonna happen with Tychus. Tychus ult > Leo ult any day. Frankly, as long as you play him right and the enemy agility carry isn't fed, Tychus can easily kill a agility carry in a 1v1 scenario (at least the way I build him he does)...the carry is dealing more damage than I am, but the carry can't take the damage that I dish back right at him (or her).

 

Tychus is good late-game simply because he reaches his full potential later than many other heroes. So you can think with this perspective: if you were fighting a maxxed Nova as Tychus without being maxxed on equal footing, then what happens when you ARE maxxed?

 

Bio, I'm not too sure of...he is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none in my opinion. I feel that even the more experienced players make the mistake of not buying scanners and taser on him to avoid his ultimate being countered by smoke or aoe abilities (which I think would then leave only something like explosive retrofit, assuming the target's teammate's do not arrive in time to help). I think maybe Bio COULD use some sort of buff, simply because if you build him to play one role, he ends up failing miserably in another (i.e. if you build him tanky enough, he ends up not dealing very good damage, if you build him for some damage, he simply isn't tanky enough, etc).

Edited by taznkid
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Balrog is the most snowball-y hero in the game.... if you can get a decent early game, there will be nothing any enemy can do to you. If not.... well you won't be much more than an aura mule. That said, with lifesteal nerfs, his aura is insane. You are right about W being crap team support because you want to be in front of your allies, not beside them.

 

Tychus: boring, and very farm-reliant, but not hugely underpowered, I think..... the lower base attack speed you proposed would do the trick.

 

Immortal: very boring, but not up at all.

 

Rancor is fine (though an increase to break range on q would be nice)

 

Stukov has some nice debuffs if not the highest damage post nerf (which was needed, he was bursting boiies down left and right)

 

Erekul is fine if enemy team doesn't have silences of stuns of any kind. Otherwise, you get parallax or become useless.

 

Dont get mad at me, but some of this is not true or correct anymore.

 

Balrog isnt most snowball hero in game. Most snowball hero in game is nova and shadow, along with top nukers like cow, cyprus, ling and some invis assasins, zera can snowball, ghost can snowball decent etc Micro, Dehaka can snowball with their initiation capabilities. Balrog cant (If You snowball with balrog in game You can snowball with any other hero)

Balrog was insane snowball in previous meta, before nerfs, before dmg items introduced, heroes just could tank stupidly. Now You have better dmg items in meta together with true dmg ones- contam shard. Those heroes cant be immortal (and thats good, thats one step to proper direction of balance). Lifesteal was also nerfed. His aura is not insane, his aura is good. If You want "insane aura" its MK aura or it would be something like "+25%-30% dmg" or "+15% phys and spell res". Lifesteal is currently in good spot. For it to be really strong, You need to be really ahead and just won game already. Otherwise what I mentioned all other auras are better and i dont really want to explain it like for whole page why. The another huge reason why balrog was snowballing hard is because he was picked together with MK, most op hero for a long time.

 

And Tychus is not "little up" he is just up.

 

You are talking about hero with no dmg till 35-40 min mark normally, his non-skills q, w being weak with no scalling (cause You dont wanna go int tychus, like You dont wanna go int balrog etc, that just not good), only E being "ok" skill and ulti being good, his trademark skill, still his ult can be countered now as I said. Because his q and w are int their effectivness falls off dramatically and even with farm hero becomes little boring, because You just stand and AA and not play by your abillities. You need to have full stacks on passive for his Q and W early to be "decent skills" compared to other in game, with a hero that have terrible mana issues and atk speed issues.

You know why tychus is really bad? Cause how You play tychus? Hero needs basically everything. Tanking items, DMG items, ATK speed items, MANA items, Mobile items, CC items so he can do "smth" and i explained why its happening. And trust me he is not a "manofsteel" like he used to be late. His tankiness late is at good spot.

Changes I proposed to hero would make him little better early and the hero to have proper scalling. He would still need farm, some weakness (like mana, mobility issues) and You would make trade by picking this hero.

