I know no one cares about pubs but...

[MOTHER]

Fix Shadowmourne on Gara.

 

You can ban that shap ih but in pubs it's obscenely anti-fun and now the cats outta of the bag and everyone and their mother knows about Shadowmourne's abusive potential on Gara. This isn't like Impact Dial Micro, Garamond with SM can melt through towers and heroes in pubs, it's laughable how this is still allowed. Seen so many players (K/D whores really) rush this item and I can't blame them, it works, it gets them the win but at the expense of everyone else's gaming experience.

 

Simple solution - it should either A) not proc on every "hit" when it comes to Gara, i.e. much longer internal cooldown but only for gara or b) Not proc at all. Please.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Jessika

[Moo]

Sometimes when I see the enemy team is premade and I don't have confidence in my team, I play shadowmourne gara, but other than situations like that where the teams are stacked I ban it from myself to be fair to the poor pubs that don't realize how insanely broken it is. I don't even build int since I suck at gara, I just build aa and go solo all of their towers. With just Shadowmourne and CoA (I have lost treasure too, but I don't think it would make a difference if you had it or not), you can solo towers without minions with proper micro. It just gets easier with galactic, and once you get the lockbox after that you can lockbox the enemy, activate ulti, finish the tower, and kill the enemy with ulti, since they probably won't run since they think they can take you most of the time. Shadowmourne gara should just be removed from the game, it is literally the most broken thing I have ever seen in a MOBA, worse than old unclickable shadow, which was pretty dumb IMO.

[MOTHER]

This is definitely worse than unclickable shadow which was really bad.

[Hogwarts]

Its a feature? Dont ya know?

 

Garamonds aa / scv are buggy as crap and have been for a long time, Eco has tossed around the idea of changing the hero all together lots of times. But new projects always seem to take precedence.

 

I.E the new HOTS patch.

 

 

A lot of bugs get passed up because there a lot of work to fix. because he simply isn't interested on working on that specific hero or issue, or he doesn't know why the bug is there nor how to fix it.

 

There is a long list of features that fall into this category. I could name them but that would be tedious

[TaxHaven]

I like shadowmourne gara. Its fun

[MOTHER]

Its a feature? Dont ya know?

 

Garamonds aa / scv are buggy as crap and have been for a long time, Eco has tossed around the idea of changing the hero all together lots of times. But new projects always seem to take precedence.

 

I.E the new HOTS patch.

 

 

A lot of bugs get passed up because there a lot of work to fix. because he simply isn't interested on working on that specific hero or issue, or he doesn't know why the bug is there nor how to fix it.

 

There is a long list of features that fall into this category. I could name them but that would be tedious

 

Sure. But this feature is broken tier and is sucking the fun out of the pub experience. As more and more players catch on, and they will, games will continue to be ruined. Every time I see an opponent Gara go SM, I have a sudden urge to leave not because it's an uphill battle but because it simply isn't fair.

 

I do hope that of all the "features" floating around AoS, this one in particular receives attention. The very least that could happen is that SM doesn't proc on Gara's AA at all until a more permanent and practical solution is found.

[MrGrim]

It should be like it is in dota, certain items on certain heroes should not be able to buy the item until the hero is reworked/balanced. Like pudge/blink, visage/blink, gara should not be able to buy shadowmourne in the item menu, same with micro/dial and whatever else the ih guys think is too imba

[Indo]

'explosive retrofit!' 'tbone!' ' jumps!' Just becaus some pubbers can't deal with it, maybe even 70-80%.. there will be atleast 1 guy in thei team who is able to help is team.... but he won't so let get this straight

 

The thing that it wrecks towers and pretty much pushes hardcore? guys seriously get yourself some aoe ( for newplayers: kill the turrets, they are the ones amping dmg)

 

If you lane vs him... ok that depends on the gara but it might be that if you have no spell to throw at him( maar aura, jakk minefield, immortal q/ a permanent) or aoe like jakks passiv... you shouldn't even try it since he will outfarm you. So you may ask a fitting teammate to do so

 

Once he got showmournee things are getting cheesy but if a ranged carry managed to get explosive ( darpa nova toxi etc) the problem is solved since they are pretty much 1hit. just don't dive into scvs becaus when you kill them on auto destruction mode they will actually hurt pretty badly

 

I tried to explain it so everypubber will understand how basicaly simple it is to counter gara... Without many scvs out, he is weak since his weapondmg is only 35% of what it would be and he has a pretty slow attackrate through the whole game

[Doom]

Considering that you can taser garamond and make him unable to attack or cast spells (aka basically just run around like a dumbass and pretend he's doing something useful) for less than half the price of shadowmourne and the fact that he doesn't benefit from weapon speed items.........

