Removed items?

[Rogue]

Just a couple of questions I need answering:

 

-Why was impact dial nerfed?

-Why can't argus be put back in but it gives +80 int and +10/15 spell damage for example, and return grav edge to +70 int.

-Why did they buff pyre so much?

-Why did Masamune get completely removed? - The weapon damage could have just been nerfed.

 

Theres probably some more questions I have - I'll update it asap.

 

Any answers to these questions would be appreciated.

[ginosaji]

Just a couple of questions I need answering:

 

-Why was impact dial nerfed?

-Why can't argus be put back in but it gives +80 int and +10/15 spell damage for example, and return grav edge to +70 int.

-Why did they buff pyre so much?

-Why did Masamune get completely removed? - The weapon damage could have just been nerfed.

 

Theres probably some more questions I have - I'll update it asap.

 

Any answers to these questions would be appreciated.

 

Dial: was nerfed mainly because Brine and Micro abusing it. Dial Micro still auto'ed and dil hasn't been changed since.

 

Argus: It would fulfill the same role as Gravity edge does currently, namely amplify spell damage. The reason it was removed is because every INT hero would get both Gravity Edge and Argus every game in every build before. Now they are just combined into one item. The balance of that item could be discussed, but I don't think reintroducing another spell amp item is the way to go.

 

Pyre: Got buffed because tank items and items in general got buffed. Armor is more abundant than it used to be, so pyre needs to offer more to account for that.

 

Masamune: No idea.

[Rogue]

So if dial was nerfed cus of brine and micro, why not nerf brine and micro? They need a small nerf anyway esp micro.

[Grantypoo]

Micro already received a small nerf recently, I'd hate to see him changed more so abruptly.

[ANARCHY]

Pyre: Got buffed because tank items and items in general got buffed. Armor is more abundant than it used to be, so pyre needs to offer more to account for that.

 

Masamune: No idea.

 

is that seriously the reason why pyre got buffed? this item / meta change still makes me sad every day

 

it used to be;

enemy stacks hp = buy pyre

enemy stacks armour = buy contam shard

 

now it seems

see enemy = buy pyre

 

the creativity and variety of builds in this game has gone severely down hill along with alot of the fun, almost all the great players of this game like whale, soed, david just to name a few have gone off to play other mobas because this 1 just isn't that exciting any more its the same game over and over like ground hog day

 

masamune had to be one of the funnest items in the game & it had a massive armour drawback, i dont see why it was ever disposed of it was fairly well balanced PLEASE bring back some items to promote creativity

and aggresors guise was great fun

and hand of mengsk change made me sad (IMO lethal barb should be made into the old hand of mengsk, there is way too much emphasis on wep speed in the crit section)

there is also a major overbearing on wep speed items, they should provide less wep speed but have more dmg / better unique

 

i think the only item i was ever happy that they removed was guardian steel because it was useless and new people didnt know any better

Edited November 26, 2013 by ANARCHY

[hbogyt]

Well the negative armor buff of Masamune was insignificant on agi heroes who stack agi or heroes with natural resist like Tychus or LZ.

[ginosaji]

is that seriously the reason why pyre got buffed? this item / meta change still makes me sad every day

 

it used to be;

enemy stacks hp = buy pyre

enemy stacks armour = buy contam shard

 

now it seems

see enemy = buy pyre

 

the creativity and variety of builds in this game has gone severely down hill along with alot of the fun, almost all the great players of this game like whale, soed, david just to name a few have gone off to play other mobas because this 1 just isn't that exciting any more its the same game over and over like ground hog day

 

masamune had to be one of the funnest items in the game & it had a massive armour drawback, i dont see why it was ever disposed of it was fairly well balanced PLEASE bring back some items to promote creativity

and aggresors guise was great fun

and hand of mengsk change made me sad (IMO lethal barb should be made into the old hand of mengsk, there is way too much emphasis on wep speed in the crit section)

there is also a major overbearing on wep speed items, they should provide less wep speed but have more dmg / better unique

 

i think the only item i was ever happy that they removed was guardian steel because it was useless and new people didnt know any better

 

I entirely disagree...

 

The item choices for AAs are much more diverse now than they were before. Guise was a terrible item, don't kid yourself.

 

Pyre should be carried by an off carry/semi-carry in the current meta. It's not a first choice for a hard carry as a weapon speed item. Most times you will need a pyre in your team comp because your hard carry won't be able to carry Contam effectively until late game. Bruisers can make use of Contam earlier in the game due to their survivability, but you get the idea.

 

The old Contam shard was much more op than either pyre or the new contam shard and made late game tanks less effective. It just dropped resist by 30% on effected target. You didn't even have to get your stacks up like you do now.

 

Three paths are now viable for AGI AAs; Pyre, AGI, and Crit. I think arcbound is still underpowered, which makes crit slightly less effective, but it still is in certain circumstances.

[Hogwarts]

Pyre is nerfed.......

 

It used to be % of max health, Now its % of current health

[GENLORDZ]

Pyre is nerfed.......

