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[Game Statistics] Cool-down Reduction


Darit
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Does the statistic Cooldown Reduction stack with itself or not at all?

 

And if it does stack is it linear or do you receive diminishing returns?

 

15%+15%

 

15%+15%(DR)

 

Are there any other statistics that act this way if they do not stack aside from the obvious Unique and Leveled attachments on items?

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diminishing returns

 

best to think of it like this;

currently your cooldown is 100% of normal

if you got 15% it would go down to 85%

if you got another 15% it would go down to 72.25%

 

i really wish they would let me make a game mechanics section, i have asked the devs about this for nearly a year now, instead it seems we can only have items and heroes

Edited by ANARCHY
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diminishing returns

 

best to think of it like this;

currently your cooldown is 100% of normal

if you got 15% it would go down to 85%

if you got another 15% it would go down to 72.25%

 

i really wish they would let me make a game mechanics section, i have asked the devs about this for nearly a year now, instead it seems we can only have items and heroes

 

The new CDR does not have diminishing returns effects. It simply makes your skill going off CD faster.

 

CDR was introduced to replace the old "time scale" in which diminishing returns takes effect and was causing lots of misunderstanding and confusions thus being changed.

 

Please do not post anything if you are not certain. Thanks.

 

I've seem you on Mumble quite a lot. What you should do is go into a channel and ask other more experienced players about the mechanics and get a confirmation before posting. I even do this myself, still, to make sure the information I post on the forums are accurate.

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The new CDR does not have diminishing returns effects. It simply makes your skill going off CD faster.

 

CDR was introduced to replace the old "time scale" in which diminishing returns takes effect and was causing lots of misunderstanding and confusions thus being changed.

 

Please do not post anything if you are not certain. Thanks.

 

I've seem you on Mumble quite a lot. What you should do is go into a channel and ask other more experienced players about the mechanics and get a confirmation before posting. I even do this myself, still, to make sure the information I post on the forums are accurate.

 

Meh, I thought CD reductions by a % was still effected by diminishing returns.

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Meh, I thought CD reductions by a % was still effected by diminishing returns.

 

It is diminishing returns.

 

If you have 100% cd reduction on a 20 second cd skill, it will then get reduced to 10 seconds.

 

If you add another 100% cd, you then reduce the cooldown of your skill to 5 seconds not 0 seconds, as would be the case if cooldown reduction did not have diminishing returns.

 

So as you can see the first lot of cooldown reduction reduced the cooldown by 10 seconds whereas the second 100% cooldown reduction only reduced the cooldown by 5 seconds, this is the very definition of diminishing returns.

 

 

The new CDR does not have diminishing returns effects. It simply makes your skill going off CD faster.

 

Please do not post anything if you are not certain. Thanks.

 

What you should do is go into a channel and ask other more experienced players about the mechanics and get a confirmation before posting.

 

 

So the rule is that 15+15=30 then? Aside from the more advanced mathematical applications 100% CDR would cut a CD in half. Correct?

 

If you have 2 15% cooldown reduction items, you get an effective cooldown of approx 75.6% of your original cooldown.

 

There is probably a proper way to work this out but here is how I do it.

 

To work out a 15% cd reduction you go 100 divided by 1.15, which gives you roughly 87% of your original cd, so in reality a 15% cd reduction only gives you 13%, because of the way it works.

 

 

 

Edit: I hope I'm right in this otherwise it's gonna be pretty embarrassing lol.

Edited by Dylan
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Its definitely diminishing returns, but by which algorithm I do not know. 5 TPI in testmode brings a 60s cd down to ~40s. Taking 100% cd and dividing by 1.1 for each 10% cd item gives you 62.09% which is ~37s. Other way is by multiplying 100% by .9 for each 10% cd item which gives you 59% and ~35.4s. Making me believe that it is the first method.

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If you have 100% cd reduction on a 20 second cd skill, it will then get reduced to 10 seconds.

 

If you add another 100% cd, you then reduce the cooldown of your skill to 5 seconds not 0 seconds, as would be the case if cooldown reduction did not have diminishing returns.

