Evasion

[Yaldi]

How does evasion work in relation to on hit effects, crits etc...?

[Indo]

you don't get hit= no effect at all

you get hit= all of it affects you

 

If I understood it right

Edited December 7, 2013 by Indo

[ginosaji]

you don't get hit= no effect at all

you get hit= all of it affects you

 

If I understood it right

 

correct

[aletoledo]

Sword breaker and time splitter don't seem to stack, which seems like they should. I wonder if evasion has a max cap?

[Indo]

its the samew unique so they are not supposed to stack

[zeeeend]

correct

FALSE!....

I mean do you even test these things or just randomly think yes or no ?!

 

All on effects like: foe (hammer), cerebro (possibly atom/stars/bhm couldn't test em), khali (axe), cont shard WORK!. It even makes makes paralax work

You can even crit a missed hit, it shows 0! this means it registers it as hit it just reduces the dmg to 0 before any migation.

 

Due to lazyness/forget on my part i didn't test shadowmourn/pyre and i think heroics of grunty/nova work aswell

I also think it would effect emantle(getting the stun while you missed) and timesplitter (getting stunned from a missed hit) But these are speculations

 

ps* with cont shard i mean granting a debuff stack not applying dmg,

Just came to me i think it would also cancel the D base teleport.

Edited December 7, 2013 by zeeeend

[Yaldi]

If it removes the damage from them all then I think evasion is op

[zeeeend]

Its random so its stupid. It was one of the reasons it was removed from tassadar and the previous talents.

 

The cerebro did deal damage not sure about how much i just noticed it did. So i guess atom and stars will as well, unsure about bhm/shinobi as its purely weapondmg based so it can go either way.

If pyre works it'll also deal dmg which i guess it will.

[EterNity]

Evasion was once taken from the game which was a good decision.

 

For whatever reason, our developers decide to bring it back without any counter.

 

I dont know if the evasion in AoS is true random or pseudo random. It makes a huge difference while there are no information anywhere to be found.

 

For any competitive game, the randomness should be minimum and with the current state of AoS, the only counter to evasion is spell damage.

 

A lack of true-strike item makes the evasion really strong and this issue should be addressed. However, it is not up to me to make that call.

[smorgishborg]

Agreed, there needs to be an item that prevents missing or remove/nerf the hell out of evasion.

[Indo]

100% evasion for a small time is better then some random rate ... like vergil jump evasion where he is basicaly is immune to aa for a while.

 

Better make every 5th hit stun and the active be evasion for 1.5-2.5 seconds for timesplitter lmo

[zeeeend]

100% evasion for a small time is better then some random rate ... like vergil jump evasion where he is basicaly is immune to aa for a while.

 

Better make every 5th hit stun and the active be evasion for 1.5-2.5 seconds for timesplitter lmo

Retarded idea, it was 5th hit with last batch of items granting an almost stunlock on attackspeed capped heroes. With the new shadouwmourn it will result in a perma stunlock.

[ANARCHY]

Retarded idea, it was 5th hit with last batch of items granting an almost stunlock on attackspeed capped heroes. With the new shadouwmourn it will result in a perma stunlock.

there is no masamune to get to ridiculous attack speeds anymore

[Indo]

Retarded idea, it was 5th hit with last batch of items granting an almost stunlock on attackspeed capped heroes. With the new shadouwmourn it will result in a perma stunlock.

so you thin 2 small stuns that you can 100% rely on are less op then 1 every 5th hit ( ~every 2,1-2,3 seconds depending on cap).

 

Also think about that every 5th early-midgame means every 3.5-4.5 seconds unlike stunknife

[MrGrim]

If I remember correctly last item patch stun knife was more expensive (2200 I think) and didn't build into anything like this stun knife/ts making it a more niche item for heroes like tosh. AA's could get better items without having to go stun every game.

[zeeeend]

so you thin 2 small stuns that you can 100% rely on are less op then 1 every 5th hit ( ~every 2,1-2,3 seconds depending on cap).

 

Also think about that every 5th early-midgame means every 3.5-4.5 seconds unlike stunknife

Yes, 2 small stuns (active(next patch)) with cooldown is less OP then 1 every 5th hit.

Because you can taser someone to prevent them from activating it

You can get a paralax and get stunned once (second one is eaten for a bit by paralax)

You can take the 2 stuns like a man (justicar) and prevent the enemy from stunning anyone else till the cooldown is over. With every 5th you just can't!

 

The shadowmourn stuns every 5th hit aswell so its more then 2 stuns every 2.1-2.3 seconds. Drake wont ulti again, jackson can't because they are attacked (no abl or items just attacked) by 1 aa carry... Does that sound balanced ?

Lets talk raw numbers stun knife = 3 stuns max until cooldown resets.

With the old (and by your ideal world new) stunknife i just need to attack and get 1 stun every 2 seconds!!! No matter what happens just keep attacking and flob anyone who tries to channel.

 

Even more fun get it on tassadar 3 stuns every 5 attacks, no thats not right its 1 stun every 5 attacks x 3. So yeah still basicly stunlocking anyone. They go for the paralax ? IGNORE! in 2 seconds ill just stun em again. Who cares about skill just keep attacking and they will get stunned.

I know massamune is gone but the shadowmourn will now stun aswell! that version it was a shadow of the person being attacked unlike now.