[DavidChan]

throughout the whole year i only seen maybe 1 person played gara with shadowmourne tho... really a issue? I think gara's skill E is the issue. lol

 

just feed on his teammates and kill them all. OR just get fed by that gara.

 

I think you're having problem against his teammates, not the gara himself.

[BestZeratul]

It should be like it is in dota, certain items on certain heroes should not be able to buy the item until the hero is reworked/balanced. Like pudge/blink, visage/blink, gara should not be able to buy shadowmourne in the item menu, same with micro/dial and whatever else the ih guys think is too imba

 

Pudge and visage can buy blink. The only situation where you cannot buy an item in dota is basher when your hero has a bash ability.

[Skydie]

throughout the whole year i only seen maybe 1 person played gara with shadowmourne tho... really a issue? I think gara's skill E is the issue. lol

 

just feed on his teammates and kill them all. OR just get fed by that gara.

 

I think you're having problem against his teammates, not the gara himself.

 

+1.

 

Only noobs be liking the OP's post.

 

Be pro. Be asian. Be Chan.

[MOTHER]

As expected, posts about taser, lockbox etc. By the time you get to Shadow Gara to taser them he would've already taken out any tower he pleases, and consider that Shadow Gara too has allies that can defend him in the few seconds he is silenced or lockboxed. Responding with Taser as the go-to solution for everything (literally) not only is silly but it demands too much from the pub scene (which is what this thread is about). The fact remains that Shadow Gara is broken and is need of a fix, otherwise he wouldn't be auto banned ih as well. You can't have autobans in pub games but what you can have are patches and fixes.

 

@Doom

 

He benefits from timescale, Yamato's active is devastating actually with SM.

 

@Skydie

 

That's very helpful thank you.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Jessika

[Indo]

 

@Doom

 

He benefits from timescale, Yamato's active is devastating actually with SM.

 

 

and thats the one and only thing he benefits from, shadowmournee does not even benefit from it but has only his passiv ulti buff as boost

[MrGrim]

Pudge and visage can buy blink. The only situation where you cannot buy an item in dota is basher when your hero has a bash ability.

Yea but they couldn't for a long time until the most recent patch when they felt it was balanced. You couldn't buy blink on either of them until 6.79 and it should be the same with gara mourne. Ban the item and allow it once the balance is fixed.

[Moo]

@Doom and Indo: Are you saying you don't think shadowmourne garamond is OP? If you are, I would like to ask you to go play against someone who is good at garamond (I'm pretty sure Roonaldo is quite good at him) and let them build shadowmourne. I would love to spectate the game.

 

But seriously though, if you think shadowmourne gara isn't broke as all hell, you haven't played against one who even knows remotely what to do.

 

Edit:

Considering that you can taser garamond and make him unable to attack or cast spells (aka basically just run around like a dumbass and pretend he's doing something useful) for less than half the price of shadowmourne and the fact that he doesn't benefit from weapon speed items.........

 

Shadowmourne still procs on his attempted aa's, so he can finish off your tower and build up scvs for ulti once taser is done. Edited January 6, 2014 by Moo

[BestZeratul]

Yea but they couldn't for a long time until the most recent patch when they felt it was balanced. You couldn't buy blink on either of them until 6.79 and it should be the same with gara mourne. Ban the item and allow it once the balance is fixed.

 

It wasn't visage it was venge. And this was not a balance patch it was a choice to prevent griefing when force staff wasn't in the game and when swap and hook didn't give unobstructed movement for a few seconds (because that was not possible in the wc3 editor).

[DavidChan]

I don't see shadowmourne gara op, but it is definitely a good item on him. How does shadowmourne benefit during 1v1, 1v2 situation? Only way I see is OP is when he is left alone taking ur towers. Then simply make his E not able to attack tower, and buff its hp for against heroes.

 

Maar teleport teammates behind him when he backdoor.

Shadow run in Q, stun knife, spend 1.8k? on taser compare to 5.1k? shadowmourne yea.

