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Jungeling


John
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I know there's been several topics regarding this matter before, but I unfortunately I haven't been able to read the reasoning behind this feature.

 

 

Normally while playing games in general, there's usually a higher risk --> higher reward ratio, but in AOS it's the other way around...

 

The lowest risk, as well as the least skill depending thing to do is to put a guy in the jungle. This wouldn't be a huge problem if it wasn't the fact that the reward is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than any other option there is in the game....

 

 

I could elaborate further on this topic but as I already mentioned this is hardly the first one, problems such as hardcarrys that's meant to struggle early, doesn't only get a free pass in the early stages of the game, they also gets more xp and gold than any other hero so in the team, AT NO RISK AT ALL has been pointed out on more than one occasion. I've seen so many arguments on why jungeling is stupid on AOS, but I've never seen a list why it's designed the way it is.

 

 

When playing a game, the question isn't if we should run a jungle, the question is who gets the no brain mission with a hardcarry this game? basically it's same strategy every game which makes the game dull.

 

 

 

So yeah, back to the question, why is the biggest no brainer also the most rewarding thing in the game? Would appreciate if an answer from devs on this.

Edited by John
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It doesn't just affect inhouses either. In pubs, people don't do anything except run around and farm jungle, then go and fight when all jungle camps on your side of the map are dead. This lowers team play even more, and it rewards them hugely since jungle gives so much money, causing them to be very strong because they bought machette and a-clicked creeps while in near complete safety because there is a tower 10 units away.

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I'm pretty sure jungling meta has changed at the point when there were changes to creep waves around beginning of 6.0. Creep wave spawn rate was increased 2 times and money from single creep decreased by half to even potential income. However creep waves were stacking too fast and too easily. Therefore creep wave spawning rate was reduced little bit (from +100% to +50%), but bounty per creep stayed at the same level. That change also increased overall game duration as palyers needs more time to finish their builds or to become ahead enough to opponents.

 

I was suggesting this already few times - increase mineral bounty for killing single creep in wave (+50% at least) and it will fix current jungling meta, force players to be more careful about last hitting and denying, reward those carry players which can last hit better and decrease average duration of the match. It would nerf passive income as well which has really high part in overall income.

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I played a IH game not even 2 days ago where we drafted Nova and Darpa. I was in the jungle as nova and darpa was in lane.

 

I had 7 kills 9 assist 200 cs

 

Darpa had 7 kills 8 assist 206cs

 

And my net worth was about 5k higher then his and i was easily 2 full items ahead of him

 

It just shows how strong jungling is.

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I'm pretty sure jungling meta has changed at the point when there were changes to creep waves around beginning of 6.0. Creep wave spawn rate was increased 2 times and money from single creep decreased by half to even potential income. However creep waves were stacking too fast and too easily. Therefore creep wave spawning rate was reduced little bit (from +100% to +50%), but bounty per creep stayed at the same level. That change also increased overall game duration as palyers needs more time to finish their builds or to become ahead enough to opponents.

 

I was suggesting this already few times - increase mineral bounty for killing single creep in wave (+50% at least) and it will fix current jungling meta, force players to be more careful about last hitting and denying, reward those carry players which can last hit better and decrease average duration of the match. It would nerf passive income as well which has really high part in overall income.

This would be a great fix, +1
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Imo theres also another point that jungling is plain boring for everyone in the game.

 

But imo if you make it harder than how do you not jungle with leo, crackling, shadow? Even nova n darpa require strong laning partners... Pubs with dps could become nightmares vs good casters, such as maar, mule, unix, ere etc. the cost of items right now is quite costy...

+1 to spookys suggestion, but i feel that strong laners than would receive op advantage, full item by maar on the 30th minute? :)

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I was suggesting this already few times - increase mineral bounty for killing single creep in wave (+50% at least) and it will fix current jungling meta, force players to be more careful about last hitting and denying, reward those carry players which can last hit better and decrease average duration of the match. It would nerf passive income as well which has really high part in overall income.

 

Considering how easy it is to wave clear in AoS, even with carries thanks to certain builds, I disagree completely...

 

Unless you make Jungle creep camps more difficult (be creative with this) in the sense that it would take at least 2 heroes up until level 6-8 to take down the most bountiful camps. This will force players, especially carries to stay in their lane or abandon it as a group in favor of the jungle at the risk of being pushed. You shouldn't be able to clear camps with relative ease until past level 11-12.

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I actually liked it back in the days when the camps were more difficult but also when you killed them they spawned in the lanes. it gave a better reason to make sure to kill the camps. I don't remember anyone being able to solo the camps at the start solo. usually took like level 4 or 5 to be able to solo them. and even then you couldn't run around and solo them like you can now. maybe kill like 2-3 camps then you need to heal up.

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I actually liked it back in the days when the camps were more difficult but also when you killed them they spawned in the lanes. it gave a better reason to make sure to kill the camps. I don't remember anyone being able to solo the camps at the start solo. usually took like level 4 or 5 to be able to solo them. and even then you couldn't run around and solo them like you can now. maybe kill like 2-3 camps then you need to heal up.

Lol, they were as easy to kill back then as now. They didnt give good money back then, just some extra, so people didnt really bother to jungle quite as much as they do now. Lane creeps were more important. But you could kill neutrals as fast as you can now.