 

You could increase his atk speed a lot for him to be "ok" or good. But the thing is it would be boring and hero would not be as characteristic as just increasing aspeed a little (so he still needs some ias as a tank carry and ias items) and balancing scalling of his skills to normal values, stuff like this makes heroes what they truly are.

 

Im trying to rebalance heroes and bring heroes back by their roles. Not that heroes are picked mainly because of their one op spell, but their entire skillset and what they are. That makes hero fun, proper, full.

 

 

 

As opposed to Nova or Darpa, which you probably almost always would get in a IH (or some sort of agility carry) Tychus is more situational. Yes, Tychus does not deal more damage, but he can also take more damage. You aren't going to burst spell a Tychus (except in early game). It just isn't happening. And you don't put Tychus solo lane against anyone.

 

For weapon speed...I mean I like Tychus, so I would totally love a small boost...but with Fury+Cerebros+Heroic Passive+Isomorphic Pyre he gets down to about 0.5 Weapon Speed.

 

Tychus will currently never deal dmg a nova or darpa can nor he will be as mobile (even with buff to str scalling on Q as i proposed, his dmg on q would be just proper in late its some aoe nuke, not dps) The thing that tychus will not deal as much dmg as nova or darpa is correct.

 

If You go Pyre Fury Cerebro, then You are playing a hero to opposite what he is. For his ultimate to be effective he needs hp, str. He is suppose to be tank carry. If You go this items You are mentioning, You are super squishy even with Your ultimate. You will be just nuked down. You are also saying about 10,5k farm. Any normal carry, bah even most of the heroes can go max aspeed with such amount of farm and ias items. What You are saying is insane :) (dont get me wrong) And starsfury? Full cerebro? Like seriously? :D Why anybody would go starsfury on tychus? Its not even a common item. I could talk a alot about starsfury, but its not item balance discussion.

 

To better understand, You can go even tanking items on tychus, but it makes completly no sense currently. He can take then some beating and thats all. You know what any good player will do then? Just ignore tychus. Cause he cant put then any threat. He is not inititiator, so he doesnt have really usefull skills and he also have no dmg if You go tank.

 

Bio, I'm not too sure of...he is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none in my opinion. I feel that even the more experienced players make the mistake of not buying scanners and taser on him to avoid his ultimate being countered by smoke or aoe abilities (which I think would then leave only something like explosive retrofit, assuming the target's teammate's do not arrive in time to help). I think maybe Bio COULD use some sort of buff, simply because if you build him to play one role, he ends up failing miserably in another (i.e. if you build him tanky enough, he ends up not dealing very good damage, if you build him for some damage, he simply isn't tanky enough, etc).

 

And bio?????? he is not jak-of-all-trades, he is "sh..t-of-all-trades" atm. Bio have nothing. Very simliar to tychus, but way worse. Bio fails in every role.

You think that bio players, ihousers dont know about taser? lol. It doesnt work.

You go taser- You are super squishy and You have even more "no threat potential". Cause Your minions still die to any 1 aoe hit in game. And scanner on bio was standard but its sensless anymore. Cause people dont even need smokes anymore vs bio. I can just walkaway from his ult, cause the slow is pathethic together with 10 sec duration if I want to, or I can just kill the minions (not even saying about blink heroes and that his cd on ult is 80/70/60sec). He cant even push towers. He have maybe 10-12 minions with low dmg and no hp.

 

To be spellcaster bio would need to have lower cds on his spells and propably str scalling, so he can blink in and not die, and his passive and ultimate to be still scalling. But that would be such huge amount of balance and changing the hero itself.

Cause bio spells give him some nuking dmg early with scalling of spawning minions and those minions have scalling ability themself (in theory), thats how he is intended to work. His spells are useful so they dont need dmg (poking, survivabilty, escape mobility oriented). But currently it doesnt matter cause his minions are just so weak right now.

 

If cds would be lowered and his minions buffed very high than it would be problem cause bio would be back to what it was. Very fast farming, with high scalling minions and super hard to bring down.

