The deny mechanics and "exp"

[Lios]

So, how much exp one melee creep / ranged creep provide ? How much exp will my opponent get after I deny ? And is it possible to sap exp from neutral which the other team killed but I participate in the progess ( like aa one or throw a skill shot ) ? How far is the "exp zone" :/ ?

[Indo]

if you last hit neutral, your team gets xp, if you denie a creep and the enemie hero is close, he gets full xp

[Lios]

if you last hit neutral, your team gets xp, if you denie a creep and the enemie hero is close, he gets full xp

 

So what's the point of deny, I thought deny reduce amount of exp the opponent receive :/... Just zone him out from last hit is better

[John]

So what's the point of deny, I thought deny reduce amount of exp the opponent receive :/... Just zone him out from last hit is better

zone out works fine, but eventually ull push forward if u dont deny.

 

got 2 miss those 1 vs 1 battles where u denied 100% of creep xp

Edited November 23, 2013 by John

[ANARCHY]

it would be really helpful if the complete mechanics behind EXP and denying were added to the game mechanics section of this forum, it is somewhat an unknown topic except for those that have been around for a very long time

[WhitetrasH]

OMG OMG OMG OMG... i just realised that the devs actually did do some sort of balancing for pubs!!! O.O

 

Even if by chance you got a "pro" laning against you, you would still gain exp if you were/are close enough to recieve, regardless of wether or not the creep was denied or not... be greatful nubs & never say the dev don't balance for pubs! :P

 

But seriously... why not decrease the exp gained from a deny from 100% to say 65/70%, that way the team that was denied a creep will still earn exp, but not at the rate the ones denying are, leaving them behind in exp but only marginally?

 

Oh but i remember now... all the cries of broken & unfair will come pouring in again because pubs will snowball pretty badly.

[ANARCHY]

OMG OMG OMG OMG... i just realised that the devs actually did do some sort of balancing for pubs!!! O.O

 

Even if by chance you got a "pro" laning against you, you would still gain exp if you were/are close enough to recieve, regardless of wether or not the creep was denied or not... be greatful nubs & never say the dev don't balance for pubs! :P

 

But seriously... why not decrease the exp gained from a deny from 100% to say 65/70%, that way the team that was denied a creep will still earn exp, but not at the rate the ones denying are, leaving them behind in exp but only marginally?

 

Oh but i remember now... all the cries of broken & unfair will come pouring in again because pubs will snowball pretty badly.

i whole heartedly agree this is stupid, why in the world did they enable exp for denies

isnt it already bad enough that jungle creep exp & money was boosted, but on top of that agi carries are able to farm jungle so easy now due to the item changes like culling saber

 

it doesnt even seem to matter if you lane or not without these mechanics besides stopping your tower dying, denying creep is pointless as they just get the exp anyway

 

it has turned into a game of who can farm the fastest and be absolutely useless to their team for half the game, hope they dont feed and just come to KS and possibly carry hard mid - late game so they can try and rampage into 5 enemy heroes and get a LUDA kill

this is the basic summary of 90% of pub players & generally they will play nova, shadow, zeratool, darpa, boros, ling, grunty

Edited November 23, 2013 by ANARCHY

[EterNity]

A common misunderstanding will be the person who solo mid will gain twice more exp than the duo lane; however, it is not true.

 

The person who's soloing a lane gain roughly 50% more exp per wave than the duel lane.

 

Thor gives more exp than Tank and Firebat is last.

 

Denying a creep will deny 60% of exp gained by enemy team and the possibility of gaining cash.

 

Ranged creeps give roughly 25% less exp and cash compare to melee creeps.

 

Killing Aeon, Levi, or towers will globally give exp to the killing team.

 

 

By denying creeps, you stop enemies from gaining equal amount of exp and no cash.

 

By denying creeps, you slow the pushing caused by killing enemy creeps.

 

If you do not deny creeps, you will push the wave forward and away from your towers and eventually into enemy's tower range.

[Spooky]

Wait, since when denying creeps doesn't reduce amount of XP gained by enemy? As far as I know it was changed long time ago from 100% denied experience into 40% denied experience. And that was already stupid change, it shouldn't be less than 60%. And now u telling me it doesn't deny experience at all?