 

Sadly in v3 we had times, when lz would jungle for 30 minutes and then come out of nowhere and would ludacris all game long till the end. I remember how the devs decided that it was too op and changed it. Three years later we're seeing same stuff again, and I sure that eventually they might change it again. But now, I think, big dota projects influencing ours too much...

Edited by mynhauzen
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It wasn't only about creeps, but entire laning faze was far more important. Denying was stealing more experience, last hits was giving more money. It was much easier to dominate in lane which was putting enemies extremely behind. So it was very important to create good laning compositions. Right now passive income provides around 50% of minerals which average u can get from creeps in lane (50 creeps per 10 minutes). Buying 2 gp10 items is doubling - evening that income. I'm not counting kills, assists, bosses or towers. Denying is reducing almost unnoticeable amount of experience. The only way to dominate in lane is by keeping enemy out of experience range, which basically is possible only in lanes with Micro, Brine or LZ.

 

So in my opinion creeps should provide more minerals and denying should steal more experience. Early game is reduced only to taking down first tower, securing aeon and ganking by jungler. Laning faze is rather boring as its mainly about not to get ganked by enemy jungler.

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We have brought this up with Eko and Red several times before on mumble.

 

The most recent time got a slight change to jungle camps but i dont really notice a difference. The last time EKO too a look into it was when majority of the ranged AA heroes got a straight damage cut early game. Trying to make it much harder for Ranged AA to jungle compared to melee. While the dmg cut seemd to make range aa more balanced over all. It didnt do much for jungling.

 

I think one of the problems is the sustain on machete is a bit high. The flat leech. is at 12. In LOL i think the flat leech is 4 for ranged and 5 for melee. But the item cost about half of what AOS machete cost.

 

Maybe nerfing the leech some will have a noticeable difference.

 

But Personally for me I hate how safe the jungle is. Almost every camp is within 5 units of a allied tower. There is almost no counter jungling. Even if you do a successfully gank on the enemy in his own jungle. Mid and Side lanes will be on you in a matter of seconds cutting off your escape. Because the jungle routes are simple and few. This is due to the same problem the base has. The map is just to small. The map needs to be reworked completly. Making jungle more balanced and making the base bigger. So you can actually push up into the enemy base.

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I'm pretty sure jungling meta has changed at the point when there were changes to creep waves around beginning of 6.0. Creep wave spawn rate was increased 2 times and money from single creep decreased by half to even potential income. However creep waves were stacking too fast and too easily. Therefore creep wave spawning rate was reduced little bit (from +100% to +50%), but bounty per creep stayed at the same level. That change also increased overall game duration as palyers needs more time to finish their builds or to become ahead enough to opponents.

 

I was suggesting this already few times - increase mineral bounty for killing single creep in wave (+50% at least) and it will fix current jungling meta, force players to be more careful about last hitting and denying, reward those carry players which can last hit better and decrease average duration of the match. It would nerf passive income as well which has really high part in overall income.

 

Best post in this thread ^^

 

I honestly cannot see anything negative about this change.

 

I can tell you creep denying seems to be less effective than just pushing a lane. With the lane pushed, you might steal the jungle creeps from your opponents. This is a much bigger advantage, than denying the creeps.

 

Most people assume, having 1 person "jungle" is a superior plan, than to having the team jungle as a whole. I am not sure who ever ran these numbers or figured out having 1 OP carry, vs one team on average 1 level higher. Why not run 2-1-2 lanes with jungle shared?.

Well there are 2 jungle spots per team that are inconvenient to get to.

 

I would be interested in hearing when "jungling 1 hero" became the meta for this game. As far as i can see, it creates one OP carry … then team fights occur.

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Best post in this thread ^^

 

I honestly cannot see anything negative about this change.

 

I can tell you creep denying seems to be less effective than just pushing a lane. With the lane pushed, you might steal the jungle creeps from your opponents. This is a much bigger advantage, than denying the creeps.

 

Most people assume, having 1 person "jungle" is a superior plan, than to having the team jungle as a whole. I am not sure who ever ran these numbers or figured out having 1 OP carry, vs one team on average 1 level higher. Why not run 2-1-2 lanes with jungle shared?.

Well there are 2 jungle spots per team that are inconvenient to get to.

 

I would be interested in hearing when "jungling 1 hero" became the meta for this game. As far as i can see, it creates one OP carry … then team fights occur.

 

I'd be reluctant to heavily alter the income patterns currently in the game. Item development over the course of a game is just about right for non-jungling heroes, in my opinion. I would slightly increase the income from standard waves (maybe +2 minerals per basic unit and leave the seige creep as is) and cut the minerals on the tanks and thors pretty substantially (~25 minerals less for each income level on the thor and tank which could be expected to cut the income of a jungler anywhere from 400-1000 minerals over the course of a game). I think the bat is fine because it is actually the heaviest damage camp and already gives the least minerals.

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+2 minerals is exactly what Tosh passive unique provides. Its almost unnoticeable difference. U have to kill 50 creeps to get 100 minerals more. U can't even buy Truesight ward for that...

 

So minerals/experience bounty from neutrals should get reduced or from creep waves increased. There is no other way

Edited by Spooky
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But used to be strongest neutral and ironically enough gave the lowest exp of the 3 but since they removed his dot he doesn't hurt that much.

 

Im not sure why DOT was removed but if i had to guess. Its so MK ulted fire bat doesn't annihilate towers as fast?

 

I still don't understand why towers don't get a built in paralax

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