Tooltips and Standardization of Mechanics

[EKCO]

We will be working to further simplify tooltips, and standardize certain game mechanics to improve the readability of the game. Note that the numbers described below are not final and subject to change.

 

Standardization of Slow:

Slow is generally uneffective under a certain threshold, and overly effective past a certain threshold. Where a Slow is uneffective, it might as well not exist. Where a Slow is overly effective, we might as well use a Snare. It works better to specify Slows so that they are reliably effective across the board. This improves the recognizability of the effect, and also allows us to cut down on tooltip length.

 

Standardization of Damage Amplification (Weaken):

Oftentimes when damage amplification is applied to a unit, it goes unnoticed by teammates and isn't capitalized upon. This is often due to the variation in visual effects used to convey damage amplification on a target. By standardizing the visual effect and the amount, players can reliably communicate and respond to damage amplification.

 

Standardization of DoTs (Bleed, Poison, and Burn):

Similar to Slows, DoTs below a certain threshold are meaningless, and above a certain threshold can become disproportionately devastating to low-health heroes. By giving it equal effectiveness on both low-health and high-health heroes, not only do players gain a more consistent understanding of the visual cues, but we can also create interesting interactions across heroes. For example, hero A can apply Poisons, which benefit hero B who deals bonus damage to Poisoned enemies. Or perhaps an item that reduces the effects of Poison can be purchased to counter certain heroes that rely on DoTs.

 

 

Format

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We will no longer be explicitly writing the effects of each level. It will be displayed in a more ordered format that minimizes word count.

 

Measurement

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Units will now be abbreviated to 'u', ie: 3u radius.

 

Ability Types

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Abilities will now also contain the following labels:

Projectile - A projectile will be launched from the user. Effects will trigger upon impact or contact with enemies.

Teleport - Ability involves some form of teleportation or displacement.

Buff - Ability involves buffing yourself or allies.

Disable - Ability involves disabling of enemies.

 

Input Types

==========================

Abilities will now be labeled based on the input type:

Passive - No input.

Active - Input without target.

Target Point - Ability requires a target point.

Target Unit - Ability requires a target unit.

 

Mechanics

==========================

Bleed - Unit takes True Damage per second equal to 2% of Maximum Health (non-stacking).

Poison - Unit takes Spell Damage per second equal to 3% of Maximum Health (non-stacking).

Burn - Unit takes Spell Damage per second equal to 5% of Current Health (non-stacking).

Weaken - Unit takes 30% additional Spell and Physical Damage (non-stacking).

Slow - Unit loses 50% Movement Speed and Weapon Speed (non-stacking).

 

Airborne - Unit is (essentially) removed from game.

 

Snare - Unit cannot move.

Disarm - Unit cannot attack.

Silence - Unit cannot use abilities.

Stun - Unit cannot move, attack, or use abilities.

[Yaldi]

So based on this will every hero be reworked?

 

I believe this is quite a good idea as it lowers the number of variables that can be changed in terms of balancing. Ie duration/range/radius/cooldown which are easily perceivable as opposed to the intricacies of int scaling etc.

 

Would I be right in saying that dot abilities wont scale anymore? Also I know it says non stacking but how does bleeding/poison/burn stack with each other? Do they stack linearly or with diminishing returns?

[mynhauzen]

What about Time/Timescale?

[ANARCHY]

i like it that the game will be easier to understand and will flow nicely for newer players, just make sure the game retains its complexity and variability of play styles and doesnt get dumbed down into something like hero attack in the process

[Midknight]

Would I be right in saying that dot abilities wont scale anymore?

 

If I had to guess, I'd say skills would have an initial damage that scales and just adds Poison, for example, as a rider status effect. IE: Toxi's spray will deal spell damage in its area and that damage will scale with ranks of the ability, plus it leaves a general Poison status on them which does the stated effect (spell damage proportional to max HP). Or something like Boros's Burning Blade will be changed from scaling damage over time to scaling on-hit additional damage plus general Burn status (non-scaling); or maybe even just the Burn status and that's it.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Midknight

[BestZeratul]

Standardization of DoTs (Bleed, Poison, and Burn):

Similar to Slows, DoTs below a certain threshold are meaningless, and above a certain threshold can become disproportionately devastating to low-health heroes. By giving it equal effectiveness on both low-health and high-health heroes, not only do players gain a more consistent understanding of the visual cues, but we can also create interesting interactions across heroes.

 

This seems really strange to me, and could be said to any source of damage, I don't see why you make that decision about dots and not about auto attacks. Of course 500 damage is devastating for a 600 health hero and a lategame micro doesn't care this much. And giving it equal effectiveness regardless of you health is something I dislike very much as it offers very little counterplay, and I can foresee balance problems with scaling too.

