"Tier 1 heroes" simply need a tiny Nerf - Suggestions...

[Sphynx]

A lot of Heroes in in-house games are suggested for BANS

 

Micro; Drake; Nully; Queen; MK

 

Here is a suggestion to fix at least 1 of these heroes. Others can suggest more as well.

 

1) Micro

 

Micro is a strong Tank, with a strong initiation.

His throw is much easier to hit than Drake. I think this is major reason Micro is a really nice tank.

 

There is one problem though. Micro also seems to do a heck of a lot of damage. His throw, slime, aa (with passive) can kill a lot of heroes.

 

I think to make him a little weaker, his Passive should be changed. I think Micro's base damage should be less, thus he becomes more of an initiator/tank… and less strong with his damage. His base damage could also be lowered slightly.

[Mus]

Micro isn't strong because of his damage, it's because of his built in blink and large toss range. Nerfing his damage won't change anything, he will still be T1.

[Lios]

Not that much damage for micro, people just build stuff too squishy...

[Sphynx]

It its "not a problem" then reduce his damage and see what happens :P

 

The point is, make him weaker on his own. If he is a great initiator.. make him weaker at other things like killing creeps, doing damage… this will affect this hero. Nerf his passive and his starting damage to make his AA UP. Then Micro always needs a buddy.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Sphynx

[Sphynx]

You could also lower the amount of damage done by his Toss. The long range alone is where it is strong. I do not want to neuter the character, just create a point of weakness.

 

If you are playing a SQUISHY hero, Micro is deadly 1on1 early in the game. Not all tanks are as scary. And the distance on the throw is not the ONLY reason to be scared of him… its by the time u get back to where u were, he has almost killed you by himself. Don't tell me "he isn't that strong"… he should be weak in comparison to other heroes if he is going to have such great initiation and tanky-ness. He has "no weakness" that is why he is Tier 1.

 

Anyway, its a discussion thread… Show me how u reduce him from Tier 1 to Tier 2. To me damage reduction is a good start. What is your suggestion?

 

Or suggestion for other T1 heroes.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Sphynx

[Lios]

You could also lower the amount of damage done by his Toss. The long range alone is where it is strong. I do not want to neuter the character, just create a point of weakness.

 

If you are playing a SQUISHY hero, Micro is deadly 1on1 early in the game. Not all tanks are as scary. And the distance on the throw is not the ONLY reason to be scared of him… its by the time u get back to where u were, he has almost killed you by himself. Don't tell me "he isn't that strong"… he should be weak in comparison to other heroes if he is going to have such great initiation and tanky-ness. He has "no weakness" that is why he is Tier 1.

 

Anyway, its a discussion thread… Show me how u reduce him from Tier 1 to Tier 2. To me damage reduction is a good start. What is your suggestion?

 

Or suggestion for other T1 heroes.

 

If your point is nerf all T1, there will be never a T1 hero will exist... Smart drafting comes into play an important part of the game, I want to just leave them there with their power, but create some sort of counter to them, like completely nullify their ability and stuff...

[Mus]

You can nerf Micro's damage to shap and I won't care. He will still be T1 in my draft. The only way to lower him from T1 would be to nerf his blink and toss.

[Sphynx]

If your point is nerf all T1, there will be never a T1 hero will exist... Smart drafting comes into play an important part of the game, I want to just leave them there with their power, but create some sort of counter to them, like completely nullify their ability and stuff...

 

Its a game with what? 50 some odd heroes?

 

The draft shouldn't be about how many of the 6-8 T1 heroes you pick, and if you blocked people from picking them etc etc.

 

You can't honestly say you enjoy the fact that there are clearly a FEW STRONGER heroes better than ALL the others. They should all have pluses and minuses.

 

The amount of strategy choices with 50 EQUAL heroes is a big deal.

 

Drake recently had an ULT nerf. Good start

Edited December 5, 2013 by Sphynx

[Mus]

Well there are quite a lot of heroes, but most of them are situational. For example, Micro works very well in almost any team comp whereas Leo does not. It is for this reason that Micro will always be picked long before Leo is even considered.

 

Basically T1 heroes work well in most team comps and are very strong at their role. You can hit them with the nerf bat to try to knock them off the T1 spot, this has been done with Vorpal. Vorpal used to be first pick material but then his W got nerfed hard and now he is more of a 4th pick hero. The end result was that other heroes rose to T1 to fill the empty space.

