More Powerful Consumables

[Doom]

In the past, we had the good ol' warp fragment, a one-use 7 unit blink that cost 75 minerals. It was very strong, but also a bit of a gamble, as you would lose 75 minerals for nothing if you failed to get the kill. Needless to say, that it was way too cheap, and if such a thing were implemented now, it would need to be closer to ~300 minerals to be balanced. It was one of the main things that made v3 so fun: ability to quickly and unexpectedly get close to someone and fire off your combo.

 

However, my suggestion doesn't stop at "bring back warp fragment". I'm suggesting a whole new line of consumables that add a bit more risk/reward into the game, something I feel it sadly lacks, as the current meta is to bring in as much AoE support, both items and heroes, and make sure everything below 2.5 K hp is standing behind a huge wall of 8+ K hp in the form of several tanks.

 

Some ideas:

 

-Warp frag is one. Say 225 minerals a pop, 7 unit blink, cannot be used unless haven't taken damage in last 3 seconds.

 

-Spider Mine - like consumable, costs 70 minerals, deals 40 + 25*level to first unit to come close enough. Can fit up to 3 per item slot

 

-Sight Range Extender, increases unit vision by 4, costs 250 minerals, lasts 5 mins

 

-1.5 second damage immunity, 475 mineral cost

 

- gain additional 15% time for 12 seconds, 200 mineral cost

 

-Stun target enemy for 1 second, 200 minerals, shared cooldown both on user and target (meaning can only this type of consumable on one enemy, and same enemy cannot be similarily stuned by allies for x seconds)

 

 

These are just a few I came up with quickly. By making more such consumables, you can make people hold off on the expensive t3 items for a bit longer, not to mention make the early game more exciting and skill-based.

[GENLORDZ]

I like the ideas, imagine Micro, having warp frag, impact doal, warp shard and his own warp, about 20 units gone long ahead of you lol

[Adversary]

I like the ideas, imagine Micro, having warp frag, impact doal, warp shard and his own warp, about 20 units gone long ahead of you lol

Except his team would be 20 units behind him and he wouldn't put out enough damage to do anything

[ScrubHaven]

Except his team would be 20 units behind him and he wouldn't put out enough damage to do anything

 

WIth Atom Smasher, Grav is somewhat scary to non-tanks.

[MOTHER]

Warp Fragment might be OP in the hands of some heroes. The sight extender too.

 

But in general though, I'm a fan of consumables and I think it is an items venue that needs to be explored more. In particular, I like utilities, like mines, drones, wards etc. But there is a thin line that must not be crossed, otherwise you can have a consumable that mirrors pretty much any hero ability. I think consumables need to be limited to utilities for the most part. Warp Fragments for example may cross that line because of their offensive/defensive implications, which are more pronounced than say a Transport consumable.

 

I like bear trap mines as a consumable. Consumable traps that you place on the map that will root the first enemy heroic unit that walks over them and alert your team that they caught something. They do no damage, only root. Minions which are classified as heroic units thus are able to trigger them can be used to counter them.

 

I once proposed the idea of a buyback consumable, that is to be purchased and consumed before dying, the consequence of which is instant respawning at the base. Limited to one stock per player per match or 3 stocks per team per match.

 

Other consumable options are Reinforcements and Structure Shields. The former which can help in pushes and counter pushes and latter mainly for counter pushing and anti-backdooring. Both of which are available in limited quantity and take time to be restocked.

[heimdallr]

while I don`t exactly back up the item suggestions per se I DO agree with more powerfull consumables. As it is now their uses are scarce. Why would you pay for something that goes away eventually if you could do better getting a permanent item for example. Yes, there are smoke bombs that help early game vs certain situations that could make you die. So are wards, considering they are cheap for sight and a bit more expensive in exchange of not having to buy ts elixir and dying to lose it. There is where ts wards come in. Good price too for the long duration. But the potions?

 

The 3 potions are a thing you most of the time buy just to "max out" for true after you max out on gear. The tea gives some minor str and the % of damage reduction is nice but really gets better only as enemy damage scales up.....that means endgame right?. The int potion gives minor int and some cooldown reduction. For that much int id rather buy a pendant and it also gives HP and energy regen. Also I can sell it later to get half cash back and until I sell it its effects won`t wear off. The agi potion similarly adds marginal agility and basically combat buffs that ARE kinda noticed early game as well as late game, but as it is now carries would rather buy their first endgame item faster for the uniques and procs on hit. You cant beat that witha potion that will eventually wear off.

