Mineral distribution in AoS

[Spooky]

I took a closer look at current mineral distribution meta in AoS. Well, I don't really like it. I think numbers behind this are simply bad and moreover are the cause of some problems AoS has right now.

 

1) Passive mineral gain vs minerals from creep kills

In AoS passive mineral gain is way too significant in compare to minerals which comes from standard farming - last hits. Lets say that during 10 minutes of the game some hero got 100 creep kills, which is great score. That's worth around 2400 minerals (around 24 minerals per creep). During this time he additionally earned 600 minerals from passive mineral gain (1 mineral per second). What does it mean? Even if u farmed like mad 25% of what u earned u actually got for doing nothing. That percent is even higher for heroes which opened with some mineral item, like Lost Treasure (boosting mineral gain by 50%). How it affects gameplay:

- game doesn't promoting last hits while its part of the player skill, they are not as significant as they suppose to

- game is very unbalanced in uneven match ups - that's why carries can't out-farm enemies casters, tanks or support heroes in those matches

- mineral gain items are must have for every type of hero (they suppose to target support heroes mainly with low farming capabilities) - they simply gives too big difference

 

2) Minerals from towers vs minerals from hero kills and assists

I think minerals amount entire team get for taking down single tower is too high. 200 minerals per hero is quite a lot in compare how fast heroes can farming or how much team gets for killing some hero. Basically its promoting pushing comps as it allows entire team to start snowballing. Actually same applies to minerals team can get from bosses. 250 and 400 mineral boost is very significant in compare to other sources of minerals. Killing towers, bosses should help mainly support heroes with slow farm, but actually it affect carries a lot as it is significant part of their farm. That's why team may start snowballing so hard after taking, for example, 2 towers and Aeon. But somehow it doesn't happened after few successful ganks. In other words game promoting pushing over ganking and pushing over farming, while all 3 aspects should be even. This way pushing comps wouldn't be superior over comps with strong teamfight.

 

3) Possible solutions:

- increase minerals from creep kills and hero kills/assists (btw. that would be some kind of nerf to Nova as her Q would become less significant)

- decrease amount of minerals gained from towers/bosses and from passive mineral gain

- some mix of both (to keep summarized mineral distribution for entire team at same level as it is now)

 

4) Result:

- promoting last hit skills - its sth which should define good carry player

- nerf to pushing comps and heroes (its easier for such a comps to get bosses too)

- better balance for uneven match ups (so tanks can't out-farm carries so easily)

[Yaldi]

How about losing money when you die :)

 

Also with the gp5 items the main problem is they all build into an item that is worth having so you dont have to keep it for x amount of time before it becomes helpful

[thomulf]

why nerf support heroes?

Do all of them need nerfing?

What is the real problem here, mineral gain or gp10 items?

 

You need to consider the implications of what you're suggesting. Stable income is needed to guarantee a degree of safety for heroes who don't farm as much. Else you could get way bigger snowballs/onesidedness than currently, and that would be detrimental to the balance, not helpful.

[Hogwarts]

I think the passive money is fine.

 

Not every hero is intended to last hit. Reducing this passive mineral growth will only hurt heroes like jackson who all ready have a hard time last hitting in lane compared to a Nova or Null.

 

Your taking this approach that every hero is a carry. When you dual lane you should have 1 hero feeding all the cs to the other hero. To get that hero fed. Normally a support and a carry

 

I.E a Micro Vespus lane, 90% of the CS should go to toxy The passive mineral is a crutch to help more support orientated heroes stay in the game.

 

Another great example is Tosh Brine, Justicar Tosh, Rory Shadow etc...

 

On the other hand

 

Sticking your dps in the jungle normally gets them ahead any way. The jungle in this game is pretty ridiculous. The best thing i enjoy about LOL is that your ADC / DPS can not afk farm the jungle. They dont have enough sustain and or clearing power to jungle effectively

 

The only thing that should be nerfed in money wise is the jungle exp gain and income. I think if you jungle you should be behind the lanes in minerals and level slightly. And the way the jungler can keep up is supporting the lanes effectively with ganks and or covering a lane for some one who needs to recall. Jungle in aos is a no brainier afk easy mode eating cupcakes with one hand and having your dick in the other.

