Jump to content

Split Pushing/Backdoor


ginosaji
 Share

Recommended Posts

So towers, pushing, and split pushing have been one of the more significant meta-game debates that have been takeing place lately.

 

AAs took a significant nerf early game, pushers become even more pwerful early as they don't have to fear AAs in the early game anymore. Pushers became too powerful, so towers got a huge buff with resist and regen. The community reacted negatively, so some of the regen and resist were reverted, but they are still at higher levels than pre new item patch.

 

People complain that there is too much turtling late game. Artifact is nerfed signifcantly, making it very easy to backdoor.

 

Many of you are of like mind about the backdooring issue, but I'll recap for the benefit of others that don't. People feel that the artifact is too weak. It promotes pushing all the way to tier 3 in one lane so that an AA can run in after/during a teamfight. If it's late enough, an AA can take the artifact in one wave. This should not be possible for obvious reasons. It makes the game even more of a stalemate than it used to be. Just the other day I played an IH and it was like 58-25 by the end. We had all their tier 3s down and all our tier 2s up. It was difficult to push up to the artifact and while we pushed grunty came in and backdoored T3 and got the artifact down to 1500 HP. We had to leave a Queen there the rest of the game to ensure we didn't get backdoored even though we we absolutely dominating from mid game onwards. The game lasted 30 mins longer than it would have otherwise due to backdooring being an imminent threat, since we had to push 5v4.

 

Previous attempts to fix this include backdoor bonus armor, which hasn't worked. It also penalizes solo lane heroes, as they are unable to put any damage on towers. Split pushing as an AA late game is very powerful. The biggest problem is T3 and the artifact. No one hero should be able to push down a tier 3 and take half the artifacts health in the time it takes to port back from a team fight.

 

Possible solutions:

  1. Buff artifact back to what it was and nerf T3 towers, as the high ground choke point gives significant advantage there anyway. I would buff backdoor resist in this scenario as well. I don't know if it's possible, but I would only apply backdoor resist to T3 towers and not T1-T2.
  2. Have a global team usuable "Fortify Structures" ability like in Dota 2. Basically it makes towers invulnerable for around 5 seconds with some reasonable cooldown. I would advocate an exponential growth pattern to the cooldown time of this ability so it doesn't prolong games. It would also greatly discourage using ti other than for backdoor attempts.
  3. Make a consumable that fortifies buildings. Maybe it has some relatively high buy price so that the losing team would be put further behind should they decide to buy one. You could make it so that there could be a limited number per team as well. This would help ensure it wouldn't be used other than backdoor attempts as well.
  4. Make towers scale with time like creeps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

anti-backdoor mechanism would be really nice :) if creep wave behind enemy attacking tower is still alive, then towers get additional armor and health regen, sth like that :) would be really nice. I don't really like idea of consumeables for towers as it would prolong the game too much. Some kind of cooldown would be necessary. Fortify Structures is not bad idea, but I don't really see how suppose it to work in pubs with so many retarded people. Tower scaling maybe not bad idea as well.

And Artifact really need a buff

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with the tower artifact buff, I actively look to backdoor with an aa char if my team is behind and theyre pushing hard and hand of mengsk is so key in doing that. Late game team fights don't mean nearly as much as before as the team who isn't defending can be punished so easily if theyre pushing or trying highground. If there are tower consumables and glyphs then denying a tower should also be included. In some dota2 casted games I've watched casters mention that if your hard lane tower gets denied or taken down easily it's much easier/less risky to farm after when the creep gets to tier 2 and it would be fun to have this in aos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is exactly why heroes like Marine King, Maar.Null Queen. summers are the most important heroes in the current meta.

 

If your lacking heroes that its viable to get port on your just going to get split pushed all day. Marine king just dominates now. If one team has a MK and any single dps hero. and there given 40 seconds of un harassed pushing in the mid game lets say 25 mins in, They can take tier 1,2,3 in that time frame easily. then give them another 10 seconds to straight up win the game literally melting the artifact

 

This is why its so darn important to have a null maar summers. for anti push

 

And queen is in hero own league above the others because she can push and anti push like a boss. This is one of the reasons why queen is banned or first pick every single game. . If im drafting and im first pick. and queen drake are up for grabs. Im taking the queen 10/10 games

 

Other comps that were popular have fallen off, Like team cc, whombo combo. because they dont have much pushing power, and with the global reduced re spawn time. they have so small of a window to get an objective

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pushers being able to push and counter push is not a problem, that is what the hero class is designed to do. A team combo ought to include a pusher just like it is ought to include a carry, semi-carry, tank and support. The problem I feel is AA heroes like Nova, Grunty and Shadow being able to melt towers so fast.