 

My thoughts? More consumables variety to spice up early-mid game. Consumables with more powerfull effects. Either more powerfull stats(since they wear off eventually you`d be paying less for more, but knowing it will eventually wear off) or battle changing abilities. Like the op post suggests. A bit of a gamble. You get to use it ONCE and you either fail or you get it right and it has a meaning (you get a kill or save a partner from a deadly situation) so the pay was worth it. That`s why smoke bomb shines. Paying for a smoke bomb compared to feeding enemies 5 times that much minerals is good(as long as the use of the bomb does save you that is). The actual 3 potions for endgame are kinda boring since by then every maxed char will buy the 3 of them regardless of whatever. Consumable items are better IMO early game when the minerals are scarce due to low farming potential and not much full team fights going on. Then having to choose to DELAY a permanent item for a consumable temporary effect should come with a possible benefit. Since the effects are not permanent they should be better, and not better like the 3 potions you buy for endgame, but better so much better that they are worth buying early on depending on your character and what you can do. Not this 3 potions regardless situation and only for endgame kind of thing.

 

 

EDIT: an idea I just thought after some games. Health potion and energy potion....hmmmm.....not so good...specially since there are more energy and life regen items for early lane sustain...

fix: new health and energy potions give you more MAX life and energy capacity for say 10 minutes(just random time)...not sure if said upgrades should be stackable....BINGO....now you can for example start with a treasure and with the early creep kill minerals buy like 2 health potions and 1 energy one for example and get (I`m inventing here) a total of 250 life and 125 energy max pool for 10 minutes, giving you more lane sustain and with tresure energy and life regen you will rarely die or have to go to pool just cause you got vs raynor and rancor sniping combo.

 

looking at op post again I kinda like the spier mine idea. Could be tweaked though. Since meta is so based on farming for carries this could easily be bought in large quantities and put near creeps or near paths enemies could follow to support a gank to disuade them once they ge tblown their faces. Not sure if mines would be bgood to have marginal vision or not, but it`d still make a focus on countering them to get truesight wards near camps if you suspect them.

Edited November 23, 2013 by heimdallr

[Moo]

while I don`t exactly back up the item suggestions per se I DO agree with more powerfull consumables. As it is now their uses are scarce. Why would you pay for something that goes away eventually if you could do better getting a permanent item for example. Yes, there are smoke bombs that help early game vs certain situations that could make you die. So are wards, considering they are cheap for sight and a bit more expensive in exchange of not having to buy ts elixir and dying to lose it. There is where ts wards come in. Good price too for the long duration. But the potions?

 

The 3 potions are a thing you most of the time buy just to "max out" for true after you max out on gear. The tea gives some minor str and the % of damage reduction is nice but really gets better only as enemy damage scales up.....that means endgame right?. The int potion gives minor int and some cooldown reduction. For that much int id rather buy a pendant and it also gives HP and energy regen. Also I can sell it later to get half cash back and until I sell it its effects won`t wear off. The agi potion similarly adds marginal agility and basically combat buffs that ARE kinda noticed early game as well as late game, but as it is now carries would rather buy their first endgame item faster for the uniques and procs on hit. You cant beat that witha potion that will eventually wear off.

 

My thoughts? More consumables variety to spice up early-mid game. Consumables with more powerfull effects. Either more powerfull stats(since they wear off eventually you`d be paying less for more, but knowing it will eventually wear off) or battle changing abilities. Like the op post suggests. A bit of a gamble. You get to use it ONCE and you either fail or you get it right and it has a meaning (you get a kill or save a partner from a deadly situation) so the pay was worth it. That`s why smoke bomb shines. Paying for a smoke bomb compared to feeding enemies 5 times that much minerals is good(as long as the use of the bomb does save you that is). The actual 3 potions for endgame are kinda boring since by then every maxed char will buy the 3 of them regardless of whatever. Consumable items are better IMO early game when the minerals are scarce due to low farming potential and not much full team fights going on. Then having to choose to DELAY a permanent item for a consumable temporary effect should come with a possible benefit. Since the effects are not permanent they should be better, and not better like the 3 potions you buy for endgame, but better so much better that they are worth buying early on depending on your character and what you can do. Not this 3 potions regardless situation and only for endgame kind of thing.

 

 

EDIT: an idea I just thought after some games. Health potion and energy potion....hmmmm.....not so good...specially since there are more energy and life regen items for early lane sustain...

fix: new health and energy potions give you more MAX life and energy capacity for say 10 minutes(just random time)...not sure if said upgrades should be stackable....BINGO....now you can for example start with a treasure and with the early creep kill minerals buy like 2 health potions and 1 energy one for example and get (I`m inventing here) a total of 250 life and 125 energy max pool for 10 minutes, giving you more lane sustain and with tresure energy and life regen you will rarely die or have to go to pool just cause you got vs raynor and rancor sniping combo.