[Midknight]

I'm willing to see how it pans out before jumping to any conclusions. If it doesn't work out, a good compromise might be to have DoTs do a combination of static damage and %HP damage, say the target takes 2 damage/lvl + 2%HP for example. So a lvl 18, 2k HP hero would take 36 + 40 damage while a lvl 18, 4k HP hero would take 36 + 80 damage. In the former, you deal an effective 4.7% of their HP/tick and in the latter, 3.4%. So higher HP does deduce the total ratio of HP lost from the DoT, but not in a linear fashion. The actual numbers used can be adjusted for scale but that makes it so that, against a low HP target, the static damage is a bigger chunk of the damage while against a high HP target, the %HP damage is much more significant.

[Hogwarts]

So I assume fungle would be a snare now, not a "root"

 

And you will change nova ult to be a Snare also. Not that buggy web thing that pulls you and stop glitches your hero.

[zeeeend]

I have a lot of concerns about this.

 

Does this mean hammer deals a whopping 50% slow ? or even foe ?

This will be a 20% increase for foe and 30% for hammer. What kind of shapty thing is this ?

Are you going to remove the slow of hammer just so you can have 50% on foe ?

 

What about darpa's heroic ? or a bio civ attack ? Will they be buffed from below 10% to 50% slow as well ?

And what about tychus he's getting a 20% nerf on his grenade which has been buffed up from 50%.

 

Like yaldi said you would have to rework alot of heroes, based on scaling dot/slow/dmg amp you have to rework:

Drake, Micro, Kerrigan, Cain, Starscream, Marine King, Boros, Zeratul, Darpa, Shadow, Tosh, Toxi, Tassadar,Penthos, Rory, Raynor, Garamond, Jackson, Maar Greelus

 

AAAAAAnd you forgot about weapondmg reduction as mechanic will you remove it or is this just a oversight ? Otherwise include vergil and erecool

[Indo]

I just hope toxis ulti doesn't apply poison D: would make it pretty lethal I guess ( also the duration of his q D: ) and unless ancient rune isn't going to apply poison instead of what it currently does, It will hurt pretty much

[Jaysi]

I have a lot of concerns about this.

 

Does this mean hammer deals a whopping 50% slow ? or even foe ?

This will be a 20% increase for foe and 30% for hammer. What kind of shapty thing is this ?

Are you going to remove the slow of hammer just so you can have 50% on foe ?

 

What about darpa's heroic ? or a bio civ attack ? Will they be buffed from below 10% to 50% slow as well ?

And what about tychus he's getting a 20% nerf on his grenade which has been buffed up from 50%.

 

Like yaldi said you would have to rework alot of heroes, based on scaling dot/slow/dmg amp you have to rework:

Drake, Micro, Kerrigan, Cain, Starscream, Marine King, Boros, Zeratul, Darpa, Shadow, Tosh, Toxi, Tassadar,Penthos, Rory, Raynor, Garamond, Jackson, Maar Greelus

 

AAAAAAnd you forgot about weapondmg reduction as mechanic will you remove it or is this just a oversight ? Otherwise include vergil and erecool

 

I was thinking the same thing.

 

I like the idea of standardizing effects to make it simpler to learn and remember. However, I feel like balancing the heroes for these will really dumb the game down unless you have like level 1, 2, 3 etc poison and stuff.

 

I also agree with chob about the percent scaling being strange and doesn't necessarily standardize A A damage at all...

[Midknight]

Like he said, if the slow is too low, it might as well not be there. So some things may lose their slow in favor of consolidating Slow effects on fewer items and abilities. It doesn't automatically mean that everything with a slow of less than 50% will be bumped up to 50% and everything over 50% will be made into a snare. That's just jumping to conclusions.

[EKCO]

The reason DoTs are being standardized is because they are duration effects, as opposed to instantaneous damage. The elements being worked on here are related to debuffs, and not damage as a whole.

 

As mentioned by Jaysi, we can introduce tiers such as Lesser Slow (25), Slow (50), and Greater Slow (75) (non-stacking).

 

As an example of the difference between standardized and non-standardized.

Your attacks apply Lesser Slow for 2s.

Your attacks reduce enemy Movement and Weapon Speed by 25% for 2 seconds.

 

Furthermore, this won't be an immediate change, it's something we're looking to maintain as we move forward. We will eventually change some effects in the future to adapt to these standards. As an example, Biotron may lose some of the less-noticable slow effects in favor of more damage. We will also probably do away with deteriorating slows, since they provide little advantage over a more recognizable amount. For example, the visual cue for a 5% slow is the same as the visual cue for a 60% slow. We could still do a deteriorating slow effect by transitioning from a Greater Slow to a Lesser Slow.

 

Remember that the objective is to improve readability, not to nerf or otherwise fundamentally change the way a character works. When we make these changes, we won't be bumping and removing effects with a macro.