Zera.. dont need to explain.

Boros... dont need to explain.

List goes on.. all with 1 cheap taser.

 

In short story, it is his E that is op on tower. Try kill my tower without ur E before you get ganked.

[MrGrim]

It wasn't visage it was venge. And this was not a balance patch it was a choice to prevent griefing when force staff wasn't in the game and when swap and hook didn't give unobstructed movement for a few seconds (because that was not possible in the wc3 editor).

That's what I get for leaving a comment when half asleep. Hmm, I think you might be right. I thought it was for balance in dota2 specifically but I haven't followed dota for that long so I'll agree with you.

[Moo]

I don't see shadowmourne gara op, but it is definitely a good item on him. How does shadowmourne benefit during 1v1, 1v2 situation? Only way I see is OP is when he is left alone taking ur towers. Then simply make his E not able to attack tower, and buff its hp for against heroes.

 

Maar teleport teammates behind him when he backdoor.

Shadow run in Q, stun knife, spend 1.8k? on taser compare to 5.1k? shadowmourne yea.

Zera.. dont need to explain.

Boros... dont need to explain.

List goes on.. all with 1 cheap taser.

 

In short story, it is his E that is op on tower. Try kill my tower without ur E before you get ganked.

Shadowmourne garamond is literally faster at killing towers than any other hero, with or without turrets. He can easily kill any hero in the game except the tankiest of tanks with ulti since the shadowmourne produces usable scvs that deal full ulti damage. He is counter able (just like every single other hero ever, no matter how OP), but he does way more than any other hero IMO. Why do you think he is auto banned? Have you ever played as shadowmourne gara? Have you ever played against it? It is seriously so insanely broken. With a creep wave you take towers in about 2-3 seconds. Without one, you take it in about 5-10, depending on your items (time becomes very low once you get GD). You can kill the obelisk so fast that just a second or two of attacking and the obelisk tower moves down, and then it is even simpler for gara to kill it. It is very difficult to stop him also, since he will normally get the tower even after you kill him because if the scvs and shadowmourne clone. I don't know how you can think shadowmourne gara isn't OP if you have seen what he can do, but I wholeheartedly disagree with that.

[DavidChan]

name='Moo' timestamp='1388975819' post='87699']

Shadowmourne garamond is literally faster at killing towers than any other hero, with or without turrets. He can easily kill any hero in the game except the tankiest of tanks with ulti since the shadowmourne produces usable scvs that deal full ulti damage. He is counter able (just like every single other hero ever, no matter how OP), but he does way more than any other hero IMO. Why do you think he is auto banned? Have you ever played as shadowmourne gara? Have you ever played against it? It is seriously so insanely broken. With a creep wave you take towers in about 2-3 seconds. Without one, you take it in about 5-10, depending on your items (time becomes very low once you get GD). You can kill the obelisk so fast that just a second or two of attacking and the obelisk tower moves down, and then it is even simpler for gara to kill it. It is very difficult to stop him also, since he will normally get the tower even after you kill him because if the scvs and shadowmourne clone. I don't know how you can think shadowmourne gara isn't OP if you have seen what he can do, but I wholeheartedly disagree with that.

[/b]

 

I don't think it is banned in NA ih. You obviously haven't seen shadow with shadowmourne on tower, nova with shadowmourne on tower, grunty with shadowmourne on tower, or almost any AA with shadowmourne on towers. Go test it in a game yourself. I can tell you that Shadow with SM+pyre will kill towers faster than Gara with SM+Grav Edge. (assuming gara doesn't use his E at all). Plus, gara need to buy lockbox before these items as well. So how does gara get the money in the first place? By relying on his E in the first place to kill towers.

 

I knew shadowmourne gara since the first day shadowmourne was made. I played it couple times and I can assure you I'm better in Garamond than you or roonaldo that you mentioned. I also played against gara shadowmourne many time, but only once or twice this past year. I always win unless teams are imbalanced. 1v1 wise against gara, I will win. Team fight wise then it really depends on your team. Shadowmourne is a very expensive items, how do you get this item in the first place? By split pushing or tower pushing. So in other words, you have to rely on your skill E first to get some towers before you buy shadowmourne. OR you rely on your teammates to get some assist or kills(then in this case, it is team that is unbalanced)

 

The only time when hero is OP is when he is able to stomp any heroes in 1v1 situation, 1v2 situation, or even 1v3. So many heroes already can 1v1 him with the right items. Again, you haven't answer me how Shadowmourne can benefit gara in 1v1 situation. A shadow running toward you, your first reaction is lockbox right? Then how does shadowmourne help at this point? So to summarize everything, shadowmourne gara is "only" op against towers. However, without E shadowmourne gara isn't really that fast compared to shadow with shadowmourne pyre. And finally, to my main point, it is his E on tower that is the real problem here. No?