 

looking at op post again I kinda like the spier mine idea. Could be tweaked though. Since meta is so based on farming for carries this could easily be bought in large quantities and put near creeps or near paths enemies could follow to support a gank to disuade them once they ge tblown their faces. Not sure if mines would be bgood to have marginal vision or not, but it`d still make a focus on countering them to get truesight wards near camps if you suspect them.

The agi and str potions are extremely strong IMO, especially for their price. I get the str potion whenever I have some extra minerals after buying an item on most heroes, I actually think it is a bit too strong. The agi potion is very good too, just not as good as the str one and I think it should be kept the same. The int potion is really the only one I don't get until max item builds except on heroes where cdr is very important.

[heimdallr]

The agi and str potions are extremely strong IMO, especially for their price. I get the str potion whenever I have some extra minerals after buying an item on most heroes, I actually think it is a bit too strong. The agi potion is very good too, just not as good as the str one and I think it should be kept the same. The int potion is really the only one I don't get until max item builds except on heroes where cdr is very important.

 

I`m not saying they are completely useless, but for the duration I think they should do more or bring something more unique that you don`t get from early gear. Str potion is the best as you mentioned. Not for the strenght, cause any permanent strenght gear will eventually be better priced as it builds into other stuff and gives ton of str, but cause while its in effect you get reduced 10% damage physical and spell. Early on there is like NO way you could get life, armor and spell resist for sucha cheap price so I kinda grant that the str potion can be usefull if you feel you are about to get your a s s handed back to you. However the other two potions don`'t really give something price worthy. And specially the int potion. Early on the characters that would benefit of cdr can`t spam said abilities too often due to energy shortage. Also the cdr is not that much and remember it will wear off after 10 minutes.

 

You know what else reminds me the 10 minute mark? That I`d rather buy a faster ihan and in 10 minutes sell it for a PERMANENT charges boost of life and int.

 

With the new gear(I mean after the new items patch) you basically can buy everything good about a potion for cheaper than before. Attack speed for 600 and something, life for 475, str go get a buckler or whatever, agility you can buy too...the 10% resist is roughly equal to 10% spell resist AND 3 armor...now THIS is kinda good for a potion....kinda...maybe buff it to 20%? (equivalent to 20% spell resist and 7 armor) and then we are talking buisness. For the agi potion I`d like to keep the agi but change the other effect to something more unique (maybe chance to evade attacks AND spells? with internal cooldown maybe). For the intel potion I`d rather change the 10% CDR to TIMESCALE. That way it would make your cdr faster, move faster, etc. Maybe lower it to 5% timescale plus 5% Cdr???

 

This kind of changes would make the potions not only realy viable but something that you would WANT to keep buying at least while you need the special effects.

Edited November 25, 2013 by heimdallr

[Moo]

I don't think you understand completely. The strength potion gives 180 hp, 10% flat physical and spell resistance that is not affected by the diminishing returns (I think) for a measly 250 minerals, which is slightly ridiculous IMO, it absolutely doesn't need a buff. The agi potion is very powerful, it allows many heroes to hit the attack speed cap earlier than normal, which is a huge increase in dps, and gives an extra 10% weapon damage, which is huge scaling for something that takes up no item slots. I do think that the int potion should be buffed, but the only reason I think that is that it isn't as good as the other two potions, so I think they should all be on an even playing field.

[FruitNinja]

I don't think you understand completely. The strength potion gives 180 hp, 10% flat physical and spell resistance that is not affected by the diminishing returns

 

There are no diminishing returns, it's just multiplicative stacking (It IS diminishing returns if you count additive stacking as the norm. However then you could become invincible with enough resistance, which is infinitely better than not being invincible, so I would consider additive scaling a form of increasing returns, much like how CDR in LoL is more powerful the more you have). Spell resist and armor work the same way though. They're no different.

 

I agree with Moo's thoughts on strength potions, the strength potion is highly desirable due to its long duration and stats that are great on everyone. The other two are pretty situational imo until later in the game unless you are rancor, in which case the AGI potion is a very strong start due to the +9 weapon damage.

[ShadowFlame]

I'm confused, if there is any item that gives flat resistance, can you not get over 100 percent resistance (sure its hard, but many tanks get 80 percent or more, just use fortify and the consumable)?

Edited November 26, 2013 by ShadowFlame

[Mus]

Diminishing returns means it is impossible to get 100% damage resistance.

 

No item gives a flat increase in damage resistance, because if it did then you could attain the impossible 100%. Everything to do with damage resistance stacks with diminishing returns.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Mus

[FruitNinja]

It is also not feasable to do it in the engine as far as I know. Resistances always apply to the amount of damage you are taking after the other resistances have been calculated. It's not really diminishing returns, though. People are misusing the term.

[Mus]

It is also not feasable to do it in the engine as far as I know. Resistances always apply to the amount of damage you are taking after the other resistances have been calculated. It's not really diminishing returns, though. People are misusing the term.

