Zera & Shadow reduce the game

[ComeAtMeBro]

Just to start off, I am not saying either is overpowered on an individual level - my argument is that;

 

They take more form the experiance of the game than they give back.

 

In pubs, zera and shadow feature an average gamplay of around 75% each (i.e the chances that one or more of said heros will feature in any given team) I would argue from an empirical scientific standpoint, that is enough to indicate a strong possability that they are too easy to play well. Surely any one hero being played that much suggests an issue, in a game of 50 heros.

 

The negative effects of normal skill level players having to deal with the threat of shadow/zera overshadows teamwork in many pub games. In a typical pub game with 1-2 drops and a bit of lag, a shadow will with 2-3 keystrokes directly kill...75% of players? and with a defense that renders anyone except Spell Damage AOE tanks useless.

 

I would like to see a trial, where shadow is removed for a month, maybe in a seperate mode of AOS (not sure if it's possible). I believe this would have a net positive effect on gameplay. Not becuase he is overpowered, but because he has a negative influence on the gameplay. Obviously when playing premade or with friends it's different.

 

Personally, i'm bored of tabbing to an opponents team and it seems like at least 25% of games end up with 1 or 2 decent players trying to deal with a fed shadow/zera.

 

I now welcome your comments of 'l2play against him' & general harrasment. I'm not a pro player by any stretch, but I am probably about the mid point that reflects the average long term AOE players skill level.

[atomheartman]

I cant agree for 100% about Shady and Zera. i think the hero that ruins the game is Nova. - don't you remember when Nova buys Lethal and engage - she don't even need to use skills - just AA FTW. Anyway the idea for a-click or "press R to kill" heroes is good for newbies but seeing how easly these heroes kills triple at a time makes me cry.

And i agree when you play underplayed heroes and all the rest picks zera shady nova boros and micro and you think: "oh god, another silly game" where wins the one who will make r-click faster.

Edited November 19, 2013 by atomheartman

[mynhauzen]

Second thread about zeratul in a row?

 

In fact I believe both make this game better. Why? Because both's role is to punish people's weaknesses. Zeratul is one of the hardest hero in the pool, and shadow is one of the easiest. But both actually make you ward the map, both make u want to look at the map. Both requires you to stop walking on your own and start to actually play together as a team. Once you do that, zera becomes useless and shadow becomes a threat in backdooring. But it also helps you to actually keep one player next to the base which requires a better team play.

 

Both make teamplay of the opposing team better. Whats bad about that?

[ShadowFlame]

I agree that each hero is pretty easy, and very powerful with little skill, though zeratul's planar takes skill to use WELL. However, you can be good without using it very well....

Edited November 19, 2013 by ShadowFlame

[ginosaji]

The reasons shadow and zera are over played

1. They are AAs, they are supposed to kill. Every new player just wants to rack up kills, they don't care about anything else.
   
2. They can feed off bad players more effectively than many other heroes
   
3. They have a "cool" factor that every new player is looking for. Most people just randomly pick a hero at the beginning, you think they are going to pick a dorky goon like Rory, egon, etc or a cool shadow dark templar?
   

Reason 1 can't be helped, people will always trend toward the AAs, it's the nature of Mobas.

 

Reason 2 can't be helped without significantly reworking the heroes and ruining them as gankers or by unbalancing them toward pubs/in houses.

 

Reason 3? I don't know, make them less cool/ B/A?

[Mus]

This is why I play Cow in pubs. He crushes any Zera or Shadow with ease. Plus nobody buys support items so his damage is hardly being mitigated.

[ShadowFlame]

The reasons shadow and zera are over played

1. They are AAs, they are supposed to kill. Every new player just wants to rack up kills, they don't care about anything else.
   
2. They can feed off bad players more effectively than many other heroes
   
3. They have a "cool" factor that every new player is looking for. Most people just randomly pick a hero at the beginning, you think they are going to pick a dorky goon like Rory, egon, etc or a cool shadow dark templar?
   

Reason 1 can't be helped, people will always trend toward the AAs, it's the nature of Mobas.

 

Reason 2 can't be helped without significantly reworking the heroes and ruining them as gankers or by unbalancing them toward pubs/in houses.

 

Reason 3? I don't know, make them less cool/ B/A?

I agree in general btw^^

I think one of my main pet peeves is Zeratul's ultimate. Its the ultimate fun killing ability. There is no defense, and you usually die unless you are the correct hero. Also, Zeratul's Q with timesplitter and BHM can kill weaker heros at half health in 1 hit, so he just swoops around getting a monster kill untargetable every teamfight. Shadow just seems to easy to play in general, I don't have a specific thing about him. He is counterable by the right items, at least.

