Straighter Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I dont want this to be a QQ shadow dont needs skill, op thread. I dont think shadow is op so this is not a real topic for balance debate ... still i think it fits in this category So whats my problem with shadow? My problem with shadow is that hes really strong in pubs ... and i think hes ruining most public games .... since i dont have that many ppl around that want to play IH with me .... i play pubs pretty often. 99% of ppl playin this game, are playin public games. i think in 80% of these games at least one side has a shadow as he is easy to play (doesnt show up on minimap, doesnt have skill shots, all of his abilities are both initiation and escape)... i know hes also a strong pick IH because he can splitpush and escape well .... my personal opinion about his skills: - not showing on minimap: this is the most ridiculous issue about him imo ... map awareness and warding helps u vs any ganks ... except of shadows ... not being able to see him coming has no counter ... especially in pubs ... - his Q, escape initiation, aoe damage its a good spell but i dont think this needs a change at all - W ... i dont like this spell at all, there is a reason they have removed vortex in HOTS ... removing enemies/projects from game for a short time and the movement speed is just too strong ... allowing him to ignore single enemies or grouped up ones is huge, and this spell is both really strong initiation or a really easy and safe escape mechanism -E the movement speed addtional to his passiv is strong but also needed, his " teleport" is ok, allows him to aa running enemies is also needed but its still not a weak skill at all -R this spell too strong too imo ... being forced to carry scanners lategame is kinda ridiculous (most pub players dont even carry scanners vs him) ... also it helps vs skillshots and the timescale is amazing, in addition its a nice escape too similiar to a smoke grenade ... its really easy to get fed as shadow and win a game on his own.... in my experience at least 50% of the pub games i lose are because a shadow gets fed .... and i think its even more if both teams have no good players ... this is ruining the game for most players because they have about no chance to win vs shadow i know that shadow isnt that strong vs good teamplay but u just cant have that in pubs ... and most players that play this games are playin public games ... sayin: play IH doesnt solve this problem my personal idea would be to change shadow: -change W: either a new skill or change the cast range to 0 and slightly increase size -change R: just cloak him instead of 0 sightrange for enemies - remove his invisibilty on the minimap at least make him seeable with ts wards ... do you guys think hes fine the way he is? i know most guys playin pubs are noobs but those ppl are just the most ppl playin this game and i think most pub players would agree to change shadow what do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomheartman Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Another topic bout shady... For me i want to say 1 thing: i think it is strange that true sight helps you to see through smoke screen and don't help you with shadow's ulti. you can fight with shadow early/mid game by buying scanners and you can't do that in late game coz you have no empty slots for scanners. Even with rancor in your team shadow will kill few guys before scanner will be used. And why shadow's mates still can see whats going on in shadow's ult? i remember 1 of the suggestion was that allies sight will be reduced to 0 as well. Another point of view about shadow - his passive: Every 5 seconds Shadow is out of combat, he gains 3% Movement Speed and becomes harder to see, stacking up to 21% Movement Speed. These stacks are removed when Shadow deals or takes damage. About what kind of "harder to see" we are talking about if hero has huge banner above his head: "look, here i am"? Suggestion as said before: 1. add 1 consumables slot. 2. shadow reveals on the map when attacks. Edited January 21, 2014 by atomheartman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginosaji Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) In my experience (I play mostly casters in pubs) over the past month or so shadow hasn't been any more of a problem than any other dps/gank hero in the game. Grunty, Nova, Darpa, Ling, leo, zera, boros, etc. can take over a game as well if fed. Yes, shadow has the movespeed that other heroes don't to go and hunt down your team's weakest link, but I usually don't have a problem countering him. I don't think he should be reworked.... -make him show up on minimap when attacking -make his passive (Movespeed) scale with level... this would make it so it's a little harder for him to get around the map early game to snowball before the game has really begun. Another option... play burst casters and trolololol your way to 25-5 k/d every game because every scrub goes glass cannon agi. Edited January 21, 2014 by ginosaji Ironsights and MOTHER 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straighter Posted January 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 In my experience (I play mostly casters in pubs) over the past month or so shadow hasn't been any more of a problem than any other dps/gank hero in the game. Grunty, Nova, Darpa, Ling, leo, zera, boros, etc. can take over a game as well if fed. Yes, shadow has the movespeed that other heroes don't to go and hunt down your team's weakest link, but I usually don't have a problem countering him. I don't think he should be reworked.... -make him show up on minimap when attacking -make his passive (Movespeed) scale with level... this would make it so it's a little harder for him to get around the map early game to snowball before the game has really begun. Another option... play burst casters and trolololol your way to 25-5 k/d every game because every scrub goes glass cannon agi. i know how to win pubs thats not the problem lol ... and i know that most shadows "suck" because they just paly 1a glasscannon builds. But still hes ruining most pub games if most of my team players are new... i know that any hero can carry but its especially easy with hero to pubstomp because of the easy escape and initiation in a meelee carry .... ive havent seen "newbs" playin pubstomp with tosh or boros for example, cause both arent good if u dont know how to use skillshots and positioning ... if u would be new to the game, if u ask average public players what hero they dont like its nearly always shadow ... I REALLY DONT WANT TO SAY QQ SHADOW OP NERFPLS ... i