 

The order of calculations is irrelevant because all resistances are being multiplied, and multiplication is commutative. So if you calculate resistance due to Fortify then STR pot, and compare it to the resistance due to STR pot then Fortify you will get the same result.

 

If you were to throw in an additive stacking resistance it should be calculated at the end, after all of the multiplications have been completed. I think this is similar to how DST works, the flat damage reduction is applied after damage mitigation.

 

 

And actually it is diminishing returns, as far as I can see.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Mus

[FruitNinja]

Just run the calculations and you'll notice that stacking resistances always gives exponentially increasing effects the more you have. So basically, the 10 percent from the strength pot will always make you 10 percent less damage than you are currently taking, giving you the same amount of tankiness (percentage wise) regardless of how many resistances you already have. The damage pot and cdr pot work off of additive stacking, on the other hand.

 

A true example of diminishing returns (a term borrowed from economics mind you) would be a spell that does less damage to the same target when spammed or a system where training one attribute in an RPG gives you less points in it. Percentage stacking and additive stacking are just different types of stacking.

[Mus]

I see what you mean now.

 

If you consider the damage taken, then the stacking of resistances isn't diminishing at all.

 

But if you consider the amount of net resistance you have, then that does increase with diminishing returns.

 

 

 

I'll explain what I mean in the spoiler.

 

 

 

 

First I have to define some quantities.

 

Incoming damage: d

Actual damage taken: d'

Resistances: {y_i} = {y_1, ..., y_n} where for example y_k = 20%

Resistance factors: {x_i} = {x_1, ..., x_n} where x_i = 1 - (y_i)/100 so following the above example, x_k = 0.8

Resistance: r where r could be, for example, 65%

 

 

 

Therefore, d' = d*product(x_i)

 

And it's clear now that the actual damage taken is not affected by diminishing returns. This is what you were saying, and I agree.

 

But,

 

r = 100*(1 - product(x_i))

 

and this is affected by diminishing returns.

 

A specific example:

 

Assume you have an item which grants +20% resist, and this is the only resistance source you have. So y_1 = 20%

 

Then r = 20%

 

Now assume that you purchase another item which grants +40% resist. So y_2 = 40%

 

Now r = 52%

 

So the +40% only added 32 percentage points to the resistance, not 40. This is what I mean by diminishing returns.

 

So we were talking about different quantities (d' and r).

 

 

 

[FruitNinja]

Well, to avoid further derailing the thread, I want to make the point that the STR potion is desirable for all heroes (especially STR heroes) whereas the AGI potion is only really good for carries until 6 items and the INT potion just isn't that useful compared to the other two. This is because the STR potion makes you significantly tankier (11.11% more damage needed to kill you no matter what) and gives a chunk of hp for a very small cost (18 STR alone is worth around ~800), whereas the AGI potion gives strictly multiplicative stats for non-AGI heroes and the INT potion counteracts itself (INT gives mana, CDR lets you burn the mana faster). What I would suggest is changing it around so that they aren't stat based (so that they are better on different heroes) and give them unique situational effects. (maybe a slow on attack for a carry moving into mid game to help with kiting, or bonus spell damage on hit that scales with int for lategame INT/Attack speed heroes).

 

Also, a potion that makes you tankier is just all-around not good for the game, as everyone likes defensive stats, even glass cannons, when it costs so little. It just makes a mineral advantage more powerful.

Edited November 26, 2013 by FruitNinja

[Moo]

Well, to avoid further derailing the thread, I want to make the point that the STR potion is desirable for all heroes (especially STR heroes) whereas the AGI potion is only really good for carries until 6 items and the INT potion just isn't that useful compared to the other two. This is because the STR potion makes you significantly tankier (11.11% more damage needed to kill you no matter what) and gives a chunk of hp for a very small cost (18 STR alone is worth around ~800), whereas the AGI potion gives strictly multiplicative stats for non-AGI heroes and the INT potion counteracts itself (INT gives mana, CDR lets you burn the mana faster). What I would suggest is changing it around so that they aren't stat based (so that they are better on different heroes) and give them unique situational effects. (maybe a slow on attack for a carry moving into mid game to help with kiting, or bonus spell damage on hit that scales with int for lategame INT/Attack speed heroes).

 

Also, a potion that makes you tankier is just all-around not good for the game, as everyone likes defensive stats, even glass cannons, when it costs so little. It just makes a mineral advantage more powerful.

I agree. Now that I am thinking about it, the strength potion should probably be nerfed slightly, and the agi and int potions buffed slightly, I am going to post a topic in the balance section.

[DeMolitionNR]

I like these ideas. I like rancor and more consumables would help alot with half price :-D