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op DOOM RANCOR ...... OP henry maar


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Firstly, a dominating replay of my Rancor play. Granted, 4 of my enemies were noobs, but the sheer amount of kills I got..............

 

Secondly, Maar is broken. In pubs, at least, I don't know about IHs. Firstly, it is impossible to push against him. The sheer range and spammability of his abilities, not to mention just how much his passive reduces all chances at retalitory harass, etc. After a million tries, he will push down your base, even if you leave people to defend (and you shouldn't have to have people on base defence 24/7, afraid to leave lest the deathball come rolling). One base to other base tele is OP. Any sort of creep added mobility is questionably strong, but the limit to which he can transport them is just ludicrous. Reaching the final objective against him is nigh impossible, and his backdooring is infintely more powerful and harder to counter than that of shadow, unix or ling. Pls fix. Henry WLR OP, because he cannot lose (I never leave lobbies, even when I know I have no chance, but while I confidently prepare myself to fight people like Highdrator, Henry, the Maar-only player, just crushed my spirit a long time ago leaving me with no delusions: yes I can easily get 40 kills on his team, plenty of times him too, but I have 0 chance of actually winning, without (and probably even with, though I've never tried) picking one of my boycotted (op) heroes.

 

Replay well worth watching.

 

http://www.sendspace.com/file/zxetir

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I am Henry. It’s my brother’s account. He’s been using my SourDiesel account to Play Diablo 3. I can prove it by uploading a bunch of replays or you can read my guide and you'll see it lines up exactly with how I play or you can take my word for it.

 

Interestingly, I was considering uploading this exact replay for an entirely different reason. Trying to teach newbs that AoS is not all about kills is incredibly difficult to do. I’ve had games where my team surrendered because we were down 7-8 kills with a four tower lead – games we were actually going to win. I’ve won lots of other games with -20 kill differentials but this game shows better than any other I’ve ever played that killing the temple, not killing the enemy heroes, is the objective of the game.

 

People look at the kill score at the top and use that as the end all be all measurement of who’s winning the game. In my opinion, AOS (and MOBA’s in general) is fundamentally about map control – the team with the most kills usually has map control but not always. Maar is strong because with transport, mass teleport, his AoE CC, and vision reduction passive it is very difficult to establish map control against him if he’s played properly.

 

My thoughts on why you lost that game:

 

As far as that specific game goes, you were down two players and had no carry. If Jakk had built hybrid or AA, it might have been different, but he did not. I played alright with Maar but the reason you lost wasn’t because I single handedly carried four feeders and beat all three of you. Despite my team mates being newbs, no one on your team had high enough dps to push through them and take out towers in the windows where I was dead. I died about four times where your team had a chance to counter push and you only broke one base tower. If that Jakk were an AA carry, those towers crumble the moment I die.

 

 

On you playing Rancor

 

As far as you personally, as soon as I saw the rampage I checked to see who had it and was thrilled to see that it was Rancor. Before I mained Maar, I mained Rancor. The problem with Rancor is that he is strongest in the mid game and cannot push at all. I knew you would max out your items and that I would get one shot a lot. But as long as I didn’t die when units were on the door step of our base, no Rancor was going to break in before I revived. I also knew that once I caught up in items, you wouldn’t be able to do shap. My final build had ~4.5k health and ~55% spell resist (Ihan [sold], Nitro, Gravity, Yamato, Organic, Electric Mantle, Spell Buffer)

 

 

On Countering Maar Directly

 

Maar has plenty of counters. People just aren’t familiar with them or how to use them because no one ever plays Maar besides highdrater and myself. Silence is incredibly strong against Maar. Darpa, Jackson, and Zera all hard counter Maar head to head. Parallax is Maar’s only option to deal with them and it won’t save you if you’re playing against an equally skilled/itemed Darpa or Jackson. Taser is really strong against Maar; Kitty or Shadow with a taser will obliterate Maar.

 

 

On Mass Teleport and countering it

 

Mass Teleport was nerfed several patches ago to limit the range to 120 units. You can’t teleport from base to base now unless you’re taking mid lane units to the opposing mid lane tower. If you watch the replay you’ll notice I mass teleport from outside our base to get the side towers.