 

Make them dorky! YES! Give Zeratul a lab coat :P.

Edited November 19, 2013 by ShadowFlame

[Ancientmagicks]

I cant agree for 100% about Shady and Zera. i think the hero that ruins the game is Nova. - don't you remember when Nova buys Lethal and engage - she don't even need to use skills - just AA FTW. Anyway the idea for a-click or "press R to kill" heroes is good for newbies but seeing how easly these heroes kills triple at a time makes me cry.

And i agree when you play underplayed heroes and all the rest picks zera shady nova boros and micro and you think: "oh god, another silly game" where wins the one who will make r-click faster.

I agree. However, My experience is that most times if your decent with the higher skill cap heroes you can normally make cake out of pub faves like shade zera or boros.

[Lios]

The reasons shadow and zera are over played

1. They are AAs, they are supposed to kill. Every new player just wants to rack up kills, they don't care about anything else.
   
2. They can feed off bad players more effectively than many other heroes
   
3. They have a "cool" factor that every new player is looking for. Most people just randomly pick a hero at the beginning, you think they are going to pick a dorky goon like Rory, egon, etc or a cool shadow dark templar?
   

Reason 1 can't be helped, people will always trend toward the AAs, it's the nature of Mobas.

 

Reason 2 can't be helped without significantly reworking the heroes and ruining them as gankers or by unbalancing them toward pubs/in houses.

 

Reason 3? I don't know, make them less cool/ B/A?

 

I'm pretty sure vergil look pretty sexy, so is Cain's voice/speech and Maar's tentacles

[Ancientmagicks]

The reasons shadow and zera are over played

1. They are AAs, they are supposed to kill. Every new player just wants to rack up kills, they don't care about anything else.
   
2. They can feed off bad players more effectively than many other heroes
   
3. They have a "cool" factor that every new player is looking for. Most people just randomly pick a hero at the beginning, you think they are going to pick a dorky goon like Rory, egon, etc or a cool shadow dark templar?
   

Reason 1 can't be helped, people will always trend toward the AAs, it's the nature of Mobas.

 

Reason 2 can't be helped without significantly reworking the heroes and ruining them as gankers or by unbalancing them toward pubs/in houses.

 

Reason 3? I don't know, make them less cool/ B/A?

 

I blame LOL master yi and all his ridiculousness.

[Yaldi]

Pentos op and looks cool remove him too plz

[Lios]

 

 

I blame LOL master yi and all his ridiculousness.

 

I blame people stupid and don't want to play tanks

[highdrater]

Excuse me if I'm being insulting, but there is nothing scientific with qualitative statements. What you could actually prove is that some characters game time in pubs are statistically different from other characters. What you could theorize is that shadow is one of the most commonly played characters in public games. In addition shadow in general can do decently in public games since melee heroes most important counter (teamwork) is a bit lacking.

 

What you need to realize is that any DPS carry or burst semi-carry can dominate a pub. Whether it's Darpa, Nova, Shadow, Crackling, Zera, Boros or even heroes like Tass, they can all make a game feel ruined.

 

So the real question to be answered for this post.. Is the frequency of play proportional to how strong a hero is? The answer is that it's not directly proportional in public play since the current actual strongest heroes are queen, immortal, Dustin, null, micro, drake, and mk... All underplayed heroes in public play.

 

I suggest rethinking your builds and gameplay vs shadow and Zera if they are really that frustrating to deal with. They are quote ganking heroes, and ganking heroes are always fun to play.

[Allstar]

Reason 3? I don't know, make them less cool/ B/A?

 

RIP Egon.Stetmann.

[Yaldi]

Excuse me if I'm being insulting, but there is nothing scientific with qualitative statements. What you could actually prove is that some characters game time in pubs are statistically different from other characters. What you could theorize is that shadow is one of the most commonly played characters in public games. In addition shadow in general can do decently in public games since melee heroes most important counter (teamwork) is a bit lacking.

 

What you need to realize is that any DPS carry or burst semi-carry can dominate a pub. Whether it's Darpa, Nova, Shadow, Crackling, Zera, Boros or even heroes like Tass, they can all make a game feel ruined.

 

So the real question to be answered for this post.. Is the frequency of play proportional to how strong a hero is? The answer is that it's not directly proportional in public play since the current actual strongest heroes are queen, immortal, Dustin, null, micro, drake, and mk... All underplayed heroes in public play.

 

I suggest rethinking your builds and gameplay vs shadow and Zera if they are really that frustrating to deal with. They are quote ganking heroes, and ganking heroes are always fun to play.

 

Stop clouding the truth with facts! Obviously the best solution is to remove them from the whole game

[lololol]

sorry I don't believe cow can crash a zera. given same skill level, zera would almost 100% kill cow.