 

I like and suggested earlier an idea like a consumable that fortifies buildings or grants them shields temporarily. There could be a limited stock of 3 for example for the entire match. It would be an excellent anti-backdoor utility and allows you to prepare for the possibility of a backdoor which is actually a viable strategy that should be welcomed. Such a consumable would serve to at least buy time for you to counter and react to the backdoor. It should not negate backdooring completely.

 

This is just it really, we just need a viable counter strategy and to increase the risk associated with backdooring (for the backdoorer not the backdooree).

 

Time scaling the towers is also a good idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MY team was losing badly. Maar ends up taking Nova with teleport. Kills artifact. I'm pretty sure score was like 20-38 and they killed all of our towers and suppressors. GG we win thx to Maar and Nova. I know Maar got distance reduction which helps, but the Nova killed the Artifact before the other team could TP back to their base to try to defend.

 

Unrelated: Why did the camping timer get removed?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MY team was losing badly. Maar ends up taking Nova with teleport. Kills artifact. I'm pretty sure score was like 20-38 and they killed all of our towers and suppressors. GG we win thx to Maar and Nova. I know Maar got distance reduction which helps, but the Nova killed the Artifact before the other team could TP back to their base to try to defend.

 

Another problem there is that Maar's teleport shouldn't be able to teleport to areas that Maar does not have vision. The distance reduction is a nice bonus, but it really doesn't fix the problem I just mentioned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i have to agree with lios maar shouldn't have to have vision, otherwise please nerf all other spells in the game that dont require vision

 

the problem is that any carry can basically down the artifact in a matter of seconds now, i know they tried to make it harder to turtle but now it just seems its easier to backdoor then actually play & we all know what every pub shadow will do...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Transporters wouldn't fulfill the intended purpose of stopping backdooring the artifact. The issue is that any high HP hero and an AA can take the artifact solo after like 40-50 min mark. Just two days ago, we had an IH game where this issue came up. My team dominated throughout the game, the score was something like 30-7. We had all tier 1 and 2 pushed and were about 45 minutes into the game. Shadow (quidditch) backdoors tier 2 and 3 towers in one lane while we try to push tier 3 and levi (tier 3 can be easily held 4v5). As we push tier three, all 5 of them immediately show up at our artifact while the creeps in that lane are nowhere to be found. Even though all 5 of my team immediately transported back to base, they took our artifact down to 1000 total HP. No joke, it was being attacked for like 4 seconds, as we started teleporting right when we saw them on the mini map. We could have pushed their artifact, but one of our team wasn't there yet and we would have lost that race. We teleported back, teamwiped, then pushed their artifact for the win.

 

Basically, I think it's stupid that after the 40 min mark you can win a game if your whole team just suicides the artifact. All you have to do is split push 1 lane over and over, which is what happened. We got like 3-4 kill off Quidd while he was split pushing and easily won teamfights while trying to push 5v4. It's stupid that a viable win strategy is just solo suicide 1 lane, putting your team at a significant disadvantage in team fights and feeding in the process, wait for the enemy to show up near your base, then suicide at the artifact.

 

Backdooring tier 1 and 2 are part of the game, maybe even tier 3. The problem is that the artifact can die to 2 heroes after the 40 min mark. All you need is a Str hero to tank damage for 8-10 seconds and any AA you want.

 

I think the best solution to this issue would be team use invulnerabilty aura for structures like in Dota 2, that makes towers unkillable for 5 seconds. This would make it so that you could at least port back to base by the time your artifact starts taking damage. You could have it not be available until 30 mins to avoid use turning laning and teamfight phase. Then make it have some cooldown or limii to make it balanced. It would serve the purpose because the way you're supposed to push is kill the enemy team (or a portion of), then use overwhelming force to kill towers.

 

As it is now, games either devolve into a base race or drag out forever because people are too afraid to move out when the whole enemy team is up due to the backdoor threat. On top of that, it thoroughly discourages levi attempts, especially after levi damage buff. The risk of backdooring is too strong to not be pushing or protecting your own artifact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We just need to buff the artifact up. You can't say that it's not a viable strategy. If you know that you will lose a teamfight unless you catch someone out of position, split push is a good choice. The problem is it too easy if no one gonna stop it. Even in League of Legends, a success moba game, you can lose to split pushing... But it's not easy to take down a Nexus, in this case is the artifact. My opinion if you are going to siege and very far a head. Just dive the damn tier 3 tower. Let them clear creep wave after wave don't help anything...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LOL this topic.. didn't ya'll complained about it long ago and the brothers* tried to solve it by buffing the tower. I already said the tower buff give "zero" help to split push/ back door.

