Unique attack modifiers

[WhitetrasH]

Way to many things stack in this game, i personally think that if you have one unique attack modifier i.e. movement slow, then that should be what you bring to the fight, it's just simply way to damaging to have 2/3/4 modifiers stacking ontop of each other from one hero alone. Seriously, just by slowing said target you/your team have a huge advantage already, why should said slower still be able to life steal & do damage to you current health percentage and and and. it's simply stupid. If you have slow as your first attack modifier, the other attack modifiers shouldn't even come into play... to try & say it better, if i have life steal, then i should not be able to slow the target even if i have the item in my inventory, the extra stats that secondary attack modifier has will & should still be counted but the second unique attack modifier should be taken out of the picture completely.

 

A unique attack modifier should be just that... unique, one of a kind... on that specific hero. i personally think it would bring a much wanted balance to the game & make strategy & teamplay a bigger component in the game than it is right now in the pub scene & add a much bigger component to the IH scene.

 

If i'm wrong, tell me so, but after a long hiatus from this game & playing dota in the gap in between it's become obvious that without certain changes in the way AoS is played & the way certain items effect the end result, this is a waist of time for both devs & players. Please don't get me wrong, i will always love AoS (SotIS), you gave me a greater understanding of mobas & i will forever be in your debt for that (mobas are awesome!)... but something needs to be done about the imbalance this game always seems to have & i mean ALWAYS!

 

Please add your 2 cents.

[Moo]

I think that this would be an ok idea, however I also think you be able to get lifesteal and slow. A good compromise would be making it so that if you have one effect from a high tier item, such as lifesteal from Darwin's, you could have the slow from pulse hammer, but when you upgrade pulse hammer to force of entropy you would not gain the extra slow from it, it would be as if force had the same slow as pulse but with upgraded stats. However, I'm not sure how to make it so you could pick which high tier effect you wanted, so if anyone has ideas on that please share them.

[residente]

I guess they don't want DotA mechanics but LoL mechanics.

[ginosaji]

I think it's a terrible idea to simplify the game tbh. One attack modifier at a time would be exceptionally boring. It would remove most if not all of the item based chess match that develops between skilled teams throughout a game and would devolve into people buying based on a counter to an enemies item and vice versa, into and endless cycle.

 

I like the fact that balance in AOS revolves around Heroes, items, and interactions between different heroes, not just heroes themselves. Having only one attack/spell modifier would completely destroy the item balance intricancies of this game.

 

The only reason I could see to do this would be extreme imbalance in the game, which I don't think anyone would say is present. Yea, maybe vessel silence still too good in IH, zera too easy in pubs, Atom smasher OP generally at the moment, but it's being worked out for the most part.

 

Why would you want to simplify a game? To make it less interesting? I just don't see the point of implimenting something like this.

 

Edit: Not only would it eliminate Item complexity, it would also remove much of the hero ability/interactions. Think of vespus. His slow, DOT, Slow from FOE, slow from Nitrogen, possible DOT from ancient rune, chain lightning from cerebro if you are going full INT. All that build tweaking for each individual game would fly out the window.

[EterNity]

It is a good idea but too bad it's from DotA2 not LoL so it will not be considered.

[Muto]

I disagree. As Ginosaji said, I don't think we should simplify the game. By changing unique attack modifiers to only be applicable to one item, you effectively ruin a good portion of theory crafting behind builds. Finding a good synergy of items is just as important as finding a good synergy of spells and heroes in order to accomplish victory. By implementing this change, you essentially force a far more simple item set.

 

However, I don't think the problem you bring to the table should just be ignored. I think rather then removing the ability of unique to stack, I think it is more important to add items that can help overcome unqiue's. For example, add items that reduce the effect of slows and/or stuns on you (and remove/path "easy" fix items like parralax that just throw out blanket debuff immunity), separate and expand upon dark-steel titan's passives, and add offensive counter-counters like physical/magic resistance penetration. I would love to see more dynamic items and item counters in play. Personally, I feel the game is sorely lacking this, as usually most players (even IH) get cookie cutter builds and at most a few EZ-counter items like Darksteel titan.

[WhitetrasH]

ginosaji - it's a pity that you can't see the benifits of having a single UAM (unique attack modifier) & how much strategy just that one change could bring. To try to explain this better i'm going to use that ever loved toxi as my example - toxi has a slow skill (passive) that enables him/her/it to slow a targets movement speed... a simple change to that would help the transition into what i suggested. All you'd need to do is change it to a active by right clicking on it would make it a perminant UAM meaning all others would fall away but... if you just clicked on it or pressed lets say q (being his slow movement skill) once, would make that UAM hit just once, meaning if you have other UAM's that that other UAM would come into effect on the second AA, not taking away from the UAM that was bought but makes you play more strategic with what the hero has as a build in UAM making it less of a mass spamfest but a how would i aprouch attacking & killing said unit. As it stands now (after the game or 2 i had 2 days ago), it just seems like people stack all these UAMs & brainlessly run into a team fight all guns blazing knowing all those UAMs will do the job they want to do whilst just clicking on a hero/unit & sitting there watching how you take out your target with little to no interaction from the player at all, just by changing that one thing, you make your player base think while attacking.