 

People always miss the weakness with this strategy. Any time you mass teleport a wave you’re removing it from the regular line which allows the opposing wave to move through unopposed. If you have map control against Maar, you just need to keep all three lanes pushed down close to the towers. The minute he mass teleports a wave out, you can push the vacated lane through unopposed. With the nerf to Mass teleport, you don’t even have to guess which lane the vacated one will be – it will be middle because that is the only one that can reach the two side T2 towers and Mid T3 from inside the base.

 

Too often, the good players I run against make the mistake of sitting one or two players back on permanent defense. If I can make that happen, it’s a huge win because it allows the rest of my team to play with a man+ advantage across most of the map. If we’re behind, that gives us a chance to catch up. If we’re ahead, we can push standard and win without the mass teleporting.

 

The way I see it, countering mass teleport pushing is not hard; it just requires sound fundamental play from the other team. If you have the lead and map control against a turtling team you should be pinning the enemy down in their base by pushing all three lanes to the brink even if you can’t push through. That’s true regardless of whether you’re playing a maar or not (just if you’re not playing maar you’re probably so far ahead that it probably doesn’t matter what you do, you’ll win anyway). That way when the turtling team finally makes a mistake you can instantly punish them with a push into their base. Letting one of the three lanes move out towards your base is sloppy play and allows Maar to capitalize by teleporting a wave out of the extended lane and still have time to get back to clean up the counter pushing units.

 

If I was winning against someone who played maar like me, I'd keep all three lanes pushed near the enemy base, leave no one back on D. Eventually, he'd get desperate because you can’t win the game by turtling forever; he’d take the middle wave to the middle tower in a last ditch effort to turn the game around. When he did that, I'd counter push up the middle and trade middle tower for middle tower. From there, if you maintain control of the area around their base he won’t be able to teleport units to the two side T3 towers. Split push the two side towers and he’ll only be able to defend one side. Once two base towers are gone, it’s game over.

 

 

On Maar just "split pushing and teleporting on towers"

 

There’s a lot more to Maar than just split pushing and mass teleporting. Maar’s greatest strength, in my opinion, is his versatility. I had a game last week where I went like 25-1-5 and didn’t mass teleport onto a tower once because it was more effective to just overpower the enemy with destruction auras, saps, frost waves, and fireballs. I had another game a couple weeks ago where an allied boros and enemy shadow both snowballed and the best strategy was playing support for boros with shields, healing, frost waves, bating, and mass teleporting him across the map.

 

I posted back in march that mass teleport was OP. I think the nerf to 120 units has made it fair because units can no longer go from any spawn point to any tower which makes it more counterable, as I posted above. But, mass teleport definitely remains his strongest skill (it is his ult) and mass teleport pushing is still one of his most reliably good strategies. It’s a “David” strategy that isn’t really necessary (or even optimal) in games where your team is clearly superior but allows you to turn games that are evenly matched or where your team is outclassed in straight fights.

 

Mass Teleporting is not as simple as just taking units to a tower. Timing and map awareness are critical. You need to pay attention to where all the waves are on the map and how they’re moving (this is most easily done by watching your own waves – the enemy waves will match their position on the opposite side of the map). You want to teleport units into the tower right after the defending wave has passed it by so you have maximum time to focus on the tower. If you teleport units at the wrong time, the counter push will punish you more than any damage you do with the drop. Choosing which tower to drop on requires having a feel for where everyone is on the map, and choosing which lane to pull the creeps from requires understanding the range on mass teleport and where you’re most vulnerable to counter pushing. Finally, you need to know the flow of the game and whether it’s worth it to suicide to do maximum damage to the tower or whether dying will result in a counter push that your team won’t be able to stop without you.

 

 

On me only playing Maar

 

No one starts by maining Maar, and the suggestion that I somehow did is comical. Trying to learn all the basics of positioning, items, etc. and trying to learn maars skill set all at once would be a disaster. Plus, you got to deal with anticipating and planning which skills you need to cast in advance because of the 1-3 second delays in cast time while you get orbs up (other heroes you just cast the spell you want, maar you get your orbs up and then cast it). Nothing sucks more than having a red and blue up for sap when you’ve got an ally that needs a shield in the next second or he’s dead (you know what you need to cast but can’t get it out in time). Lately, I’ve been playing maar a lot and almost always select him if I respect the opponent I’m playing because he’s my main and because I’ve been refining my understanding of when I can get away with a mass teleport push and when the counter push is too strong as well as which utility items are the best to fill out my core build of Ihan – Gravity – Nitro – Yamato. I also wanted to make a point because about a month ago someone was trying to tell me how maar was the worst hero in the game and is only good for feeding. I've seen a few more maar's in games lately so I'm thinking that I'm at least creating awareness that he's actually a good hero.