[zeeeend]

If you add tiers it could work... The balancing needs to be done carefully as not all thing will be transfered easily into tiers.

 

I couldn´t care less about removing deteriorating slows and i dont think anyone will it was just another mechanic for the sake of having one more.

 

I think its kinda hard to read visual cue´s if toxi alone ( assuming r = bleed, q/e = poison and foe is slow) applies 3 of them, even now pubstars are totally unaware of the red swordbraker debuff when they turn their kitty red from e

 

ps* Tiers could make space for a item that lowers tiers (3=2 2=1 1=1/0) or caps tiers (max = 2). It would be some kind of parallax but more reliable.

[BestZeratul]

The reason DoTs are being standardized is because they are duration effects, as opposed to instantaneous damage. The elements being worked on here are related to debuffs, and not damage as a whole.

 

So let me rephrase, the reason is that dots are dots. Ok, nevermind it all makes sense now.

 

I don't like the idea but maybe it will turn out to be good, however you justification/thought process is pretty much "because I want it to be this way", and if that is the case that's perfectly fine, just say that you have created a good game, no need to make long verbious posts without much substance.

 

Another concern I have is that slow and snare are not the same thing, I know there is no 100% slow in aos atm but it wouldn't interrupt channels whereas a snare typically interrupts channels in dota, so how do you standardize that ? Does a snare interrupt channels ? What if you want to create a skill that holds people in place but doesnt interrupt channels ?

 

The visuals part is very important and I agree it would make the game much better.

Edited January 11, 2014 by chob

[Midknight]

@Chob: I think you're confusing Snare with Stun. A Stun stops all action while a Snare just stops movement. Snare is 100% move reduction. Thus, the reasoning, if you have an item/ability that cuts move speed by 80-99%, why not just make it a flat-out Snare? It still wouldn't interfere with channeling or AA but it serves to cut out the need of specifying overly specific slow ratios; this skill slows by 40% while that skill slows by 45%. Just make it 'Slow' and, for the neophyte, they just know intuitively "Oh, it makes them slower" and need no further information while the more advanced player has looked at the more detailed mechanics breakdowns and knows it's a 50% slow in every case where the Slow status is applied.

 

Regarding the DoTs, again, it's mainly for word economy and secondarily because of the insignificance/oversignificance of damage. Make it strong enough to be pertinent in early game and that scaling makes it OP by end-game. Scale it down to be pertinent in end-game, and it ends up being insignificant in early game. But by making it governed by the HP (and, as I suggested, level) of the target, it becomes relatively viable at all stages of the game. But you can't really do that with AA without significant changes to the game. At that point, it would be a matter of all attacks dealing a certain amount of damage plus %HP (including AA) and I don't honestly think it's a good direction for a game like this. I've seen different types of games where systems like that worked, but a MOBA just isn't one of them. There's a big difference between making a DoT scale with the target's HP and making auto-attacks or other direct-damage attacks scale with target's HP.

[BestZeratul]

Regarding dots : I don't see how dots are different than other types of damage in that regard. You can keep repeating that dots and burst damage are different but it's just a scaling problem, that doesn't have anything to do with the way the damage is applied.

 

Regarding snare : the thing is you remove the possibility of having a skill that interrupts a channel and isn't a stun, there are plenty of those in dota, and they are different from a 100% slow which exists as well in dota. As much as clarifying the game is a good thing because complicated mechanics are only worth having if they bring fun and/or new strategies, I don't see any point in limiting your options for the future. If a 10% slow is useless what's a 6% bonus movespeed worth ? Are we removing it too ? Having a general icon/visual for slows is good, I don't really now why you would remove the option of having very strong/weak slows. If a slow seems to strong or too weak, just buff it or nerf it and voila.

Edited January 11, 2014 by chob

[Midknight]

10% slow over a few seconds in a fight is pretty useless because you factor the intensity of the penalty with the duration. But 6% movespeed bonus always gets a high enough duration factor to make it a significant benefit. Consider this: a skill applies 10% slow for 4 seconds. That may or may not slow a fleeing target down so that you can catch up and finish them off. But I've seen countless instances where, even when affected by small slow effects like that, the target was still able to escape. If it had been a more significant slowing effect, then the target would have been slowed down enough that the chaser can catch up and finish them off. But a 6% increase in move speed means it takes you about 5.5% less time to respond to a gank. In tactical situations like fleeing from a fight, it's a scale of milliseconds that counts and a 10% slow for a couple of seconds shaves off very few milliseconds; but in strategic situations like responding to a gank or teamfight, you're working on the decisecond scale so even just a 6% increase over all those deciseconds is far more significant. Orders of Magnitude.