 

I personally think AoS is way to item reliant for making kills & the way the game ends up, when it should be what the hero can bring to a fight, not what items that hero is going to bring to the fight. No offense intended here but THIS IS A HERO BASED GAME, NOT AN ITEM BASED GAME... Somewhere along the line it's turned into a item orgy, meaning that i can choose almost any hero in the game & turn them into a dps hero & be successful in my build regardless of who i play, obviously some will be better than others but the point remains. Not saying that in dota the same can't be done, it can but with a much greater cost on the team than it would have in AoS.

 

To move this game forward you need to start helping your player base new & old think, boredom sinks in very quickly when every single person that plays, uses the same build over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over again.

[Moo]

I think a better idea to increase the variety of item builds would be to increase the number and variety of items. I think that instead of gravity edge and contam shard, there should be physical and spell pen items. This would widen item choices and make you build more reactively than just getting the same item every time.

[residente]

I think it's a terrible idea to simplify the game tbh. One attack modifier at a time would be exceptionally boring. It would remove most if not all of the item based chess match that develops between skilled teams throughout a game and would devolve into people buying based on a counter to an enemies item and vice versa, into and endless cycle.

 

I like the fact that balance in AOS revolves around Heroes, items, and interactions between different heroes, not just heroes themselves. Having only one attack/spell modifier would completely destroy the item balance intricancies of this game.

 

The only reason I could see to do this would be extreme imbalance in the game, which I don't think anyone would say is present. Yea, maybe vessel silence still too good in IH, zera too easy in pubs, Atom smasher OP generally at the moment, but it's being worked out for the most part.

 

Why would you want to simplify a game? To make it less interesting? I just don't see the point of implimenting something like this.

 

Edit: Not only would it eliminate Item complexity, it would also remove much of the hero ability/interactions. Think of vespus. His slow, DOT, Slow from FOE, slow from Nitrogen, possible DOT from ancient rune, chain lightning from cerebro if you are going full INT. All that build tweaking for each individual game would fly out the window.

 

Yeah because this game is totally hard to play and has a high skill cap.

Making an unique attack modifier mechanic would make the game harder, because you would not have 1 million slows in the same hero, and it would make ppl think about what they should buy.

For example, if you buy Pyre you can't slow with FoE, or make true dmg with Cont. Shard so chose wisely, but I guess it would give headaches to 80% of the playerbase.

 

ofc some items should be reworked to make armor and hp based items not op.

[Adamantium]

I think unique attack mods are retarded and limiting.

[Ironsights]

I think unique attack mods are retarded and limiting.

 

and yet, without items like pyre or contamination shard, how would a tank ever die?

[ginosaji]

Yeah because this game is totally hard to play and has a high skill cap.

Making an unique attack modifier mechanic would make the game harder, because you would not have 1 million slows in the same hero, and it would make ppl think about what they should buy.

For example, if you buy Pyre you can't slow with FoE, or make true dmg with Cont. Shard so chose wisely, but I guess it would give headaches to 80% of the playerbase.

 

ofc some items should be reworked to make armor and hp based items not op.

 

I don't see how UAM based system would inherently make the game more complex, thereby making the skill cap higher. Would you care to explain how this would follow? I haven't played LOL, but have played DOTA 2.

 

ginosaji - it's a pity that you can't see the benifits of having a single UAM (unique attack modifier) & how much strategy just that one change could bring. To try to explain this better i'm going to use that ever loved toxi as my example - toxi has a slow skill (passive) that enables him/her/it to slow a targets movement speed... a simple change to that would help the transition into what i suggested. All you'd need to do is change it to a active by right clicking on it would make it a perminant UAM meaning all others would fall away but... if you just clicked on it or pressed lets say q (being his slow movement skill) once, would make that UAM hit just once, meaning if you have other UAM's that that other UAM would come into effect on the second AA, not taking away from the UAM that was bought but makes you play more strategic with what the hero has as a build in UAM making it less of a mass spamfest but a how would i aprouch attacking & killing said unit. As it stands now (after the game or 2 i had 2 days ago), it just seems like people stack all these UAMs & brainlessly run into a team fight all guns blazing knowing all those UAMs will do the job they want to do whilst just clicking on a hero/unit & sitting there watching how you take out your target with little to no interaction from the player at all, just by changing that one thing, you make your player base think while attacking.

