health talent

[Indo]

I think we should remove this talent or nerf it since you basicaly get it everygame.

 

You are having a hard time against anything without it... can't we just add some health to all heroes in general and remove this one? we could add something like timescale or starting with +1 healthpot or so instead

[EterNity]

We all know that but our developers want them there and nothing you can do about it.

[Rim]

Yes I've always thought it odd that this talent exists. Health talent is ALWAYS chosen, if health is always chosen due to it's value I think agree that it either needs to be moved, removed, or reworked.

 

Could maybe suggest a talent that increases ability aoe radius by +1 as a talent ;)

[Adversary]

Lets remove abilities from the game. They are always chosen. Lets also remove items. It also seems like they are always chosen as well.

 

BS aside lets get something straight here: It isn't always chosen. I hardly ever choose it. Yes it is useful in early game, but that's about it. Lets take into consideration AA heroes, that are the most played (Shadow ,Nova, Zeratul, Darpa). Mid game I find they are doing more than 180 damage a hit, so it really isn't useful.. Getting the armor, the talent that gives you movement speed under a certain % of health left, health regen, cooldown reduction (especially useful if you have an escape ability or walls), the rest are up to you. I find that the movement speed talent (in defensive talent tree) is great since it gives you a greater chance of getting away, and avoiding a lot more damage than you would have taken if you didn't have it. So let's stop BS'ing ourselves with this talent is "too OP" or "always chosen", because it isn't.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Adversary

[Doom]

But Adversary, if you want to get your precious zeal, it doesn't stop you from getting hp. Indeed, in order to get zeal, you must choose at least 2 of: 180 hp, 7% spell resist, 6 armor, ~2.3 (I forgot exact number) hp regen. Armor is great, ok. But 7% spell resist.... you'd need to take 2570 damage (that is not reduced by your other spell resists) in order for that talent to be better than 180 hp. Hp regen is ok in lane, but in a team fight, you'll either be dead or safe within a few seconds, so the effective hp you get from regen will be very small, less than the max hp you'd have had. So, we have essentially proven that the talent is better than at least 2 of the t1 defense abilities, so you WILL get it every time, if you want zeal.

 

Personally, I have that talent in every build, ranging from 4-1-1 (leo almost exclusively), to 0-4-2 (hard tanks like Drake) to 2-1-3 (select casters). Besides, what makes a talent OP or otherwise is not if it's good, but how it fares vs other t1 talents. Other than additional armor, or additional mana on very few very many-hungry heroes, hp talent has not even got any close competitors in that department.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Doom

[Indo]

So let's stop BS'ing ourselves with this talent is "too OP" or "always chosen", because it isn't.

 

Ok compare it to the dmg talent, it would need 10 hits to make this "equalize" the useness of the talents, try to farm neutrals with only weapondmg/armor/hp regen/spellresist/weaponspeed talent or only hp talent... some heros have a base health of what? 450? , 180 hp is like 1/3 of this and midgame you have what? 2000hp? this talent still gives you like 10% more. ( spelldmg talent 5% and that is uslss)

[DavidChan]

You cant really balance talents. No matter how you change it, there will always be one "best" talents that everyone will choose.

[TaxHaven]

Delete the talent system?

[ginosaji]

I can't think of a single build I use that doesn't involve HP talent. Destroyer has told me he's used a veteran build for Bio long lane that doesn't use HP talent, but I haven't seen it personally.

[Adamantium]

You cant really balance talents. No matter how you change it, there will always be one "best" talents that everyone will choose.

 

How do you figure? What makes balancing talents so impossible?

[mynhauzen]

Totally agree. If you remove hp, armor will be op, and running speed. Remove those and weapon speed will be op etc. it is impossible to balance completely different talents and btw there is no reason to do so

[Adamantium]

All you mentioned was removing. Why not adjust the numbers?

[Skydie]

All you mentioned was removing. Why not adjust the numbers?

 

Not worth when certain talents are must-have and put you at a disadvantage without taking them. When you only have 6 points, and 2 are de facto then you know you have something wrong.

[DavidChan]

Also, changing the number will do nothing. If you nerf HP, weapon dmg, movement speed, shield etc talents too much, people will just go for the next best talents such as transport, fortify, respawn time talent, etc.

 

The best way I see it is to make ppl only able to choose offense, defense, or utility. then start balancing in each categories for hero roles.. u get my point

[ginosaji]

 

The best way I see it is to make ppl only able to choose offense, defense, or utility. then start balancing in each categories for hero roles.. u get my point

 

Or have 3 tiers in each category instead of the two that currently exist, that would force people to commit to a certain branch of the talent tree.