[BestZeratul]

Well you are comparing a 6% permanent speed buff to 4 seconds duration buff, of course those don't have the same value. I think your views are somewhat skewed because (this is an assumption so pardon me if I'm mistaken) you have played less MOBAs than me. There's a lot of different abilities you can imagine. For example in dota axe or bloodseeker can get a small MS buff (I actually think it's 6% for axe) under certain conditions, and those 6% are stackable, and have a rather short duration. Axe is more or less justicar, so if he can get +18% MS by applying this 3 times and get a taunt off it makes a huge difference in a fight, and it's overall a well rounded kit for the hero. If you remove slows that are below 25% you remove the option of creating this kind of skills for every possible future hero. I don't see why you would remove that option for literally nothing in return.

 

As for responding to ganks, in MOST mobas and MOST situations if you are not in position to respond to a gank your movespeed won't matter anyway, most ganking combos/heroes are bursty if your time unit reference is crossing half the map and chances are a 2 on 1 fight will be over regardless of your 6% bonus movespeed. And proper positionning from both the person that get ganked (not overextending) and from his team/supports (being ready to the possibility of a gank due to heroes missing and being ready to counter initiate) is the true factor.

 

What bothers me is that if EKCO does everything on that list it's a huge amount of work that leads to a lot of heroes being reworked and creative options being removed for pretty much nothing in return.

[Jaysi]

Well you are comparing a 6% permanent speed buff to 4 seconds duration buff, of course those don't have the same value. I think your views are somewhat skewed because (this is an assumption so pardon me if I'm mistaken) you have played less MOBAs than me. There's a lot of different abilities you can imagine. For example in dota axe or bloodseeker can get a small MS buff (I actually think it's 6% for axe) under certain conditions, and those 6% are stackable, and have a rather short duration. Axe is more or less justicar, so if he can get +18% MS by applying this 3 times and get a taunt off it makes a huge difference in a fight, and it's overall a well rounded kit for the hero. If you remove slows that are below 25% you remove the option of creating this kind of skills for every possible future hero. I don't see why you would remove that option for literally nothing in return.

 

As for responding to ganks, in MOST mobas and MOST situations if you are not in position to respond to a gank your movespeed won't matter anyway, most ganking combos/heroes are bursty if your time unit reference is crossing half the map and chances are a 2 on 1 fight will be over regardless of your 6% bonus movespeed. And proper positionning from both the person that get ganked (not overextending) and from his team/supports (being ready to the possibility of a gank due to heroes missing and being ready to counter initiate) is the true factor.

 

What bothers me is that if EKCO does everything on that list it's a huge amount of work that leads to a lot of heroes being reworked and creative options being removed for pretty much nothing in return.

 

I agree completely. This would just take a lot of work and rebalancing for essentially a "high polish" of the game that also limits the creativeness and combinations you can create. There are a ton of other things the community would prefer for you to work on instead, Quidditch had a pretty long list similar to what Whale use to have. I know at the end of the day, it is your game, you work on what you want and prefer because it is a hobby for you.

[thomulf]

If I had to guess, I'd say skills would have an initial damage that scales and just adds Poison, for example, as a rider status effect. IE: Toxi's spray will deal spell damage in its area and that damage will scale with ranks of the ability, plus it leaves a general Poison status on them which does the stated effect (spell damage proportional to max HP). Or something like Boros's Burning Blade will be changed from scaling damage over time to scaling on-hit additional damage plus general Burn status (non-scaling); or maybe even just the Burn status and that's it.

 

Seems to me poison would only be tied to Ancient Rune, as burn to pyre; a Q applying that item-conventional percent-based damage would be somewhat radical.

Removal of DoTs from abilities will doubtless allow for more decisive buffs to ancient rune (max-health based should be interesting).

Hopefully this might end up being nice for egon as well? Fingers crossed

Edited January 31, 2014 by thomulf

[Midknight]

Superheated mantle would probably apply burn in the AoE. And, if I'm understanding it correctly, it's not just item-based DoTs but all DoTs that are being standardized. So we might very well have a few basic abilities dealing percent-based damage.

[thomulf]

Why would mantle deal 5% health in a 5-unit radius? You'd have to greatly increase its cost.

 

As for other abilities dealing percent based damage it might be interesting to have some heroes with more dedicated anti tank aspects, but it sounds like it would require some serious rebalancing of those heroes.

Edited February 3, 2014 by thomulf

[Hogwarts]

I think right now Burn is only dealing 1.5% max hp. The numbers are a work in progress. The numbers in the OP were a place holder. Not the final result.

[Adamantium]

I think right now Burn is only dealing 1.5% max hp. The numbers are a work in progress. The numbers in the OP were a place holder. Not the final result.

This

 

And these effects haven't been worked into items and other heroes yet. These will be worked in and balanced over the next couple months.