 

But if cds stay what they are and his minions are buffed as suggested to some reasonable values than hero have role. (splitpusher, zoning hero, pressure map hero). You could still fight bio effectively with smokes, dsts, blinks, lockboxes, impact dials in team, with a team spells, with a 2x explosive etc

 

 

One question. Do You even play heroes You are talking about? (esp on at least decent lvl games) from what You say most of my friends would laugh :) Peace and no fights

Edited by SayMyName
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I never experienced bio as weak when i played him o_O all it needs is a taser ( unless they are fed to explosive) and your ulti is damn strong

 

If you build him int you can also do some insane dmg with q and claymore even endgame

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This suggestions are pretty weird imo, there are far more heroes that need slight changes ...

tychus doesn't need a buff imo, it's just other tanks being to slightly to strong,

TS should get a total change...

Bio is too weak ...he should spawn less zeds with more health ...

greelus isn't weak at all, still he is up my suggestion:

Add a 4 possible stack to his ulti and q should deal spell damage and deal twice as much damage

Immortal should just get removed and feral needs a rework

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That's one of the main problems with this game, the make op heroes, and ppl cry (ofc), then they overnerf them. I remember Lurker being banned in a tournament (not auto) after my first game with him because his damage was too high, after the tournament nerf after nerf and now no one plays it.

He was exceptionally OP back when he first came out. His Ult took no mana whatsoever, the scaling was insane, and his timescale was like triple what it is now. The issue with lurker in any decent game is where to lane him. All the opposing player has to do is ward or scan and he's screwed and can't farm. The burrow/unburrow animation makes him too weak. As for immortal, I could care less, just too boring to play. I play him once in awhile when I'm super lazy in a pub, even then I have to go 6 active items to make him interesting at all.
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@Indo - u talking about inhouse games or pubs?

 

I agree with most of the SMN statements here. But Balrog played as carry is actually the most 'snowbally' hero in the game. However he snowballs in different way than other standard carries do. The whole idea behind him is to become ahead enough, so during teamfight he can jump on enemy low armor hero and finish him before slow from his Leap is over. He is already tanky enough, so he doesn't have to think about positioning, etc. So if Balrog is able to jump in middle of teamfight on hero, finish him in 2-3 seconds and move back alive even when entire enemy team focused him, then u can't do nothing to stop him at that point. Team with fed Balrog has huge advantage and should finish game as fast as possible, before enemy carries can melt him too fast. However if Balrog get weak early game and he can't get a kill this way even on squishy target, than he become completely useless. Actually same thing we can say about Penthos - if he get ahead enough there is literally nothing which can stop him. Other carries snowball hard as well, but still they relies on positioning a lot, so if overexposed can get killed very fast. But u can't say the same about Balrog or Penthos.

 

Speaking about Balrog I agree that he need lower cooldowns for his abilities or lower mana cost. Played as support he is completely uneffective. The only thing he can do is being aura whore and use his entire skillset once per teamfight. No one will focus him anyway as his abilities do almost no damage. It is one of my fav heroes, I still see potential in him as that 'snowball' carry, but in current meta its very risky to play him this way. In other hand as support he is too weak. Definitely some buff is required.

 

Few ideas for other heroes:

Balrog - make his ulti each stack to give additional 2% of spell resist in area (up to 10%)

Bio - make his ulti to work as it used to be long time ago - faster target is moving, more damage he gets

Greelus - increase his Q range, slow power and slow duration. Make this ability as set up, long range initiation. Give him ability to put his heroic 'teleport' wherever he wants in some range from him, not only below him.

Tychus - faster initial weapon speed or higher initial weapon damage should help him a lot

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This suggestions are pretty weird imo, there are far more heroes that need slight changes ...

tychus doesn't need a buff imo, it's just other tanks being to slightly to strong,

TS should get a total change...

Bio is too weak ...he should spawn less zeds with more health ...

greelus isn't weak at all, still he is up my suggestion:

Add a 4 possible stack to his ulti and q should deal spell damage and deal twice as much damage

Immortal should just get removed and feral needs a rework

 

Some not experienced people may not understand. Being a pure tank does mean nothing. You can just ignore pure tank and he is creep. Tanking heroes to be useful need a useful skill - like initation, stuns etc or bringing some dmg (but they shouldnt be able to tank ininitly and have as high dmg as normal agi true dps carry, or as high burst as int heroes) Thats really simple as that.