 

I personally think AoS is way to item reliant for making kills & the way the game ends up, when it should be what the hero can bring to a fight, not what items that hero is going to bring to the fight. No offense intended here but THIS IS A HERO BASED GAME, NOT AN ITEM BASED GAME... Somewhere along the line it's turned into a item orgy, meaning that i can choose almost any hero in the game & turn them into a dps hero & be successful in my build regardless of who i play, obviously some will be better than others but the point remains. Not saying that in dota the same can't be done, it can but with a much greater cost on the team than it would have in AoS.

 

To move this game forward you need to start helping your player base new & old think, boredom sinks in very quickly when every single person that plays, uses the same build over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over again.

 

I guess I don't fully understand exactly what you mean by unique attack modifier. Does that mean every attack modifier would be an active? Would every attack modifier on items also be actives? Do you want all attack modifiers on abilities to be actives? What about spells, do the buffs/debuffs on spells have to be actives too?

 

I agree with the underlying sentiment both of you seem to share. As far as I can tell both of you would like a more pronounced skill distribution, especially the skill cap end of the spectrum. I think many of us agree that the low end already proves to be an intimidating learning curve for noobs, as many mobas are. Anyway, I agree, I wish the skill cap was higher as well, although I'm not saying I'm good enough to warrant that change.

 

The new items are taking us in that direction I believe. New Meta= Tanks are tanky, DPS is more lethal and have less durability, INT have higher damage out and are squishier (Due to higher damage out of DPS). There are also alot more active items than there once were. Pronouncing the class differances, increasing the number of active items, and pushing the game speed to faster are all things that are pushing the skill cap higher.

[ANARCHY]

ginosaji - it's a pity that you can't see the benifits of having a single UAM (unique attack modifier) & how much strategy just that one change could bring. To try to explain this better i'm going to use that ever loved toxi as my example - toxi has a slow skill (passive) that enables him/her/it to slow a targets movement speed... a simple change to that would help the transition into what i suggested. All you'd need to do is change it to a active by right clicking on it would make it a perminant UAM meaning all others would fall away but... if you just clicked on it or pressed lets say q (being his slow movement skill) once, would make that UAM hit just once, meaning if you have other UAM's that that other UAM would come into effect on the second AA, not taking away from the UAM that was bought but makes you play more strategic with what the hero has as a build in UAM making it less of a mass spamfest but a how would i aprouch attacking & killing said unit. As it stands now (after the game or 2 i had 2 days ago), it just seems like people stack all these UAMs & brainlessly run into a team fight all guns blazing knowing all those UAMs will do the job they want to do whilst just clicking on a hero/unit & sitting there watching how you take out your target with little to no interaction from the player at all, just by changing that one thing, you make your player base think while attacking.

so basically your saying that we can have all these uam's but just only have 1 active per attack?

this game would break, people would use macros and kill everyone who didnt

its a stupid idea

also it favors all AA heroes over casters and tanks

 

 

I personally think AoS is way to item reliant for making kills & the way the game ends up, when it should be what the hero can bring to a fight, not what items that hero is going to bring to the fight. No offense intended here but THIS IS A HERO BASED GAME, NOT AN ITEM BASED GAME... Somewhere along the line it's turned into a item orgy, meaning that i can choose almost any hero in the game & turn them into a dps hero & be successful in my build regardless of who i play, obviously some will be better than others but the point remains. Not saying that in dota the same can't be done, it can but with a much greater cost on the team than it would have in AoS.

 

i thought you were looking for people to "think" about how to go into a fight, is buying items not part of thinking about what your going to do in a fight?

or do you think people just buy intel items then go in and tank? or get cloak on micro...

[residente]

I don't see how UAM based system would inherently make the game more complex, thereby making the skill cap higher. Would you care to explain how this would follow? I haven't played LOL, but have played DOTA 2.

 

As I said, not everything would be as easy as, slow, slow, slow, deal current hp per sec, true dmg, etc etc, you would have to chose wisely the item builds. If you played DotA you would see it clearly

[TaxHaven]

I play WC3

[ginosaji]

As I said, not everything would be as easy as, slow, slow, slow, deal current hp per sec, true dmg, etc etc, you would have to chose wisely the item builds. If you played DotA you would see it clearly

 

I understand what a UAM is from DOTA 2. But the way Whitetrash is using it makes me think he doesn't specifically mean UAMs from DOTA 2. There are very few UAMs in DOTA 2 and they are usually on high tier items like satanic, Skadi, etc. The function of UAMs is to prevent OP combinations of items. We have a similar system in AOS called "uniques"... Powerstrike, Chain Lightning, Hunt, Cull, Overcharge are all sets uniques ensuring that people aren't able to stack similar effects. That's on top of individual Uniques like Gravity edge, Nitrogen Retrofit, etc. that ensure people don't stack the same item. In Dota2 the item just says " X attribute from multiple copies of X item do not stack," like boots for example.