[Highlife]

Making deny reduce xp 100% would be absolutely stupid. That would make some characters NEVER be played since some are exponentially harder to last hit than others, i.e. Nova vs Egon.

[Indo]

how about giving xp for a denie to make people do it more often in pubs? It would encourage players to do so and might make more new players to try inh

[Figgonson]

how about giving xp for a denie to make people do it more often in pubs? It would encourage players to do so and might make more new players to try inh

 

For those of us who have been around long enough to have become good at last hitting and denying, this would be too op. I could see a game where one lane is severely underleveled. That would essentially put the creeps mechanics as largely in favor of the pros as ever.

[Indo]

For those of us who have been around long enough to have become good at last hitting and denying, this would be too op. I could see a game where one lane is severely underleveled. That would essentially put the creeps mechanics as largely in favor of the pros as ever.

 

so people that are denieing shouldn't really be rewarded?

[Figgonson]

so people that are denieing shouldn't really be rewarded?

 

No, I just think that is too big of a reward.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Figgonson

[Indo]

it reduces the xp gained by near enemie heroes by what? 40%? why not give this 40% to the one denieing

[EterNity]

For those that's not here long enough, denies used to deny 100% of the experience gain but that's way back in the old 4.0 days when the game had a way greater learning-curves and before the game is in its more casual states now.

 

In the effort to make the game more friendly for casual players, it was changed so the skilled players do not gain an overwhelmingly advantage over casual players.

[Spooky]

it was changed to what state exactly?

[Lios]

Would love to have something rewarding with deny stuff like dota...

[EterNity]

You are rewarded with poor enemies (no creep kills) and lowered level (60% less experience) enemies just like DotA with less severity.

 

However, the effectiveness of deny is less noticeable in public games as almost no one ward enemy jungles or attempt to prevent enemy from farming in jungle.

 

An experienced pubber will turn to jungle farming for exp and money since you dont have to worry about enemy denying nor teammate taking your creep kills.

[Hanedog]

Haha, just thinking out of the box here but why not give the maximum health of the denied creep back to the remaining creeps OR removed that health equally from all opposing lane creeps. Deny just doesn't seem to do much these days as typically there is 2 heroes in a lane and one is usually decent at harassing enemy hero while other can spell down the creep wave.

 

Granted, doing this in IH is much more difficult as both sets of heroes are typically knowledgable in how to kite and deny, making it harder to effectively out-deny your opponent.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Hanedog

[Spooky]

Deny still is noticeable but only when u are able to deny almost entire creep wave - for example when u are playing Tosh then its possible. Once in 1v1 lane I had lvl 10 when enemy had lvl 6. However keeping enemy far away from creep wave is the most efficient. This way u can deny 100% of creep experience

[Lios]

Deny still is noticeable but only when u are able to deny almost entire creep wave - for example when u are playing Tosh then its possible. Once in 1v1 lane I had lvl 10 when enemy had lvl 6. However keeping enemy far away from creep wave is the most efficient. This way u can deny 100% of creep experience

 

Hard in 1v1 as you will get creep argo if you aa them. In dota it was so fun as huskar when you just w on people and it doesn't count as aa :D ( Not sure if spectre attack get creep argo or not )

[Hogwarts]

i agree that with the carrier swarm worm in the lanes every 4 waves it becomes hard to harass your opponent. When those units come it really degrades game play cause all you really can do is be passive and last hit. Also the carriers and worm can be physical body blocked / pushed back. to stack them for the next wave. Its literally like having a extra hero in your lane. They are probably my least favorite mechanic of this current version.

[BestPlayer]

Hard in 1v1 as you will get creep argo if you aa them. In dota it was so fun as huskar when you just w on people and it doesn't count as aa :D ( Not sure if spectre attack get creep argo or not )

 

Orb walking is DotA does not aggro creep, such as with Huskar. Spectre, however, is neither ranged nor has an orb and thus cannot orb walk.

[Lios]

 

 

Orb walking is DotA does not aggro creep, such as with Huskar. Spectre, however, is neither ranged nor has an orb and thus cannot orb walk.

 

I mean tosh's spectre in Aos :/