 

Tychus is weak. He doesnt have role. All he can do is: stay on lane and take some beating, which is useless. His heal will not win You game. He lacks of dmg, of his skills to be really effective (Q, W) i suggested what to do to change that and what would fit hero. Many heroes have very weird scalling (str heroes tanks dps having scalling on int, which makes no sense in game). If You have proper scalling game is correct and logical. Its really ez fix to tychus balrog and kerrigan -> int scalling -> str scalling. You cant still get amount of str like int, so your nukes will be lower anyway. Str can tank better but not as high dps and not as high nuke, INT have high nukes and other support spells, sometimes mobile, most agi gives dmg and dps, but is squishy, often mobile. Thats the theory in general if You have proper design in this moba.

 

Ofc some str should be then adjusted, but still most time You can get at the end between 300 str - 350 str to 400 str (400 and above is lacking dps hard)

For example tychus Q have 130 dmg + 40% scalling (x2 full stacks) so its basically 260 dmg with 80% scalling-> with that 350 str it would be bonus 280 dmg so basically 540 dmg nuke before resists (full late), only good thing about his Q is low CD, but he needs to take time to make stacks, thats the trade and after blow he loses his ias. His healing could be too strong with going 180+50% x2 it would be 360+100 str (but pretty long cd - 14 sec), as 710 aoe heal late lategame, where aa dmg is high from agi dps, if it would be too much-> str scalling could be reduced to 40-35-30% str and be around 600ish.

 

Same stuff could be done to balrog and kerrigan (i feel str 100% scalling on balrog W would be fine, his ult could be reduced if needed from 150% int to 100% str)

 

And then You have just a good heroes (with slight ias on tychus and cds lowered on balrog as stated), that have roles and are fun (played by their skillset)

 

The other tanks are not too strong (only dehaka is currently too strong as I wrote). Some people think that nova or darpa or jakk are op (nova is slightly too strong but there is good nerf going on her mobility, darpa have also reworked jump which i dont like, darpa should stay as most mobile carry, kiter chaser with some support debuff skillset) its just that other heroes are weak, those heroes can bring You mostly only proper dps in game. Zera is mainly nuker teamfight hero, same leo, ling also nuker, boros- nuker. All meele heroes have natural problem with mobility and being kited (leo in less degree and shadow, but shadow is currently super strong, his dmg is too high early and meta favours too much splitpushing- no antisplitpushing solution but its a discussion for another topic) Only other heroes in pool that can give You dps are cain (after buff good hero at good spot), grunty (good hero in proper spot) kerrigan (viable but slightly up to other heroes mentioned, not as good) and thats all, cause tosh will not give You high dps, but maily really good stuns (thats why tosh is a good pick) and toxi is not a carry like some people tend to think, but a support int teamfight hero (when toxi will get his poisons like stukov have, he should be then in really good spot)

 

 

 

@Indo - u talking about inhouse games or pubs?

 

I agree with most of the SMN statements here. But Balrog played as carry is actually the most 'snowbally' hero in the game. However he snowballs in different way than other standard carries do. The whole idea behind him is to become ahead enough, so during teamfight he can jump on enemy low armor hero and finish him before slow from his Leap is over. He is already tanky enough, so he doesn't have to think about positioning, etc. So if Balrog is able to jump in middle of teamfight on hero, finish him in 2-3 seconds and move back alive even when entire enemy team focused him, then u can't do nothing to stop him at that point. Team with fed Balrog has huge advantage and should finish game as fast as possible, before enemy carries can melt him too fast. However if Balrog get weak early game and he can't get a kill this way even on squishy target, than he become completely useless. Actually same thing we can say about Penthos - if he get ahead enough there is literally nothing which can stop him. Other carries snowball hard as well, but still they relies on positioning a lot, so if overexposed can get killed very fast. But u can't say the same about Balrog or Penthos.