[ANARCHY]

Or have 3 tiers in each category instead of the two that currently exist, that would force people to commit to a certain branch of the talent tree.

i couldn't agree with you more at least for the meantime

but i have a much more radical proposal;

 

split the talent tree into;

Offense on left side

Defense on right side

utilities in middle

 

create more tiers in the talent tree & allow choosing of utility talents even if you have 0 points in utility if you have an equivalent amount in either offense or defense (not combined)

example 1; if you got 3 offense talents you could choose any utilities up to lvl 3 in utility tree if you chose to do so

example 2; if you got 2 offense talents and 2 defense talents you could only choose up to lvl 2 utilities

 

reasoning;

well basically every hero uses the utility tree, its not specific to spell casters at all

i would like to see other options for spell casters in the offense tree like DoT on spell damage, mana leech, casting timescale (cast spells faster)

 

standard aa hero gets 2-3-1 / 2-1-3

tanks get 1-3-2 / 0-3-3 / 0-4-2

casters get 1-1-4 / 1-2-3

 

i think it only makes sense, it will also stop aa heroes becoming super tanks for no reason at all

[KDawgKilla]

or here is an idea. switch the placement of hp regen talent with the health talent. forcing players to use 2 talents in defence if they want the usefull hp talent

[Moo]

Lets remove abilities from the game. They are always chosen. Lets also remove items. It also seems like they are always chosen as well.

 

BS aside lets get something straight here: It isn't always chosen. I hardly ever choose it. Yes it is useful in early game, but that's about it. Lets take into consideration AA heroes, that are the most played (Shadow ,Nova, Zeratul, Darpa). Mid game I find they are doing more than 180 damage a hit, so it really isn't useful.. Getting the armor, the talent that gives you movement speed under a certain % of health left, health regen, cooldown reduction (especially useful if you have an escape ability or walls), the rest are up to you. I find that the movement speed talent (in defensive talent tree) is great since it gives you a greater chance of getting away, and avoiding a lot more damage than you would have taken if you didn't have it. So let's stop BS'ing ourselves with this talent is "too OP" or "always chosen", because it isn't.

If you don't take the hp talent and your enemy laner does, it gives them a huge advantage. Try not taking it vs a rancor, his cloak+snipe will do over 1/4 of your hp at lvl 3, and it does just about half of your hp if you are playing a hero with low base hp like nova. If you don't take hp talent vs half the heroes in the game, they can easily win lane either by hare assign you and your low hp pool, or by killing you because you are missing 1/4 of the hp you would have had if you had taken the hp talent. You can tell when a nova/darpa doesn't take the hp talent, since they only have one line in the middle of their hp bar, and a couple of aa chunks them down to a little over half hp. The hp talent is miles better than every other tier one talent except movespeed and energy IMO.

[thomulf]

Lets remove abilities from the game. They are always chosen. Lets also remove items. It also seems like they are always chosen as well.

 

BS aside lets get something straight here: It isn't always chosen. I hardly ever choose it. Yes it is useful in early game, but that's about it. Lets take into consideration AA heroes, that are the most played (Shadow ,Nova, Zeratul, Darpa). Mid game I find they are doing more than 180 damage a hit, so it really isn't useful.. Getting the armor, the talent that gives you movement speed under a certain % of health left, health regen, cooldown reduction (especially useful if you have an escape ability or walls), the rest are up to you. I find that the movement speed talent (in defensive talent tree) is great since it gives you a greater chance of getting away, and avoiding a lot more damage than you would have taken if you didn't have it. So let's stop BS'ing ourselves with this talent is "too OP" or "always chosen", because it isn't.

 

Agree zeal awesome.

 

Disagree on hp, yes it gets meaningless endgame, but really, any 2-man team can take advantage of your squishiness to get 1-2 kills on you. I'm not saying it needs to be removed, but we could do something along the "similarization" line, like nerfing it to 140 and giving every hero +40 base health.

[Indo]

or here is an idea. switch the placement of hp regen talent with the health talent. forcing players to use 2 talents in defence if they want the usefull hp talent

daflob? since when do you need to spend 2 points into the tree before you can get hp regen?

 

@scrubhaven uhm well thats pretty bm when you have pretty much all on defence and it enables you to take the best utility " ability/talent". Better only if you have like 3-0-3 you may spend the currently non excisting seventh point on the utility talent that needs 3 in utility

[TaxHaven]

 

daflob? since when do you need to spend 2 points into the tree before you can get hp regen?

 

@scrubhaven uhm well thats pretty bm when you have pretty much all on defence and it enables you to take the best utility " ability/talent". Better only if you have like 3-0-3 you may spend the currently non excisting seventh point on the utility talent that needs 3 in utility

 

I thought scrubhaven was banned from the forums

[Skydie]

I thought scrubhaven was banned from the forums

 

How's your neighbour doing nowadays? Not talked to him in a while.

[TaxHaven]

 

 

How's your neighbour doing nowadays? Not talked to him in a while.

 

Yea he is good thanks he's celebrating the holidays hard

[SmittyGFunk]

Saying the health is useless is a statement rooted in thoughtlessness. 180 health is a good ammount of survivability and extra time in lane early when those things improve your mid and late game quite a bit. Take for example agi heroes taking weapon speed talent, it seems more than common and those toons will cap out weapon speed long before the last item since agi gives atk speed. But the early game benefit outweighs using the talent for something more useful in the late game like spell resist or the like. The talents as they are now are a nice selection of tools for everyone depending on role/toon/playstyle, because we are not machines who all play exactly tbe same way.

[atomheartman]

You can pick or not to pick weapon dmg/speed, you can pick or not pick cool down reduction/+200 starting mana but you always pick 2 talents: health and MS - thats all.