just mean if u look throught the eyes of 99% percent of player, u would have more fun if shadow would get chanced ... and i say changed because i dont want to nerf him IH i would just nerf minimap "skill" i think that is a little broken in general ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginosaji Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) my personal idea would be to change shadow: -change W: either a new skill or change the cast range to 0 and slightly increase size -change R: just cloak him instead of 0 sightrange for enemies - remove his invisibilty on the minimap at least make him seeable with ts wards ... Vortex is a strong skill, but what would be the point of having a 0 range approach/initiation mechanic? I also disagree with changing his Ult. It's unique in how it can counter aoe casters. I disagree with removing his invisibility on minimap as well. TS wards do reveal him... Here's what I want; make him visable on minimap when he's attacking and scale his passive movespeed with level with a lower speed at lower levels and a higher movespeed at higher levels. Edited January 21, 2014 by ginosaji Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straighter Posted January 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Vortex is a strong skill, but what would be the point of having a 0 range approach/initiation mechanic? I also disagree with changing his Ult. It's unique in how it can counter aoe casters. I disagree with removing his invisibility on minimap as well. TS wards do reveal him... Here's what I want; make him visable on minimap when he's attacking and scale his passive movespeed with level with a lower speed at lower levels and a higher movespeed at higher levels. 0 range was just an idea, it would force shadow not to use it as an iniitiation .... and his ulti well the main problem is that u have to carry scanners even lategame ... i think u want to balance him IH but ... its just that most ppl play this game in public and dont even know what jungling or warding means ... i just would like to have some skill required to play shadow and everytime i met you in pub (like 2-3 times) u played with at least 2 other clanmembers and its ofc different to play a game with 1-2 random ppl compared to 4 random ppln as a caster Edited January 21, 2014 by Straighter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anax Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Imho biggest problem is - he doesn't need to engage in teamfights at all (so saying he can be countered in team is kind of pointless). All he needs to do is farm as hell - in which he is the best hero in game, and splitpush in which he's among top 3 heroes. With the difference of having 3 escape mechanisms built in, and 1v1 potential to rape any hero. The speed at which he rapes towers means once you see him approach tower, if you're not in immediate vicinity he'll probably take it, then go back at almost grunty speed to claim prize in a possible teamfight going on.. so Yeh, he's balanced :-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxHaven Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 He is strong but he is balanced. He will show up on minimap according to highdrater which will make him even more balanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mynhauzen Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 is it me, or someone need to start cooperating all zeratul/shadow topics in the same place? :D same stuff again and again atomheartman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taznkid Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) I actually don't have any problems with Shadow...since he is a melee-based hero, he needs somewhat "op" abilities, otherwise range will chew him down. Frankly, in IH, it still does, and IMO you should use the creeps to determine a lane getting pushed since in most cases Shadow cannot solo a tower (and if he has items so that he CAN solo a tower, its at a late point in the game where losing a tier 1 tower shouldn't exactly be the worst thing in the world). I think I mentioned this before, but Shadow doesn't do too well in IH team fights, and from what I see, it generally takes people who actually play well to abuse Shadow in pubs (I eat all the noob Shadows regardless of feed...at least as long as I play something like Nova or Tychus instead of Raynor). My personal idea of counters: 1. Force team fights, as long your team is decent, he won't do shap (unless the person playing Shadow is a good player in general as well, but even then you still have a better chance then if you all split push) 2. If the above condition is not fulfilled, party up with people that you know play well; I personally do so since I get tired of teammates that feed then blame you for it. 3. Play something that can kill Shadow; so many things can kill Shadow. I personally use Tychus since his ulti lets me shrug off Shadow's attacks while I eat him (and this is with feed; in fact I seem to recall a game that I lost to a Shadow playing Tychus, but even then it was only because the Shadow had both feed to stay ahead of me along with CC that helped to kill me). Even if he runs, I get a tower for my efforts. 4. Tell developers to do something about Eternity-Explosive Retrofit combo 5. Another solution of your imagination Now why you shouldn't change abilities: Shade: How the heck is Shadow going to kill anything early-mid game? Vortex: It has a decent cooldown IMO, and either you risk having less of a escape ability if you use it for initiation, or risk failure of a kill because you saved it. Also, many abilities in AoS have multiple uses or ways to "abuse them", such as AoE attacks that can attack areas with no sight, Jakk's mines that can be used defensively with the slow, LZ ring can be used defensively, etc. Forcing Vortex to a single limited use is not a good idea IMO Stepping Strikes: Perhaps the one thing I do think needs changing. Even with the nerf, I sometimes can't click on the guy. Shadow Walk: It has been nerfed decently IMO. Changing this to a cloaking ability would make it completely useless, since probably about 10-20 minutes after getting it the other team should be able to afford true sight (and can use scanner/wards early on). Kind of the same situation like Zeratul's heroic passive (which I think needs a buff). Roach ulti is kind of like this, but it provides a damage boost and movement bonus which I think makes up for it. If I remember correctly, Shadow Walk sight limitation duration is 2 seconds, which means at max attack speed, that's around 4-5 attacks at anywhere around 200-600 weapon