 

Honestly there is a lot wrong with this game.

 

Check out this post i made about talents and how one sided they are.

[Straighter]

I dont think pushers need a nerf ...

but i totally agree Quidditch ... jungle should get a nerf ... u get ahead for doing nothing.

Even if u dont gank u get an advantage ...

jungle should be a source of income that allows a hero that cant lane to get some income, but he should never get ahead trough that...

[EterNity]

It will make sense to fix all those problems but that's not how AoS works.

[CrazySoldier]

I think pretty much any hero could carry in this game when I played and agree that cs is not important enough because of natural income plus gp10 items.

And I don't think the idea of support and carry lane really applies in AoS it's just more denying the other hero in the lane that is usually most important. And jungle should give less money I think. If u never gank you are still ahead of everyone else in the game besides the other jungle.

Edited December 18, 2013 by CrazySoldier

[Spooky]

Jungle is subject for another topic, but yes, its hard to not agree with u. I share same views about that.

 

I think the main problem with those changes I suggested is that in AoS there is lack of heroes which can be considered as true support. There are only few heroes which skill set is powerful enough without any additional items: Egon, Geneva, Queen, Rory, Tosh. There are few more with powerful skill set, but they require some amount of farm to be tanky enough, like Jackson, Drake, Akasha, Micro. Thats why I suggested to increase money from hero kills and assists as well.

 

In Dota 2 there are powerful support heroes which every game they are completely under-farmed and under-leveled. Besides they are loosing money once they get killed while usually they are main target for enemy team. Passive gain is exactly the same as in AoS, but every creep is worth 2 times more minerals. However items for carries are little bit more expensive. Minerals from towers is little bit lower I believe (last hitting tower gives additional bonus though). And game is balanced where last hitting really matters.

[Hogwarts]

Jungle is subject for another topic, but yes, its hard to not agree with u. I share same views about that.

 

I think the main problem with those changes I suggested is that in AoS there is lack of heroes which can be considered as true support. There are only few heroes which skill set is powerful enough without any additional items: Egon, Geneva, Queen, Rory, Tosh. There are few more with powerful skill set, but they require some amount of farm to be tanky enough, like Jackson, Drake, Akasha, Micro. Thats why I suggested to increase money from hero kills and assists as well.

 

In Dota 2 there are powerful support heroes which every game they are completely under-farmed and under-leveled. Besides they are loosing money once they get killed while usually they are main target for enemy team. Passive gain is exactly the same as in AoS, but every creep is worth 2 times more minerals. However items for carries are little bit more expensive. Minerals from towers is little bit lower I believe (last hitting tower gives additional bonus though). And game is balanced where last hitting really matters.

 

I can easily agree with you the the lane phase in aos is more casual and last hitting isnt as important as lets say zoning out your opponent. It almost feels like the lane phase is a derp fest and doesn't have a real impact on the game. The only thing that matters are the early team fights and split pushing. In aos you can 100% win your lane but your opponent is still not that far behind you. In LOL if you obliterate your lane it takes a long time before your lane opponent is caught back up. I think this could be because in LOL the tier 3-4 items are a lot cheaper Thats games version of Kali Blade is like 3800 minerals. So when mid game comes around the income differences has more of an impact. Because you have more completed items with there unique passives instead of a hand full of components.

 

And denying in aos really isn't worth it any more unless its an easy deny. Id rather just focus on getting last hits for a higher income.

[zeeeend]

I can easily agree with you the the lane phase in aos is more casual and last hitting isnt as important as lets say zoning out your opponent. It almost feels like the lane phase is a derp fest and doesn't have a real impact on the game. The only thing that matters are the early team fights and split pushing. In aos you can 100% win your lane but your opponent is still not that far behind you. In LOL if you obliterate your lane it takes a long time before your lane opponent is caught back up. I think this could be because in LOL the tier 3-4 items are a lot cheaper Thats games version of Kali Blade is like 3800 minerals. So when mid game comes around the income differences has more of an impact. Because you have more completed items with there unique passives instead of a hand full of components.