 

Before Maar though I mained Rancor and before Rancor I learned by maining Nova. At various times I’ve gone through phases with Darpa, Balrog, Zeratul, Jackson, Brine, and Erekul. I'm trying to learn Garamond right now but you'll only see me playing him in games where I think the other team is bad because I'm not very good with him yet. I settled on Maar as my main because he suits my play style best. I like having a hero that is extremely adaptable and can win games even if my team falls behind or feeds. I also like having a hero that is outside the normal mold who can win using non-traditional tactics.

 

Edited by SourDiesel
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Thanks for the reply. But I still think that Maar is too good at "the final objective". The passive, combined with the high ground of base make it impossible to fight without being in the devastating aura range. Creeps die very quickly, so to deal damage, you will likely be tanking the aura AND the tower.

 

Many heroes kill creep waves quickly. Null, Cow are examples of such, but they are worthless at dealing damage to towers. Gara needs time to get his scvs, and he's not as mobile. Unix is good at backdooring, and killing towers but is also quite slow at pushing. Queen is OP and the most hated hero of mine, so I will not give her further mention. MK is similar to gara, though somewhat better at towers and worse at creep waves. Maar is basically better than all the above. Granted, its not a hero for any idiot to use and win. That's why there aren't massive Maar OP threads; anyone but a top tier maar is not going to cause problems.

 

The thing about maar is that he's impossible to contain. You can stop all waves as they go out, and also block all exits for heroes, but not so for maar. He will wipe your creep waves, and when the time is right, port near/at your base. 1v0 at your base will go a lot faster than 4v5 at his. So you have to go back every time, and as soon as you do, he will probably port out. And then its a LONG way back to his base, by which time he needs merely 2 creep waves worth of time before he can rinse and repeat. Not to mention that he delays the game long enough for his teammates to get itemized, this way. Oh and another thing. 1v1, Maar wins. Against anyone. Well, maybe not ling with taser, but other than that..... You need a good 3 people to bring him down late game. It's just not fair, what amount of pressure he can put, all the while not taking any risks. Its hard as hell to push even when he's turtling and not porting anywhere, and even if you win a teamfight, kill his teammates, and start a push even he can't neutralize with 2 spells (and a legendary push it must surely be, because damn it, the aoe damage and range on his spells is OP! It's like Rancor nukes, except with slightly smaller range and damage, but 50 times more of them!) he can just port to your base and start a base race (which he'll win, because respawn timer on his team gives you like 15 seconds of pushing power before they come and you spend at least a minute fighting them (most likely he'll kill the artifact faster than you kill his teammates a second time)

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its true... when maar has 1 hard dps in his team he can take 1 tower per ulti and you can't do anything against it....

even if you have 1 dude in the lane ( except jakk with remotes maybe) they will get the tower down with 1 warp of a creepwave...

 

So basicaly as soon as you leave the lane you loose a tower when you play against maar and that is op as flob

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its true... when maar has 1 hard dps in his team he can take 1 tower per ulti and you can't do anything against it....

even if you have 1 dude in the lane ( except jakk with remotes maybe) they will get the tower down with 1 warp of a creepwave...

 

So basicaly as soon as you leave the lane you loose a tower when you play against maar and that is op as flob

 

Maar can only get to T1 from base, so Maar port with an AA can't do all that much at level 6 unless the tower is low or you commit heavily to the push (bring more than just the AA). So mid game you either need to port on a tower taking creeps that are already in a lane (the enemy will be able to see you) or you need to port without creeps. Alternatively, you can try to time it as creeps run past you, but this is less reliable as people in pubs don't understand what you're trying to do and you can't always rely on your lane being pushed out far enough to not be seen porting. His Ult was nerfed significantly and can be countered well with intelligent play and 1-2 extra wards in the middle of the enemy's lane (so you have vision of where he would port from). I think it's fine at the moment, but I'd like to see it a bit more IH to cement that opinion.

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