[Lios]

 

 

Its a game with what? 50 some odd heroes?

 

The draft shouldn't be about how many of the 6-8 T1 heroes you pick, and if you blocked people from picking them etc etc.

 

You can't honestly say you enjoy the fact that there are clearly a FEW STRONGER heroes better than ALL the others. They should all have pluses and minuses.

 

The amount of strategy choices with 50 EQUAL heroes is a big deal.

 

Drake recently had an ULT nerf. Good start

 

Haters :|, pls buff Egon

[Moo]

I agree with this. I don't think that all heroes will ever be as strong because of how complex the game is, but I think we should try to get as close as possible. I think the range of micro's toss should be nerfed (since it is ridiculously large and you can be way far from your team and still throw a squishy into your own team if they were behind their team), the knockup time of drake ult OR his W should have a steeper hp cost to himself, but keep its damage the same (which would lower his mobility since he couldn't have the MS boost from W all the time and it would be a conscious decision of when to use it), I think that Queen's R stun duration should be nerfed (to make her less effective in team fights),I think MK's ulti creep should deal less damage to heroes or be less tanky (to make his dps lower in teamfights), and last of all I think that bully's force fields should be changed to just two charges (to lower his cc a bit).

These are changes that I think would help with lowering the power of the heroes without making too drastic of changes that could cause them to be underpowered.

[Lios]

2 Force field charge, increase force field size... Leave Null alone.

[Moo]

2 Force field charge, increase force field size... Leave Null alone.

Null is OP, why do you want to keep him the same?

[Sphynx]

The T1 heroes are not just about team comp. They are literally "slightly" OP. That is why they are called T1 heroes.

 

 

I think the game is pretty close to being really balanced. Once the T1's are reduced. It will be. There should be variation in top DPS picks, INT picks, and STR picks.

[lololol]

the fact there is a BAN means the game is unbalanced. in a well balanced game there would be multiple and vastly different combinations of a 5-player team that are strong. right now, without a ban, probably 4/5 heroes chosen would be the same every game.

[Moo]

the fact there is a BAN means the game is unbalanced. in a well balanced game there would be multiple and vastly different combinations of a 5-player team that are strong. right now, without a ban, probably 4/5 heroes chosen would be the same every game.

Just because there are bans does not mean the game is unbalanced, bans add strategy, they can be used to stop enemies from countering your comp, and they can be used to stop the last piece of an enemy's comp. I do think that the game is not completely balanced (I do think it is very close, and I think the dev team is heading in the right direction in terms of balance), but the fact that bans are in the game does not mean that it is unbalanced.

[TaxHaven]

You could also lower the amount of damage done by his Toss. The long range alone is where it is strong. I do not want to neuter the character, just create a point of weakness.

 

If you are playing a SQUISHY hero, Micro is deadly 1on1 early in the game. Not all tanks are as scary. And the distance on the throw is not the ONLY reason to be scared of him… its by the time u get back to where u were, he has almost killed you by himself. Don't tell me "he isn't that strong"… he should be weak in comparison to other heroes if he is going to have such great initiation and tanky-ness. He has "no weakness" that is why he is Tier 1.

 

Anyway, its a discussion thread… Show me how u reduce him from Tier 1 to Tier 2. To me damage reduction is a good start. What is your suggestion?

 

Or suggestion for other T1 heroes.

 

Well my beloved tass used to be T1 until they reduced his clone hp, Nerfed his ultimate and E and GP10 proc on his clone.

 

So if you want Micro in T2, nerf his toss range by half, build in a channel for his blink, reduce the scaling on his ulti, and rework his passive to something useless

[mynhauzen]

Its funny how people assume that if you nerf one hero, others keep the same. Well guess what? If you nerf one hero, others AUTOMATICALLY get a buff. If roach was weak before, he will automatically become better after the nerf of micro. The harder it is to initiate with one hero, the easier it gets to initiate with others.

 

The only way to "balance" is to make everyone VERY weak down to the point when 4 heroes cant kill one hero, but only 5 can kill one. In any other situation there will always be T1. And what is the point of nerfing some, if we surely know that some other will become t1? Funny that after a huge nerf to dps now t1 in inhouses are supports, and dps are the last picks. There's GOTTA be t1 heroes. It is moba! Heroes that can carry the game. It is impossible to make all heroes the same. You cant nerf without a system. And the system cant be down to neft everyone that can kill. It make no sense to do that!