 

Speaking about Balrog I agree that he need lower cooldowns for his abilities or lower mana cost. Played as support he is completely uneffective. The only thing he can do is being aura whore and use his entire skillset once per teamfight. No one will focus him anyway as his abilities do almost no damage. It is one of my fav heroes, I still see potential in him as that 'snowball' carry, but in current meta its very risky to play him this way. In other hand as support he is too weak. Definitely some buff is required.

 

Few ideas for other heroes:

Balrog - make his ulti each stack to give additional 2% of spell resist in area (up to 10%)

Bio - make his ulti to work as it used to be long time ago - faster target is moving, more damage he gets

Greelus - increase his Q range, slow power and slow duration. Make this ability as set up, long range initiation. Give him ability to put his heroic 'teleport' wherever he wants in some range from him, not only below him.

Tychus - faster initial weapon speed or higher initial weapon damage should help him a lot

 

I dont agree with balrog being snowball hero. He was that hero back in previous meta as i stated, now he isnt. Lifesteal is nerfed. If im ahead i can snowball with any hero (if i can snowball in that situation with balrog)

 

Snowballing balrog doesnt work. Tell You why. He is slow with farming simple as that. You will not be ahead. He lacks of atk speed ot farm fast and efficiently jungle compared to agi carries with faster atk speed and sustain from matchete. So i end here theorycrafting and bringed You straight facts.

 

Second thing as I said there are a lot better dmg items. If You try go dps as balrog, You jump in and die, You melt. You can kill maybe a hero if You are lucky thats all.

 

Third enemy dps heroes by axe and thats a good way to deal with balrog.

 

Having him as a just sustain tank nuker not dps will do the job and make him what he was and better support with aura and debuff aoe and a slow. For that as i wrote, he needs lower cds (and scaling on str)

 

 

Idea of "just increasing tychus atkspeed and dmg early and not making proper scalling on his skills" i dont like, is not only because it would make him another boring aa mostly hero, but if we want to balance game properly and be interesting- jungling in some point needs to be nerfed (gold slightly) and lanes buffed (slightly buff to xp and gold) then having high aa range carries would be dominating lanes over meele and would be also hard to contest (too high starting range aa dmg on a carry) but this discussion is also for another topic.

 

 

______________________________________________

In this topic Im not talking about game where people dont see true diffrence between heroes, their strenght and cant understand what heroes can bring, what they are giving, where it doesnt matter if hero is weaker than others, have no role or not, make no sense or not etc. WIth all respect.

Edited by SayMyName
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Egon - I wish this guy would get some love... I mean, he's so UP no one even talks about him anymore. He throws nerf darts all game and doesn't scale for shap. Late game I just give up on attacking creep waves and try to heal my own creep. You can't even target siege creeps with his main Q skill. I think a hybrid dps/intel build is the only thing that would make him viable, and the only thing that's more of a joke than AA egon is his current state of UPness.

 

Bio - Totally disagree here. Bio has great farm, great escape and initiation, great ult. You have to build him coa/korhal/organic and just carpet the map in minions. Take out aeon lvl6. In team battles just ult the squshy and scan, then support team. He has infinite sustain so you never run out of mana. He can push towers by just carpeting minions everywhere. If you want to go godlike I guess bio is UP, but if you want to WIN THE GAME bio is excellent.

 

All the others I agree more-or-less, Tychus especially. When I random Tychus I tell everyone "I'll be mia for 40 minutes, then I will appear and wreck everyone". Problem is most games don't last that long.

Edited by rubicante
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I dont agree with balrog being snowball hero. He was that hero back in previous meta as i stated, now he isnt. Lifesteal is nerfed. If im ahead i can snowball with any hero (if i can snowball in that situation with balrog)

 

Snowballing balrog doesnt work. Tell You why. He is slow with farming simple as that. You will not be ahead. He lacks of atk speed ot farm fast and efficiently jungle compared to agi carries with faster atk speed and sustain from matchete. So i end here theorycrafting and bringed You straight facts.

 

Second thing as I said there are a lot better dmg items. If You try go dps as balrog, You jump in and die, You melt. You can kill maybe a hero if You are lucky thats all.