It's a hard topic as the effect of cdr isn't linear. stacking cdr does NOT suffer from deminishing returns

This example 1 item 100% cdr 20 seconds skill reduces it to 10 seconds, we can conclude 100% cdr cuts time in half

if you have 2 items of 100% cdr the following happens:

AbilityCD/(1+cdr#1+cdr#2) = NewCD= 20/(1+1+1) = 20/3

where CDR = cdr in % /100 so 123% cdr = 1.23

Now if you have 1 item that gives 200% cdr (none exist but simpler math)

AbilityCD/(1+2) = NewCD = 20/3 so its the same

 

This unlike spellresist 1 item 30% spellresist 100 dmg would give 70 dmg

3 x 1 item 10 % spellresist 100 dmg Firstitem lowers it to 90 dmg Second item lowers it to 81 dmg third item lowers it to 72.9 (math simplified again)

So in this case 1*30 isn't 3*10% were with cdr 2*100 = 1*200 stacking cdr doesn't give diminishing returns.

 

And if it does stack is it linear or do you receive diminishing returns?

So to answer this hard question Yes CDR stacks linear, Yes you get deminishing returns because of how CDR works

(first 100% will have a bigger influence then following 100%, but it doesn't matter if you get 100 items(if possible) that give 1% cdr or 1 item that gives 100%cdr)

 

 

edit*:

Its definitely diminishing returns, but by which algorithm I do not know. 5 TPI in testmode brings a 60s cd down to ~40s. Taking 100% cd and dividing by 1.1 for each 10% cd item gives you 62.09% which is ~37s. Other way is by multiplying 100% by .9 for each 10% cd item which gives you 59% and ~35.4s. Making me believe that it is the first method.

If you played a few versions back you would notice cdr did nothing, theoretically (and if unchanged after introduced) there shouldn't be a differences between 5 tpi and seed passive proc

 

Edit** messed up my maths

Edited by zeeeend
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Using Tbone for the simple test because his ult has an one minute CD (60 whole seconds).

 

With 15% CDR. His ult CD goes from 60 seconds to 51 seconds.

 

With 60% CDR. His ult CD goes from 60 seconds to 36 seconds.

 

With 90% CDR. His ult CD goes from 60 seconds to 31 seconds.

 

With 100% CDR. His ult CD will be cut in half to 30 seconds which is not doable since it is hard capped at 90% (with 6 item slots).

 

I am pretty sure the calculation on Starcraft II engine ignores anything below 0.1 and will not be factored in.

 

I do not see any diminishing returns in my testing and, with 6 items, 90% is as high as you can go.

 

 

Note that if you are doing testing yourself. Be sure to pick a skill that has a whole minute CD (Like Cow's Ult: 60 seconds) because the interval used by Galaxy will cause the number to go off.

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wow another terrible analysis please stop with these kind of posts your just confusing people, having lots of posts does not make you good at maths

 

100% reduction of anything reduces it to 0 but this is not achievable

if you got max cdr items or 6 items at 15% cdr =90% in items you would reduce a 1 minute cooldown to 6 seconds <--- THIS IS WRONG go ahead and try it

multiplication of fractions or decimals is a diminishing return in itself

 

the equation or way to easily work out how much reduction you will receive by an item is simple;

ability cooldown * cooldown reduction on item 1 = new cooldown * cooldown reduction on item 2 = and so on

or

60 seconds * 0.85 (15%) = 51 seconds * 0.85 = 43.35

 

for the technical side of it

(item#1 cdr * item#2 cdr * item#3 cdr * item#4 cdr * item#5 cdr * item#6 cdr)*ability cooldown

whenever you multiply 2 decimals or fractions together you will always end up with less but there is no point in time where it will get to 0

Edited by ANARCHY
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wow another terrible analysis please stop with these kind of posts your just confusing people, having lots of posts does not make you good at maths

 