 

I gave so many suggestions to red/ecko but they simply ignore. GG to this sad state of AoS.. after such a long time this issue isn't solved yet.

 

http://www.aeonofsto...vidchan__st__60

http://www.aeonofsto...vidchan__st__80

 

Take some notes from my posts there. What yall said were already being said. Also, I told Savior and Red that the new meta is all about backdooring half an year ago, and they laughed at me cuz i got owned by pubs.

 

No matter what you add/buff to the towers will not do a jack shap to split push or back door comp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LOL this topic.. didn't ya'll complained about it long ago and the brothers* tried to solve it by buffing the tower. I already said the tower buff give "zero" help to split push/ back door.

 

I gave so many suggestions to red/ecko but they simply ignore. GG to this sad state of AoS.. after such a long time this issue isn't solved yet.

 

http://www.aeonofsto...vidchan__st__60

http://www.aeonofsto...vidchan__st__80

 

Take some notes from my posts there. What yall said were already being said. Also, I told Savior and Red that the new meta is all about backdooring half an year ago, and they laughed at me cuz i got owned by pubs.

 

No matter what you add/buff to the towers will not do a jack shap to split push or back door comp.

 

Backdooring should be a viable strategy. It still isn't the predominant strategy, but it's much more viable now than it has been in the past. All I'm saying is that it's more viable now than in the past and it's too easier, happens earlier in the game, and can be done with fewer heroes than before. Ekco stated that the artifact health nerf was a way to ensure games don't go on for ages, which was a predominant complaint 6 months ago. If you're saying backdooring was the main balance issue then, I would disagree with you, it wasn't a concern until maybe an hour into the game, rather than 40 minutes into a game, as it is now.

 

The artifact nerf was met with little resistance when it happened, some even said it was a decent option, as changing the map was out of the question as a means to bring down game time (it would require more work than Ekco had time available). Blaming the devs for unresponsiveness in this case I think is unwarranted, it was a decent try at the goal, given the constraints. Leaving the artifact health where it is and installing a fortify structures mechanism will help achieve both goals (bringing down game time and nerfing backdooring). It would make it so that pushing out when you have a T3 down would no longer be a significant risk because you could fortify and port back to defend. Leaving artifact health where it is makes it so that if a significant portion of a team is killed off, that team's artifact can be brought down faster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The fact is you don't need to push more than one lane anymore, push one lane to the end while everyone is distracted or dead and easily take out the artifact in under a minute. There is something wrong with this picture.

 

Beside's Gino's suggestions, perhaps towers that guard the temple should be added and you have to take out all them to damage the temple. 3 towers, each corresponding to a lane, if you take out all lane towers you can take out the temple tower associated with that lane. Alternatively, you can damage the temple if you at least take out one of the temple towers, this way you can still win by pushing one lane to the very end but it is more difficult.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there is a real simple solution to make both options viable (backdoor and anti turtling);

 

tower artifact damage & health = X multiplied by towers left

 

if people want to turtle and wont protect their t1 & t2 towers there artifact will grow weaker because they are just turtling

 

if someone wants to backdoor it will be more difficult due to the fact they are just pushing 1 lane

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there is a real simple solution to make both options viable (backdoor and anti turtling);

 

tower artifact damage & health = X multiplied by towers left

 

if people want to turtle and wont protect their t1 & t2 towers there artifact will grow weaker because they are just turtling

 

if someone wants to backdoor it will be more difficult due to the fact they are just pushing 1 lane

This sounds like a very effective solution to me, that is a very good idea.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

there is a real simple solution to make both options viable (backdoor and anti turtling);

 

tower artifact damage & health = X multiplied by towers left

 

if people want to turtle and wont protect their t1 & t2 towers there artifact will grow weaker because they are just turtling

 

if someone wants to backdoor it will be more difficult due to the fact they are just pushing 1 lane

 

that is an amazing idea. I like it.

 

Another option would be to make the artifact invulnerable until all the T3 towers were down, meaning if you wanted to 'backdoor' you would have to do it more than once to win out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there is a real simple solution to make both options viable (backdoor and anti turtling);

 

tower artifact damage & health = X multiplied by towers left

 

if people want to turtle and wont protect their t1 & t2 towers there artifact will grow weaker because they are just turtling

 

if someone wants to backdoor it will be more difficult due to the fact they are just pushing 1 lane

 

Such an elegant idea.

 

Each tower could grant 500 health and 50 damage, and this is on top of the Artifact's base health and damage. For example, If you take out one lane to reach the temple, the artifact loses 1500 HP and 150 damage (3 towers), if you take out all lanes (9 towers), the artifact loses 4500 HP and 450 damage, and will be left with only base health and damage (where it is now).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...