 

It used to be % of max health, Now its % of current health

Didnt realise:o

 

 

Back to the topic, masamune+phantom menace and other speed items make some heroes too fast): but it's pretty much an item to gamble since you're squisher against other dps's, but it counters Casters too much with the amount of weapon speed and time scale it gave, IMO

[ANARCHY]

yeah but there never used to be that many movement speed items

[Rogue]

Well the negative armor buff of Masamune was insignificant on agi heroes who stack agi or heroes with natural resist like Tychus or LZ.

thats why I say why don't they just nerf the weapon damage a lil bit so its like galactic defender but instead masamune gives move speed instead of shields.

[MrGrim]

Three paths are now viable for AGI AAs; Pyre, AGI, and Crit. I think arcbound is still underpowered, which makes crit slightly less effective, but it still is in certain circumstances.

 

Aren't there only two options, pyre and crit? Agi only augments either since most cohesive dps builds are either crit + stun knife or stun knife + pyre. I've rarely seen an item progression work that was pure agi and every time I try it falls flat on my face :/

[ANARCHY]

Aren't there only two options, pyre and crit? Agi only augments either since most cohesive dps builds are either crit + stun knife or stun knife + pyre. I've rarely seen an item progression work that was pure agi and every time I try it falls flat on my face :/

i think what gino was trying to say is there is;

pyre = spell dmg

crit

agi = wep dmg

 

but lets face it going wep dmg or crit is useless in this meta with all the armour items present, you might kill some squishies but that's generally more due to their bad placement, tanks & other carries will still have tons of resistance & should be tanking for the squishier casters

 

contamination shard is not that great unless you can repeatedly pound away at an enemy with no repercussion, because you wont get much lifesteal anymore either

[ginosaji]

i think what gino was trying to say is there is;

pyre = spell dmg

crit

agi = wep dmg

 

but lets face it going wep dmg or crit is useless in this meta with all the armour items present, you might kill some squishies but that's generally more due to their bad placement, tanks & other carries will still have tons of resistance & should be tanking for the squishier casters

 

contamination shard is not that great unless you can repeatedly pound away at an enemy with no repercussion, because you wont get much lifesteal anymore either

 

Not true, Weapon damage builds are the most viable build on hard carries, especially Nova and Darpa. It allows them to focus on weapon damage and speed, making them more effective against AAs/INT heroes mid game than if they would have gone pyre. You get a semi-carry/bruiser to carry pyre so your team has an anti-tank weapon mid game. Weapon damage builds are much more effective against AAs and INT. Even off-tanks usually don't get DST until late mid game because they usually get korhal/buffer, then some sort of damage/utility item. If it works out right, you can have Contam Shard early or mid late game, which means there's about 10-15 minutes, maybe twenty, where pyre isn't that effective anymore and your hard carry doesn't have Shard yet.

 

If your team has no off carry, your hard carry has to go pyre to deal with mid game tanks, which makes them less effective against AA and INT heroes.

 

Shard was changed from it's old OP state to make it so tanks could actually tank. This means you have to focus down other AGIs and INT heroes as your team's carry. You should already be doing that in the first place. By the time you need Shard, you should have already targeted down a 1-2 key AA/INT heroes, giving you the time to get your stacks up on the enemy tank. It also helps if the enemy tank gets drastically out of position and stun locked.

 

I enjoy having these classes more distinct than they were in the past, it makes the game more complex and fun.

 

TL;DR

 

Tanks can actually tank

AAs have to decide what path to go down.

 

Edit: By weapon damage/AGI build I mean that you build AGI for your main source of weapon speed (other than timesplitter).

Edited November 27, 2013 by ginosaji

[MrGrim]

Not true, Weapon damage builds are the most viable build on hard carries..

 

I have to disagree with you there. I'm not a very good carry so I'll defer to those guys who are. In the most recent tourney all of slp's carries went for the same stun - pulse -pyre build when they used carries like Darpa and nova and on boros they went crit/wep damage. It may have been part of their strategy to get pyre to dominate mid game to win out right rather than take it late but regardless of that there are few items in the agi tree to get wep speed to properly utilize wep damage that organically fit into builds. Shinobi is extremely useful on some but really situational for nova/darpa and unless you have int opponents sliptide as well is extremely situational and HoM is a late game split push, come from behind type item.

[ginosaji]

I have to disagree with you there. I'm not a very good carry so I'll defer to those guys who are. In the most recent tourney all of slp's carries went for the same stun - pulse -pyre build when they used carries like Darpa and nova and on boros they went crit/wep damage. It may have been part of their strategy to get pyre to dominate mid game to win out right rather than take it late but regardless of that there are few items in the agi tree to get wep speed to properly utilize wep damage that organically fit into builds. Shinobi is extremely useful on some but really situational for nova/darpa and unless you have int opponents sliptide as well is extremely situational and HoM is a late game split push, come from behind type item.

 

I get Shinobi on Darpa in every game, it's the best item on him aside from TS.

 

I haven't watched the replays, but every scenarios is different. If you don't have another pyre carrier, your hard carry obviously needs a pyre. If they have 3+ STR heroes sometimes it's more viable to go pyre on a hard carry. It all depends on the team comps. Generally, in an ideal scenario, a semi-carry goes pyre mid game so the hard carry can be more effective later. That said, it takes along time to finish off your weapon speed after TS on an AGI weapon speed build. An early chilling really hurst AGI weapon speed builds, so sometimes you need a pyre just to get your speed back up.