100% reduction of anything reduces it to 0 but this is not achievable

if you got max cdr items or 6 items at 15% cdr =90% in items you would reduce a 1 minute cooldown to 6 seconds <--- THIS IS WRONG go ahead and try it

multiplication of fractions or decimals is a diminishing return in itself

 

the equation or way to easily work out how much reduction you will receive by an item is simple;

ability cooldown * cooldown reduction on item 1 = new cooldown * cooldown reduction on item 2 = and so on

or

60 seconds * 0.85 (15%) = 51 seconds * 0.85 = 43.35

 

for the technical side of it

(item#1 cdr * item#2 cdr * item#3 cdr * item#4 cdr * item#5 cdr * item#6 cdr)*ability cooldown

whenever you multiply 2 decimals or fractions together you will always end up with less but there is no point in time where it will get to 0

 

I thought that the cdr% got added together before the calculation was done, so that you don't get less via stacking.

 

So for example if you have 2 15% cdr items it would be:

 

60/1.3=46.15s

 

as opposed to what you have above.

 

60*0.85=51 51*0.85=43.35s

 

 

But however it is calculated the important thing is that it is diminishing returns.

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there is one item in game that gives 100% cdr for I think 10 seconds. the item is seed. but you have to kill or get an assist. I had that, seed, cerebro, yamato, korhal, energy saber, and coat of arms. even after killing someone my toilet didn't come off cd any faster it seemed.

 

lol, must be really bugged then, I guess we will never find out how cdr is calculated.

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there is one item in game that gives 100% cdr for I think 10 seconds. the item is seed. but you have to kill or get an assist. I had that, seed, cerebro, yamato, korhal, energy saber, and coat of arms. even after killing someone my toilet didn't come off cd any faster it seemed.

hmmm 2 things could be happening;

 

for every second the toilet is on CD it gains that amount of reduction = for first 5 seconds seed procs you get 5 seconds off cd instantly, the rest will be like above how i said before & im pretty sure this is the way it works so that you cant get instant re cast on spells

 

the other thing that could be happening is someone decided it would be wise to use the formula in division format

i.e. 60 second cd /1.15 (15%) and so on, you get almost the same amount of cdr but im guessing someone didnt realise the items where coded this way and coded seed differently probably giving it a value of 100 then the game sees 100 and that just translates into 100% or 1 so dividing 60 by 1 = 60 which is no cdr at all

Edited by ANARCHY
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hmmm 2 things could be happening;

 

for every second the toilet is on CD it gains that amount of reduction = for first 5 seconds seed procs you get 5 seconds off cd instantly, the rest will be like above how i said before & im pretty sure this is the way it works so that you cant get instant re cast on spells

 

the other thing that could be happening is someone decided it would be wise to use the formula in division format

i.e. 60 second cd /1.15 (15%) and so on, you get almost the same amount of cdr but im guessing someone didnt realise the items where coded this way and coded seed differently probably giving it a value of 100 then the game sees 100 and that just translates into 100% or 1 so dividing 60 by 1 = 60 which is no cdr at all

You are making this unclear, you say i am pretty sure how this works. We tested it and are 100% sure.

100% cdr from seed is cuts the time in

 

half i.e. 10 seconds cd becomes 5.

Go test it the way Eternity says: Cow ulti + cdr. Come back here either apologize or just quietly remove your posts because you are confusing people who dont understand it.

 

So this:

wow another terrible analysis please stop with these kind of posts your just confusing people, having lots of posts does not make you good at maths

Goes for your posts in this thread.

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Zeeeend can you post the formula you are using please? I don't fully understand how cdr stacks from your example.

 

Anarchy posted his formula and it looks like the one used in calculating resistances, but this kind of breaks down when seed (100% cdr) is used since you are multiplying through by zero and hence have zero cooldown for the time seed is active but I've never seen my spells come off cd instantly with seed on.

 

From Eternity's post I gather he said that cdr stacks like this,

 

AbilityCD/(1+cdr#1+...+cdr#n) = NewCD

 

So it's kind of like how weapon speed stacks. So seed works here because it just doubles your cdr. I think this is consistent with what Zeeeend said, not sure though.

Edited by Zaid
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It all comes down to language problem as it seems.

 

Zaid, here is a real life example here:

 

Person A can complete a task in 100 minutes.

 

Person B can complete the same task in 50 minutes.

 

We say "Person B can do the same task 100% faster."