 

Third enemy dps heroes by axe and thats a good way to deal with balrog.

 

Having him as a just sustain tank nuker not dps will do the job and make him what he was and better support with aura and debuff aoe and a slow. For that as i wrote, he needs lower cds (and scaling on str)

But your 'facts' are actually theorycrafting. And u are wrong in both statements. The truth is Balrog can farm as fast as other carries, because:

- His passive decrease amount of hits u need to kill neutral camps

- He doesn't need machete, because he has leech aura (and he leech from his passive as well), so sustainability in lane or in jungle isn't a problem

- And played as carry he is not squishy, mainly because building him as carry doesn't necessary mean that u are getting pure weapon speed/weapon damage items which doesn't provide any health. Majority of Balrog damage output comes from his passive which scales with his max health. And that damage output is really noticeable mid game against low armor heroes. For example CoA gives around 38% weapon speed and 500 health and solve his mana issues.

 

I've played him many times this way and writing this from my own experience, not theorycrafting. If Balrog can keep good relation between his physical damage output vs enemies armor he will snowball very hard entire mid game. Late game his effectiveness will fall when enemies carries become too strong. Thats why it is very risky to give him such a role. And I agree with u that before some nerfs he got and nerf to DST (item is overnerfed in my opinion), he was snowballing much harder.

 

Bio - Totally disagree here. Bio has great farm, great escape and initiation, great ult. You have to build him coa/korhal/organic and just carpet the map in minions. Take out aeon lvl6. In team battles just ult the squshy and scan, then support team. He has infinite sustain so you never run out of mana. He can push towers by just carpeting minions everywhere. If you want to go godlike I guess bio is UP, but if you want to WIN THE GAME bio is excellent.

U are completely wrong. Bio farm early game is awful. He can only relies on his E which can be countered by single truesight ward. This way is very easy to keep him away from farm and experience. Its extremely hard for Bio to keep up with farm in lane. And if he is under-farmed - he is useless. His ultimate early game is very weak and minions dying very fast. U don't even need smoke screen to survive his ultimate. Most of the squishy heroes has AoE abilities which can clean up his minions easily. Others has additional mobility. He really requires good farm to make his minions strong enough to make his ultimate useful. In competitive environment Bio will simply fail.

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U are completely wrong. Bio farm early game is awful. He can only relies on his E which can be countered by single truesight ward. This way is very easy to keep him away from farm and experience. Its extremely hard for Bio to keep up with farm in lane. And if he is under-farmed - he is useless. His ultimate early game is very weak and minions dying very fast. U don't even need smoke screen to survive his ultimate. Most of the squishy heroes has AoE abilities which can clean up his minions easily. Others has additional mobility. He really requires good farm to make his minions strong enough to make his ultimate useful. In competitive environment Bio will simply fail.

 

If you're just sitting there burrowed, expecting them not to see you, then yes you will fail. The power of his burrow isn't to hide but to close distance or retreat. The power of his ultimate isn't to kill people but to disengage enemies (sometimes multiple if they choose to help) and affect any engagements in your teams favor. I wouldn't expect anyone to die to his ultimate in a competitive environment, but everything can be countered so whatever. Saying he can't farm must be a joke.

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Bio is fine in pubs but does horrible vs decent players and that's his problem,

e needs a lower CD while burrowed so that he can get at least some farm and his minions need better scaling

U can't compare pubs and IH.

 

what some good people here don't see:

 

balance ... Since aoe has no data that can't be used there won't be stats that help to see imbalances.

How does blizz the most balanced strategy game: data ... if a race wins more often with one strat/at a certain time in the game they rework some issues. if one race has more than 60 vs one race, it would be considered to be extremly op....

 

in als however u can say that heroes that are never picked are definitely up and those who are picked/banned very often are op.

That's a fact! In a perfect meta u would only ban heroes your opponents can play well.

That means heroes that are up are f.e.: rancor, fera, bio, greelus, Kerry, cyp ...

Heroes that are op are: shade, mk(maybe not after recent patch), dehaka,null, lz, nova, tosh, darpa ....