Edited December 8, 2013 by zeeeend

[Indo]

think about that most dps have some skill to get in range ( darpa jump nova vanish etc.) and that you can active it like 30 seconds before you use it so he will press stun knife ( probably gonna have ocelot) so for example nova vanishs at you, aa, ocelot proc, stun, you press some item/ skill but no STUN again and item canceled and he will keep aaing you so taser is only usefull when you can reach him/her before he aas you even once and maybe he is untargetable like ling with all his minions around

[ginosaji]

think about that most dps have some skill to get in range ( darpa jump nova vanish etc.) and that you can active it like 30 seconds before you use it so he will press stun knife ( probably gonna have ocelot) so for example nova vanishs at you, aa, ocelot proc, stun, you press some item/ skill but no STUN again and item canceled and he will keep aaing you so taser is only usefull when you can reach him/her before he aas you even once and maybe he is untargetable like ling with all his minions around

 

98% of the time vanished is used as a retreat mechanism in a competitive game. You never use it to run into a team fight.

[Mus]

98% of the time vanished is used as a retreat mechanism in a competitive game. You never use it to run into a team fight.

 

Well, 98% of the time... The remaining 2% allows for some funny moments.

 

What's up Lolita?

[Yaldi]

 

 

98% of the time vanished is used as a retreat mechanism in a competitive game. You never use it to run into a team fight.

 

Not if you are gangsta.

[Guest Yamato]

98% of the time vanished is used as a retreat mechanism in a competitive game. You never use it to run into a team fight.

 

I wouldn't say never. Any skill that provides good escape will also provide good initiation, which also means that you can use Vanish to catch up.

[Hogwarts]

98% of the time vanished is used as a retreat mechanism in a competitive game. You never use it to run into a team fight.

 

iono i use vanish all the time to enter a team fight....

[Indo]

why would you not, it makes ocelot/bhm/cerebro trigger if you have it and also gives you some advantage when you have stunk knife + you can use ulti becaus you caught up to them pretty fast

[ginosaji]

I wouldn't say never. Any skill that provides good escape will also provide good initiation, which also means that you can use Vanish to catch up.

iono i use vanish all the time to enter a team fight....

why would you not, it makes ocelot/bhm/cerebro trigger if you have it and also gives you some advantage when you have stunk knife + you can use ulti becaus you caught up to them pretty fast

 

I see my original point was unclear, as my hyperbole was not understood....

 

98% is quite a high estimation. In reality, I use it maybe 25-50% to enter a teamfight. What I was really trying to get at is that using BHM not a good item on Nova, especially with the nerf. Your E should be saved as a movement mechanic, which includes a large portion of the time where you will want to save it as an escape, depending on the team comp you are facing. Your Q has a 7 second cooldown, meaning you can't maximize BHM with it, as you obviously won't be getting a kill if you're using it to proc BHM unless you get lucky with a creep wave around with a low creep to Q. I don't think you can reasonably rely on that scenario however. Your E can't be entirely relied on for a BHM proc because at least a sizable percentage of the time you will want to use it as an escape rather than an initiation. Let's say 50% of the time you'll be able to use E to proc BHM.

 

If you agree with my reasoning so far, that means you get a proc on Q, then 50% of the time you can proc again on your E, then Q again after C/Ds. Another scenario E (50% of the time as an initiation tool), Proc BHM, wait for C/D, Q, BHM proc. The first scenario is heavily dependent on movements of the enemy and engagement timings, so I don't think it's ll that viable to rely on that scenario for a reasonable desription of the effectiveness of BHM. The second scenario is much more plausible.

 

In the first scenario you get 3 BHM procs over 12 seconds.

 

In the second scenario you get effectively get 2 procs over 8 seconds.

 

Obviously the damage you get out of it depends on where you are in the game. Let's say you have around 350-400 weapon damage and around .5 weapon speed, which would be achieved by early-mid late game usually. With 350 weapon damage you get 96.25 DPS out of the item. At 400 weapon damage, you get 110. Even pre nerf at 400 weapon damage, you get 125 dps out of it. Now consider that FOE gives 60 DPS (assuming .5 weapon speed) on top of the HP and the slow. So, even if you can rely on E rushing in to proc BHM 100% of the time (which I think it's more likely around 50%), your DPS from the item is still much lower than pretty much any other DPS item out there. Even sliptide gives around 120 dps from the on hit spell damage on top of the movespeed and spell resist for 500 minerals more.

 

Obviously, BHM is meant as a burst item, not a DPS item. Nova has to build weapon speed early, unlike burst heroes like zera and ling who can take full advantage of BHM. Their skillsets allow them to entirely ignore weapon speed and focus almost entirely on weapon damage, which makes BHM super effective as a means of damage amp mid game. Because Nova has to buy weapon speed, she doesn't experience as extreme a growth in weapon damage, making BHM less effective mid game. This makes BHM not really viable until late game when she has weapon damage, but by that point other items are better for her anyway. Basically my point is that Nova is a DPS hero, not a burst. She can be built more burst heavy, but it's more effective to go Crit with her built in Crit mechanic and her passive.

 

Edit: Math is hard.

Edited December 11, 2013 by ginosaji

[Crimson]

I like evade its not random just chance is low, unlike it was in sotis where it was much higher cause of the evade boots miss those on my drake make him so fun.

 

Evade gets buff by the % of the time splitter item to what ever the base % is. for all we know it could be 2.5% then x25%=4.0625 chance if that's the case that that's why its low cause think of it this way if it was truly just 25% that means 25% of the time you could be taking 0 damage on every hit now that might not seem to big but if you got lucky an say 8 hits miss back to back that's a high chance of happening at 25% say vs 5 to 10%.

But to be sure on how its truly works more info is needed normally that's how the old evade worked but the stats was a bit higher an could stack alot more.