 

And denying in aos really isn't worth it any more unless its an easy deny. Id rather just focus on getting last hits for a higher income.

Still not that far is relative, if you can quit the laning phase 1,5 levels ahead of them you have a massive boost in the early midgame.

You will knock down any tower when they are below 6 and you are close to 7. Then its just snowball ahead for items.

 

As for denying i agree completely. I once had a lane Nova(demigod hatchet) vs dustin (me) were i got flobed hard 9/10 denies into 17/25 denies. Nova was lacking lasthits because of this however. This extreem denie ended ofc when i leveled but was still a pain lanewise.

When laning ended lvl 9 for her 8.5 for me , (I examined the replay because i was really wondering how bad it was) it turned out i was only down 250 in total.

So dispite this insane focus on denying she was barrely higher with income.

[Rim]

As far as I recall the early versions of Aeon/Sotis had people asking that passive mineral gain would get increased in order to speed up the over all outcomes of a match.

 

Personally I think the game does need some tweaks but it's certainly not for the passive mineral gain.

[Hogwarts]

I agree with Rim i have no complaints about the current passive mineral gain. Eco has been increasing trying to have the average game end faster around the 30-45 min mark. I know i keep going off topic but my complaints are more along the lines of the jungle. And if i were to nerf any passive mineral gain i would throw the pub scene a bone and take away that mineral leaver bonus. Its ridiculous when you actually do the math.

[Yaldi]

No one is really complaining about the passive mineral gain its more the fact that for example getting some weapon damage item first to allow for better last hitting is worse than getting a gp5 item.... Also that pushing towers and getting aeon is better than just farming.

 

Also jungle is fully retarded.

[Moo]

I agree with nerfing the jungle, and I think that the bosses and towers should be slightly nerfed to discourage pushing comps as spooky said. Pushing shouldn't give you so many advantages, as right now it gives a lot of money, ends the game, and provides map control, and all are extremely important goals.

[EterNity]

Jungle creeps should be strong and has their own set of skills.

 

You should require teamwork and timing to kill jungle creeps. They shouldn't be extra cash for team that can clear lane wave fast.

 

As for now, jungling is the safest way to farm early game with a very low possibility to be ganked while leeching off the lane experience.

 

It's all around best way for carry to be since it's safer than solo a lane.

 

If this is the "unique" way our developers like it, I have nothing to say since I, myself, enjoy the jungle in AoS and its overwhelming benefits.

[Crimson]

Jungle creeps should be strong and has their own set of skills.

 

You should require teamwork and timing to kill jungle creeps. They shouldn't be extra cash for team that can clear lane wave fast.

 

As for now, jungling is the safest way to farm early game with a very low possibility to be ganked while leeching off the lane experience.

 

It's all around best way for carry to be since it's safer than solo a lane.

 

If this is the "unique" way our developers like it, I have nothing to say since I, myself, enjoy the jungle in AoS and its overwhelming benefits.

 

Lol its not saver at lest not from me its easy to stop jungle heroes its all about timing as you gank them as they are farming most of the time they are soloing an taking damage from the creep, now if you gank that hero well he's fighting the creep about 95% of the time you can kill him.

 

The money fine as is an as some people said nerfing the passive gain of money will kill all the support roles that cant farm early on an will be easier feed then they are once the dps an other class's gets more kills under the belt.

Jungle creeps should be strong and has their own set of skills.

 

You should require teamwork and timing to kill jungle creeps. They shouldn't be extra cash for team that can clear lane wave fast.

 

As for now, jungling is the safest way to farm early game with a very low possibility to be ganked while leeching off the lane experience.

 

It's all around best way for carry to be since it's safer than solo a lane.

 

If this is the "unique" way our developers like it, I have nothing to say since I, myself, enjoy the jungle in AoS and its overwhelming benefits.

 

The Aeon an Levi are the jungle creeps that need team work thats why they are there to help get ahead as a team or help start a comeback.