 

This is why I play Cow in pubs. He crushes any Zera or Shadow with ease. Plus nobody buys support items so his damage is hardly being mitigated.

[Mus]

sorry I don't believe cow can crash a zera. given same skill level, zera would almost 100% kill cow.

 

No. It's a team game. I stay in the back where Zera won't target me, because my squishy allies are in the front. I don't even need detection to kill Zera, I just see the cloak shimmer and cast R Q.

 

I've never seen a good Zera in pubs, they are all bad -- build glass cannon. That is why Cow destroys Zera in pubs.

[lololol]

IMHO to hope general public to get better to IH level is wrong. IH accounts for less than 1% of people or games played. I think the game need to be fairly balanced for experienced, but non-elite gamer, ie, those with 3+ month experience in pub.

 

but no, I do think shadow is too OP. as you play a lot more pub games you'll find its not that hard to counter shadow and in fact most shadow suck so bad. zera and ling, on the other hand, are OP at the moment.

 

 

Excuse me if I'm being insulting, but there is nothing scientific with qualitative statements. What you could actually prove is that some characters game time in pubs are statistically different from other characters. What you could theorize is that shadow is one of the most commonly played characters in public games. In addition shadow in general can do decently in public games since melee heroes most important counter (teamwork) is a bit lacking.

 

What you need to realize is that any DPS carry or burst semi-carry can dominate a pub. Whether it's Darpa, Nova, Shadow, Crackling, Zera, Boros or even heroes like Tass, they can all make a game feel ruined.

 

So the real question to be answered for this post.. Is the frequency of play proportional to how strong a hero is? The answer is that it's not directly proportional in public play since the current actual strongest heroes are queen, immortal, Dustin, null, micro, drake, and mk... All underplayed heroes in public play.

 

I suggest rethinking your builds and gameplay vs shadow and Zera if they are really that frustrating to deal with. They are quote ganking heroes, and ganking heroes are always fun to play.

[lololol]

you sounded like the zera has no teammate. and trust me, when you have a teamfight going or when you are rushing to another lane to save a tower, you will not notice the glimmer. it is much harder to notice a zera than for him to notice you and planar/stun/r you that is for sure.

 

No. It's a team game. I stay in the back where Zera won't target me, because my squishy allies are in the front. I don't even need detection to kill Zera, I just see the cloak shimmer and cast R Q.

 

I've never seen a good Zera in pubs, they are all bad -- build glass cannon. That is why Cow destroys Zera in pubs.

[Mus]

Whatever. Your words mean nothing to me because I have played Cow in several pubs versus Zera and decimated him. Basically any squishy hero is food for my Cow.

[lololol]

now you are just resorting to personal attacks instead bringing in meaningful argument. it's possible you are godlike with cow. i'm saying with similar skill level of zera and teammate, zera rapes cow 100%.

 

Whatever. Your words mean nothing to me because I have played Cow in several pubs versus Zera and decimated him. Basically any squishy hero is food for my Cow.

[Lios]

All hail the cow

[Mus]

Dude I said there aren't any skilled Zera players in the pub scene.

 

Anyway, Zera is such an under-powered hero so in an in-house I would still put my money on the Cow. Just don't get bubbled then he can burst Zera down.

[MOTHER]

Zera and Shadow are fine as long as they are not fed. But I'm not a fan of heroes that have auto-win buttons (especially in pubs) like Boros' R for example. I think skills designed this way diminish the gaming experience. But this isn't about game balance, this more has to do to bad design and no amount of nerfs will fix it. Some skills simply need to be replaced.

[ComeAtMeBro]

 

Not at all. With a lack of quantitative data we have to go on the best empirical evidence we can. I fully understand that certain heros like the ones you mentioned can end up snowballing and making a game seemed ruined. I just don't think you'd find many people who wouldn't say that shadow seems to end up snowballing a disproportiate amount of pubs. Assuming of course that the skill level of people playing shadows isn't generally higher.

 

It's not that hes OP, or can't be beat. all heros are balanced, it just that shadow is more balanced than others. I would even suggest that the reason a lot of those heros you mentioned are underplayed is because in many pubs you're going to end up against some form of fed AA which makes playing dustin or jakk painful, as it takes an extremely hardcore gamer to enjoy expending 3-4x the apm just to counter a barely competant AA hero who needs less than 3 seconds of AA contact to kill you, especially with increased game speed on servers famous for high latency.

 

Do you have any personal reason for liking shadow? i know i'm prone to confirmation bias, but it seems like noone on the forum really likes him

Edited November 20, 2013 by ComeAtMeBro