Those heroes need a nerf, either trough item changes or small nerfs...

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Dont get mad at me, but some of this is not true or correct anymore.

 

Balrog isnt most snowball hero in game. Most snowball hero in game is nova and shadow, along with top nukers like cow, cyprus, ling and some invis assasins, zera can snowball, ghost can snowball decent etc Micro, Dehaka can snowball with their initiation capabilities. Balrog cant (If You snowball with balrog in game You can snowball with any other hero)

Balrog was insane snowball in previous meta, before nerfs, before dmg items introduced, heroes just could tank stupidly. Now You have better dmg items in meta together with true dmg ones- contam shard. Those heroes cant be immortal (and thats good, thats one step to proper direction of balance). Lifesteal was also nerfed. His aura is not insane, his aura is good. If You want "insane aura" its MK aura or it would be something like "+25%-30% dmg" or "+15% phys and spell res". Lifesteal is currently in good spot. For it to be really strong, You need to be really ahead and just won game already. Otherwise what I mentioned all other auras are better and i dont really want to explain it like for whole page why. The another huge reason why balrog was snowballing hard is because he was picked together with MK, most op hero for a long time.

 

And Tychus is not "little up" he is just up.

 

You are talking about hero with no dmg till 35-40 min mark normally, his non-skills q, w being weak with no scalling (cause You dont wanna go int tychus, like You dont wanna go int balrog etc, that just not good), only E being "ok" skill and ulti being good, his trademark skill, still his ult can be countered now as I said. Because his q and w are int their effectivness falls off dramatically and even with farm hero becomes little boring, because You just stand and AA and not play by your abillities. You need to have full stacks on passive for his Q and W early to be "decent skills" compared to other in game, with a hero that have terrible mana issues and atk speed issues.

You know why tychus is really bad? Cause how You play tychus? Hero needs basically everything. Tanking items, DMG items, ATK speed items, MANA items, Mobile items, CC items so he can do "smth" and i explained why its happening. And trust me he is not a "manofsteel" like he used to be late. His tankiness late is at good spot.

Changes I proposed to hero would make him little better early and the hero to have proper scalling. He would still need farm, some weakness (like mana, mobility issues) and You would make trade by picking this hero.

 

You could increase his atk speed a lot for him to be "ok" or good. But the thing is it would be boring and hero would not be as characteristic as just increasing aspeed a little (so he still needs some ias as a tank carry and ias items) and balancing scalling of his skills to normal values, stuff like this makes heroes what they truly are.

 

Im trying to rebalance heroes and bring heroes back by their roles. Not that heroes are picked mainly because of their one op spell, but their entire skillset and what they are. That makes hero fun, proper, full.

 

 

 

 

 

Tychus will currently never deal dmg a nova or darpa can nor he will be as mobile (even with buff to str scalling on Q as i proposed, his dmg on q would be just proper in late its some aoe nuke, not dps) The thing that tychus will not deal as much dmg as nova or darpa is correct.

 

If You go Pyre Fury Cerebro, then You are playing a hero to opposite what he is. For his ultimate to be effective he needs hp, str. He is suppose to be tank carry. If You go this items You are mentioning, You are super squishy even with Your ultimate. You will be just nuked down. You are also saying about 10,5k farm. Any normal carry, bah even most of the heroes can go max aspeed with such amount of farm and ias items. What You are saying is insane :) (dont get me wrong) And starsfury? Full cerebro? Like seriously? :D Why anybody would go starsfury on tychus? Its not even a common item. I could talk a alot about starsfury, but its not item balance discussion.

 

To better understand, You can go even tanking items on tychus, but it makes completly no sense currently. He can take then some beating and thats all. You know what any good player will do then? Just ignore tychus. Cause he cant put then any threat. He is not inititiator, so he doesnt have really usefull skills and he also have no dmg if You go tank.

 

 

 

And bio?????? he is not jak-of-all-trades, he is "sh..t-of-all-trades" atm. Bio have nothing. Very simliar to tychus, but way worse. Bio fails in every role.