Edited December 6, 2013 by mynhauzen

[Spooky]

If u have to keep dial banned on Micro to keep him balanced, then it clearly means he is too strong. And nerfing his damage output wont change anything, because Micro job is to Toss enemy, Slime his teammates and stun tossed hero who is trying to run away. Majority of damage will be done by his teammates. What should be changed is his built in blink ability - it should be reworked completely into sth else. For example into passive health regeneration aura which can scale with his max hp. This way Micro wouldn't be superior over Brine and Drake

[MOTHER]

You can't nerf t1 heroes by changing the numbers, their designs are simply functionally superior to most heroes and are all around more versatile and useful in a team.

 

The right way of going on about this is either redesigning some of the skills of these heroes (much better than nerfing the numbers and reducing them to boring heroes).

 

The alternative I favor is more heroes should be like t1 heroes, versatile and useful rather than 2D cut outs.

 

Heroes should be fun to play, this is paramount. Don't nerf heroes into monotony, buff everyone else.

[Gwolla]

Indeed, just buff the rest.

[WhitetrasH]

Why not create a single item (if i hasn't been done already), that essentially does what old taser (5 second stun + 20%??? damage amplification) did but without the damage amp & maybe a 3/4 second silence... problem solved. The item doesn't come cheap say maybe 3,5/4k+ & with maybe like a +5 to all attributes nothing that makes it really exceptional other than it's silence.

 

I don't think the problem is as much the hero as it could be an item issue or lack there of.

 

EDIT - Micro was always a very good initiator, I just find it funny that it's only now coming to light that he's to strong (& when i say to light now, i mean the past couple of monhs) He's just the perfect hero if done right... & fun imho too.

Edited December 6, 2013 by WhitetrasH

[FinalEnd]

LOL at this thread... First of all in every game ever made where you can select different characters, there is going to be a tier list. In Ultra street fighter for example they aren't nurfing any characters yet giving the lower tier characters buffs to balance the game more. Now granted if the character is unstoppable like Yun was when he first came out, then they nurfed him. But not to the point where he was D tier. Micro is not unstoppable.... Also you want to nurf micro but not do anything about drake and how much damage he can dish out to a whole team that just doesnt make any sense to me.

[Lios]

Null is OP, why do you want to keep him the same?

 

Because I like him. He require high skill cap ? If he can just point at one guy and click like cyprus ult then yea, his combo to kill people is like 6 clicks in 1 second. So stop trying, compare to queen who clear wave in 1 skill he's nothin', creep would just ignore his E which people called 'counter push'.

 

If you gonna say he's OP because you can't use him right or get raped by him countless time then...

[ginosaji]

Because I like him. He require high skill cap ? If he can just point at one guy and click like cyprus ult then yea, his combo to kill people is like 6 clicks in 1 second. So stop trying, compare to queen who clear wave in 1 skill he's nothin', creep would just ignore his E which people called 'counter push'.

 

If you gonna say he's OP because you can't use him right or get raped by him countless time then...

 

Null has been tier 1 since the new items. He used to be way OP before Star's/cerebro got a c/d. He's still strong for a variety of factors.

• Some of the stroongest counter push in the game
  
• Some of the strongest CC in the game
  
• Very good AOE damage out during teamfights with swords.
  
• Can easily build INT/AA, making him able to vary his build depending on team needs.
  

He's not overpowered, but he is very strong. He frequently gets picked first if he's not banned. We'll see how the beta nerf to his swords plays out.

 

He's in the top third I would say in terms of skill cap, but don't kid yourself, he's not all that difficult.

 

 

 

As a side note to the purpose of this thread... Your concern has/is been/being addressed for the most part. Every "tier 1 hero" has gotten a nerf. Micro's Jump got an increased c/d, Null's swords got a nerf, Justicar's Ult and Aura got a nerf, Drake's spell resist and Ult got a nerf, Queen's heal got a significant nerf, her banes got a nerf as well, and MK's aura got a nerf.

 

Brawler and Ling have gotten nerfs as well (which they needed).

 

These issues are being looked at. Changes should be small, as large changes create erratic shifts to the meta game, making it more difficult to properly balance the game in the future.

Edited December 6, 2013 by ginosaji