[TaxHaven]

Lol Moo got educated

[Doom]

@Doom and Indo: Are you saying you don't think shadowmourne garamond is OP? If you are, I would like to ask you to go play against someone who is good at garamond (I'm pretty sure Roonaldo is quite good at him) and let them build shadowmourne. I would love to spectate the game.

 

But seriously though, if you think shadowmourne gara isn't broke as all hell, you haven't played against one who even knows remotely what to do.

 

Edit: Shadowmourne still procs on his attempted aa's, so he can finish off your tower and build up scvs for ulti once taser is done.

 

Certain items are good on certain heroes. Some to the point of huge frustration, especially when the player is good. Impact Dial on roach, warp shard on micro, lockbox on rory (I go without it because I can land molotov with just q, and pride reasons, but it is an extra root while you are casting stevie, in a q-e-lb-r combo) jakk, mule, boros and several others, explosive retrofit on zera, yamato on leo, eternity on toxi, atom smasher on pentos and bio (especially with taser and coa), flare gun rush on rancor, lethal barb on nova, dst on any tank, huge number of others. You choose to focus on this particular synergy, but there are hundreds of others. Heck, I've lost track of the amount of times that a was going to lose a fight in lane as Raynor, Rancor, Darpa or Nova, but then I'd use my reveal ability, throw down a smoke screen, and shoot them from the safety of my invisibility cloud, changing the outcome of the fight with a 65 mineral consumable. Why do you focus on THIS one? Garamond, even with SM, cannot compete in wave clearing with most aa heroes that have explosive retro. Any ranged hero with that item can take minimal damage from ult (unless they get lockboxed and combo'd though shadowmourne would play little role in that, unless you have other targets to attack and build up an scv army while the enemy is chilling in limbo) and though better than some, is still by far not the best tower-pusher, even when there are no enemy heroes to destroy turrents and scvs with a single aoe burst. Yes, the item is good on him. So? It's certainly not game-breaking as you seem to think.

 

Oh and in reply to your "try beating good player" statement. Your thread is about pubs. Maybe you and I play different pubs, or have different opinions on the skills of pub players, but I've yet to meet any garamond that gave me trouble, SM or no. I dunno any Roonaldo, perhaps he might even be good.... however even if your garamond prodigy had skills enough to take me, I could just take a hero from my self-banned list and win anyway.

[Moo]

 

 

I don't think it is banned in NA ih. You obviously haven't seen shadow with shadowmourne on tower, nova with shadowmourne on tower, grunty with shadowmourne on tower, or almost any AA with shadowmourne on towers. Go test it in a game yourself. I can tell you that Shadow with SM+pyre will kill towers faster than Gara with SM+Grav Edge. (assuming gara doesn't use his E at all). Plus, gara need to buy lockbox before these items as well. So how does gara get the money in the first place? By relying on his E in the first place to kill towers.

 

I knew shadowmourne gara since the first day shadowmourne was made. I played it couple times and I can assure you I'm better in Garamond than you or roonaldo that you mentioned. I also played against gara shadowmourne many time, but only once or twice this past year. I always win unless teams are imbalanced. 1v1 wise against gara, I will win. Team fight wise then it really depends on your team. Shadowmourne is a very expensive items, how do you get this item in the first place? By split pushing or tower pushing. So in other words, you have to rely on your skill E first to get some towers before you buy shadowmourne. OR you rely on your teammates to get some assist or kills(then in this case, it is team that is unbalanced)

 

The only time when hero is OP is when he is able to stomp any heroes in 1v1 situation, 1v2 situation, or even 1v3. So many heroes already can 1v1 him with the right items. Again, you haven't answer me how Shadowmourne can benefit gara in 1v1 situation. A shadow running toward you, your first reaction is lockbox right? Then how does shadowmourne help at this point? So to summarize everything, shadowmourne gara is "only" op against towers. However, without E shadowmourne gara isn't really that fast compared to shadow with shadowmourne pyre. And finally, to my main point, it is his E on tower that is the real problem here. No?