You think that bio players, ihousers dont know about taser? lol. It doesnt work.

You go taser- You are super squishy and You have even more "no threat potential". Cause Your minions still die to any 1 aoe hit in game. And scanner on bio was standard but its sensless anymore. Cause people dont even need smokes anymore vs bio. I can just walkaway from his ult, cause the slow is pathethic together with 10 sec duration if I want to, or I can just kill the minions (not even saying about blink heroes and that his cd on ult is 80/70/60sec). He cant even push towers. He have maybe 10-12 minions with low dmg and no hp.

 

To be spellcaster bio would need to have lower cds on his spells and propably str scalling, so he can blink in and not die, and his passive and ultimate to be still scalling. But that would be such huge amount of balance and changing the hero itself.

Cause bio spells give him some nuking dmg early with scalling of spawning minions and those minions have scalling ability themself (in theory), thats how he is intended to work. His spells are useful so they dont need dmg (poking, survivabilty, escape mobility oriented). But currently it doesnt matter cause his minions are just so weak right now.

 

If cds would be lowered and his minions buffed very high than it would be problem cause bio would be back to what it was. Very fast farming, with high scalling minions and super hard to bring down.

 

But if cds stay what they are and his minions are buffed as suggested to some reasonable values than hero have role. (splitpusher, zoning hero, pressure map hero). You could still fight bio effectively with smokes, dsts, blinks, lockboxes, impact dials in team, with a team spells, with a 2x explosive etc

 

 

One question. Do You even play heroes You are talking about? (esp on at least decent lvl games) from what You say most of my friends would laugh :) Peace and no fights

1. He is most certainly not squishy the way I build him...if you already have like 60% resist, whats the point of using ultimate? I personally play him by abusing the fact that his ultimate is off of cooldown for basically every teamfight, and get minimal tanking items.

 

2. You get Lightning Rod/Cerebros, because that solves his low damage issue early game and also gives good mana sustain, also scales W and Q a bit, as well as comboing well for the Cerebros procs.

 

3. When the hell did I say anything about Star's Fury?

 

4. Did I not say that I have played Tychus IH several times? So why are you making stupid statements asking if I even play him?

 

5. Do you know how much damage Tychus can deal built this way? You most certainly cannot "ignore" him, in fact I often get focused like a AA carry.

 

6. This could have been a nice discussion and debate...but you BM me and then say "peace no fights"? What kind of <Fluffy Bunny> are you to answer with such pompous style and then say such a hypocritical statement?

Edited by Dylan
Keep it civil please.
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Other heroes (forgotten ones) slight possible changes:

-Rancor Early game supp/stunner/nuker ganker. Teamfight hero. Map control hero. Anti invis hero.

Stun from 1.6 sec to 1.8 sec or even 2sec (stun duration could be dependent on duration of channeling time), Scan from 60/50/40/30 to 40/32/24/16

 

Fixing consume bug would be also nice :)

Can not agree more! 2 sec stun will give rancor better look! Just compare it with chronosphere, brain sap, impale (2.5sec), rocket lawncher (up to 5 and more), nitrogen round (3.3sec) etc.

Same goes for scans, sure rancor gets a 50% discount (for TS), but first one needs to farm those 600 minerals and its quite a job with farmers or carries in team A, and I shall add team B sometimes as well. Thats why less cooldown times for scans should be added.

 

But the most nerfed is Q!

1st of all its range (only 10), compare it with magic missile (12), aether swap (12), consuccive rebounder (can easily catch you up to 15-20 range), marked of death (reveals you up to 20 range no problemo), kill shot (no comments), despair (13.5...), predator misiles (15), etc.

2nd of all its animation time - it is ridicilously long! And can not be used late game, only in clear shot or when your opponent doesnt have abilities to interrupt it. In all other 80% of fights rancor gets spells cast on him and Q is worthless. Many other heroes have no animation time using their skills.

Animation time for Q should be reduced 4 times by level 16 - is my suggestion.

P.S. what is the animation time for Q by the way? cast 1,6 sec and stun for 1,6 sec?? What a math...

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