damage, possibly with Isomorphic Pyre and/or Contamination Shard (and whatever else floats their boat). After the effect wears off (and possibly even during it) you can counterattack, so if you died in that duration, either Shadow engaged really well, you are already behind anyway, or you built badly. I still do agree with the additional consumables slot though. Late game wards ftw. Edited January 21, 2014 by taznkid mynhauzen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mynhauzen Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I dont really find shadow to be OP, there's plenty of heroes that counter a shadow, but I dont like that shadow is so mobile, and I really hate it when good players play shadow, or in premades people pick it with mk and mule. When I see something like that I just want to leave, because I find this combo in a pub to be very OP and impossible to stop, no matter what u play, you will lose 5 towers in the next 20 minutes, and shadow will finish the rest endgame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomheartman Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 That being said that shadow is not too strong if he is in same lvl and same geared. But shadow rises too fast. and eternity/explosive combo is a bit strong. Jez this is like nova rushing barb and khali - so ez and boring to play. but you need to play same way coz anyway someone will pick nova/shadow and rape nabs in your team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustBooomBina Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 To all shadow players that tend to team rape I have 1 advice. Make sure you prepare your forehead with lotion before game. I have heard that keyboard faceroll might contaminate you with viruses, and you don't want that to happen. If that happens, you can surround your keyboard with boxes and put some hamsters to play inside. It works basically the same. The only minus is that you might not get luda, but only monster kill. GL HF Straighter, atomheartman and Figgonson 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustBooomBina Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 If I could, I would have liked my own comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaldi Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 If I could, I would have liked my own comment Noob you can... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustBooomBina Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Noob you can... You can't! Reported! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaldi Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 You can't! Reported! Make a smurf. Might get banned for it tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustBooomBina Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Make a smurf. Might get banned for it tho So you suggest me to do illegal for the site things?? Reported!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaldi Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 So you suggest me to do illegal for the site things?? Reported!!! I said you could not that you Should. I feel I have strayed off topic so I am just going to say this: If you nerf his split push too much he will never be used in inhouses. Also on the topic of carries they need to nerf nova and darpa and not by changing numbers. They have every desirable quality in a carry. They just have too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysi Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I wouldn't mind an increase in vortexes cooldown. Seems like he can initiate and escape with it all in the same fight. It's a strong skill to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxHaven Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 No I would rather have vortex radius decreased so to make it more of a so called skill shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mynhauzen Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Wake up. The game is too complex as it is for a mod with no matchmaking. A noob has to play 50 games to realize, what is a talent, how to buy stuff etc. there is no reason y one needs more skillshots. People are leaving at a greater rate than those joining. The game needs easier heroes, not more complicated. Ban those in inhouses, but keep those for noobs. They need easy carry that a-clicks. I bet, that shadow, rancor and lz brought to this community 90%. If u think that shadow is too easy n strong, dont play it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EterNity Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 In House is the only way to play an enjoyable AoS match since we do not have a matchmaking system. I felt sorry for the guys that refuse to play on Mumble due to the social involvement and the lack of time. Note that you are playing a "quick" pub game that can start in a matter of seconds upon joining a lobby but you scarified the chance of having a higher quality game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figgonson Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Wake up. The game is too complex as it is for a mod with no matchmaking. A noob has to play 50 games to realize, what is a talent, how to buy stuff etc. there is no reason y one needs more skillshots. People are leaving at a greater rate than those joining. The game needs easier heroes, not more complicated. Ban those in inhouses, but keep those for noobs. They need easy carry that a-clicks. I bet, that shadow, rancor and lz brought to this community 90%. If u think that shadow is too easy n strong, dont play it I started playing because grunty is a fun guy to be. Nothing like a cross map rocket for the kill In House is the only way to play an enjoyable AoS match since we do not have a matchmaking system. I felt sorry for the guys that refuse to play on Mumble due to the social involvement and the lack of time. Note that you are playing a "quick" pub game that can start in a matter of seconds upon joining a lobby but you scarified the chance of having a higher quality game. You can still have high quality, fun pub games... I have never played one IH but i still have fun. Been around foreva too. Edited January 22, 2014 by Figgonson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
residente Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) is it me, or someone need to start cooperating all zeratul/shadow topics in the same place? :D same stuff again and again don't you like deja vus? Edited January 22, 2014 by residente mynhauzen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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