His E is very strong at pushing towers, I never disagreed. What I disagree on with you is that shadowmourne gara is not broken. Shadowmourne pushes gara's pushing power WAY over the top, and garamond is not autobanned, just him+shadowmourne (shadowmourne+gara has been autobanned in every NA inhouse I have participated in, so I dunno why you think he isn't, I've played a couple with you and he was autobanned). I also now disagree with you on what causes a hero to be OP. I don't think that how well a hero does in 1v1, 1v2, or 1v3 is the only way to determine whether a hero is OP. if that were true, why is queen a very strong pick? She is not good in 1v1, yet she is a top tier hero and was (maybe still is, I'm not sure) considered OP. I have played shadow quite a bit recently in pubs, and I include shadowmourne in my build, most of the time after timesplitter, shinobi, and one situational item. He doesn't kill towers as fast with those items as garamond with just shadowmourne, galactic defender, and CoA in my experience, and shadow requires minions to push the tower also, so I disagree with your assertion that shadow and other aa's kill towers faster than shadowmourne gara. Also, nowhere did I say that it was just shadowmourne that killed the towers, and I do agree that garamond's E is part of the problem, but I think that it is shadowmourne and his E together that create the problem posed by shadowmourne gara, and most of the problem is shadowmourne, especially since shadowmourne produces so many scvs that all proc ulti, about tripling the amount of scvs for ulti (since the shadow always throws two scvs, and gara only throws one after first throw), which does allow him to 1v1 heroes more effectively, since your ulti will deal a lot more damage.

 

To sum it up, I think shadowmourne is the main problem since it increases the number of scvs for ulti and hugely increases the speed at which he takes towers. His E is part if the problem, but I think shadowmourne is the bigger part.

 

 

 

Certain items are good on certain heroes. Some to the point of huge frustration, especially when the player is good. Impact Dial on roach, warp shard on micro, lockbox on rory (I go without it because I can land molotov with just q, and pride reasons, but it is an extra root while you are casting stevie, in a q-e-lb-r combo) jakk, mule, boros and several others, explosive retrofit on zera, yamato on leo, eternity on toxi, atom smasher on pentos and bio (especially with taser and coa), flare gun rush on rancor, lethal barb on nova, dst on any tank, huge number of others. You choose to focus on this particular synergy, but there are hundreds of others. Heck, I've lost track of the amount of times that a was going to lose a fight in lane as Raynor, Rancor, Darpa or Nova, but then I'd use my reveal ability, throw down a smoke screen, and shoot them from the safety of my invisibility cloud, changing the outcome of the fight with a 65 mineral consumable. Why do you focus on THIS one? Garamond, even with SM, cannot compete in wave clearing with most aa heroes that have explosive retro. Any ranged hero with that item can take minimal damage from ult (unless they get lockboxed and combo'd though shadowmourne would play little role in that, unless you have other targets to attack and build up an scv army while the enemy is chilling in limbo) and though better than some, is still by far not the best tower-pusher, even when there are no enemy heroes to destroy turrents and scvs with a single aoe burst. Yes, the item is good on him. So? It's certainly not game-breaking as you seem to think.

 

Oh and in reply to your "try beating good player" statement. Your thread is about pubs. Maybe you and I play different pubs, or have different opinions on the skills of pub players, but I've yet to meet any garamond that gave me trouble, SM or no. I dunno any Roonaldo, perhaps he might even be good.... however even if your garamond prodigy had skills enough to take me, I could just take a hero from my self-banned list and win anyway.

Yes, those items are powerful on those heroes, however I don't feel they are as powerful as shadowmourne on gara (with the exception of a few like impact dial micro). I disagree that he is not the best tower pusher, he can do it the fastest of any hero I have seen.

 

I was just using Roonaldo as an example of someone I have seen that can play gara well, I wasn't actually saying he would face you, since I cannot speak for him. My point was that you should face a player good with gara who is using shadowmourne.

 

Btw, this isn't my thread, it is Jessika's.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Moo

[ANARCHY]

before there was shadowmourne gara there was masamune gara, i dont see the difference