 

When person B can do it 100% faster does not mean that he can instantly finish the task, it means he does it twice as fast.

 

Apply this logic to the "Seed" problem but do it in reverse. I hope this resolve jamesalot's question.

 

Also, keep it in mind that Seed applies 100% CDR for 4 seconds (confirmation needed). I can go in more detail if anyone interested but I have to leave for work.

 

For any confusion, simply get on Starcraft II and pick Tbone in test mode and having the game time displayed then do the same setup I did above.

 

When you get 90% CDR and your toliet CD will be 31 seconds. It is as close as it can get to understand the task example I shown above.

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It's a hard topic as the effect of cdr isn't linear. stacking cdr does NOT suffer from deminishing returns

This example 1 item 100% cdr 20 seconds skill reduces it to 10 seconds, we can conclude 100% cdr cuts time in half

if you have 2 items of 100% cdr, 20 seconds time Firstitem effect lowers to 10 seconds (cuts time in half) Seconditem 100% cdr on 10 seconds lowers it to 5 seconds (cuts time in half)

Now if you have 1 item that gives 200% cdr (none exist but simpler math) 20 seconds skill will be reduced to 5 seconds. The same as 2 items of 100% cdr so getting it from any source you can stacks.

 

Sorry I still don't understand how you are stacking cdr. This example you gave really confused me, which is why I want you to just write the equation that you used to calculate those numbers.

 

I understand that cdr is applied by dividing, so 60 sec cd with 15% cdr goes to 60/1.15. What I don't understand is how it stacks, ie 60 sec cd with two 15% cdr. What does that become? Is it 60/1.3 or 60/(1.15)^2 ?

 

In either case it's not consistent with Zeeeend's example above. If the stacking is additive in the denominator then two items with 100% cdr on a 20 sec cd would lower it to 20/3, but Zeeeend said it is 20/4. If the stacking is multiplicative in the denominator then two items with 100% cdr on a 20 sec cd would lower it to 20/4 which is the same as what Zeeeend said. But now the problem is this is not the same as one item with 200% cdr, since that would lower the cd to 20/3.

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I have spoke with ECKO and confirmed that CDR does stacks in a linear fashion with no diminishing returns.

 

The formula I used is indeed AbilityCD/(1+cdr#1+...+cdr#n) = NewCD so Zaid is spot on.

 

Thanks Zeeeend for the explanation. You inspired me to come up with the real life example this morning!

 

Person A can complete a task in 100 minutes.

 

Person B can complete the same task in 50 minutes.

 

We say "Person B can do the same task 100% faster."

 

When person B can do it 100% faster does not mean that he can instantly finish the task, it means he does it twice as fast.

 

When Symphonic Seed is activated, it boosts the CDR to 100% for 5 seconds so it will cut the skill cool down in half if the skill CD is short enough to be fully effected by the activation. (Note that this does not effect skills with charges after first charge)

 

If a skill that has a 5 second CD, it will be 2.5 seconds instead.

 

(The actual in-game CD will be 2.4 seconds due to Symphonic Seed itself has 10% CDR)

 

5 / (1+1.1) = 2.38 = 2.4 seconds (Galaxy Editor ignore anything below 0.1)

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I have spoke with ECKO and confirmed that CDR does stacks in a linear fashion with no diminishing returns.

 

The formula I used is indeed AbilityCD/(1+cdr#1+...+cdr#n) = NewCD so Zaid is spot on.

 

Thanks Zeeeend for the explanation. You inspired me to come up with the real life example this morning!

 

 

 

When Symphonic Seed is activated, it boosts the CDR to 100% for 5 seconds so it will cut the skill cool down in half if the skill CD is short enough to be fully effected by the activation. (Note that this does not effect skills with charges)

 

If a skill that has a 5 second CD, it will be 2.5 seconds instead.

 

(The actual in-game CD will be 2.4 seconds due to Symphonic Seed itself has 10% CDR)

 

5 / (1+1.1) = 2.38 = 2.4 seconds (Galaxy Editor ignore anything below 0.1)

 

It does affect skills with charges :) But only the 1st charge

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