 

I would argue that our system of ensure uniques don't stack is actually more complex/intricate than DOTA2, as I think many others would as well. In Dota 2 there's no distinction between classes of uniques like "Powerstrike," etc in AOS.

 

UAM's indirectly effect skill cap because of the effect they have on balance. A more precise mechanic for balancing items, like the unique classes in AOS (Powerstrike, chain lightning, etc.) can only serve to differentiate unique's into classes, therefore allowing the devs to make interactions between items more intricate. I don't see a way in which intricacy of item interactions creates ease of play or lowers the skill cap in any way.

 

If Unique's had toggled or active effects I could see that impacting complexity of the game.

[residente]

I understand what a UAM is from DOTA 2. But the way Whitetrash is using it makes me think he doesn't specifically mean UAMs from DOTA 2. There are very few UAMs in DOTA 2 and they are usually on high tier items like satanic, Skadi, etc. The function of UAMs is to prevent OP combinations of items. We have a similar system in AOS called "uniques"... Powerstrike, Chain Lightning, Hunt, Cull, Overcharge are all sets uniques ensuring that people aren't able to stack similar effects. That's on top of individual Uniques like Gravity edge, Nitrogen Retrofit, etc. that ensure people don't stack the same item. In Dota2 the item just says " X attribute from multiple copies of X item do not stack," like boots for example.

 

I would argue that our system of ensure uniques don't stack is actually more complex/intricate than DOTA2, as I think many others would as well. In Dota 2 there's no distinction between classes of uniques like "Powerstrike," etc in AOS.

 

UAM's indirectly effect skill cap because of the effect they have on balance. A more precise mechanic for balancing items, like the unique classes in AOS (Powerstrike, chain lightning, etc.) can only serve to differentiate unique's into classes, therefore allowing the devs to make interactions between items more intricate. I don't see a way in which intricacy of item interactions creates ease of play or lowers the skill cap in any way.

 

If Unique's had toggled or active effects I could see that impacting complexity of the game.

 

Satanic = Darwins more or less

Skadi = Foe more or less

Cont Shard = Desolator more or less

 

in sotis you can buy all of them to deal true dmg, slow and leech, the excuse that they are high tier items is not valid, because, they are even more expensive and with worse stats than the sotis ones

 

 

I didn't say anywhere that I want this on sotis, I just said that it would not low the skill cap but increase it, because item decissions would be more important.

[Moo]

I do not think that we should make the UAM's on items into actives, this game is already extremely mean to noobs, and the current system is fine.

[Theotherwhitemeat]

ANARCHY - no, I'm not saying that the UAM would cycle one after another, what I am saying in that example is that toxi has a build in UAM, one of his passive skills is an attack movement slow, by changing that skill from a passive to an active your effectively helping the transition... that was the point I was making in my EXAMPLE. not the fact that all the UAMs would cycle one by one the more you had, that would be retarded... Seriously... Read properly!

 

Ginosaji - no every attack UAM wouldn't be an active just toxi's movement slow attack would change to an active instead of it being a passive as it is now, meaning any hero that has a build in UAM as a passive like toxi would change to a active. Units like MK's marines or queens ultra are independent "heroes units" & won't be effected by the change... if that makes sense!?

 

No, items that have a UAM incorporated in them on heroes that have no UAM as a passive skill will inherit that items UAM as thier base attack (Thier normal AA will incorporate that UAM, as it is right now). Eg... If shadow buys a pyre, that pyres UAM is a % of current hp is taken away with each AA, right? So by default that would be his primary UAM... Now if shadow buys another item with a UAM such as darwins, with it's life steal passive UAM, then that UAM from the passive wouldn't & shouldn't compound/stack but if he activates the active from darwins, then that active would take presidance, meaning for those 5 seconds LS would be the primary UAM & not the pyres % of current hp.

 

No I don't want every item with a UAM to be an active, not saying that they can't have actives, my best example is darwins, it's UAM is LS but it's active is a greater percentage of LS than the original UAM... Refer to above statement.

 

Spells are spells, not UAMs... I'm not saying let's say barbed plating is a attacking UAM or even that chilling artifact (if that's what it's called... I'm referring to the item that slows the attack speed of your attacker when attacked... been a while, I can't remember the names of all the items) is or needs to be changed, they would stay the same cause they're defensive items & are used as such. What I am suggesting is that items that are used for enhancing auto attacks should be limited to one per hero not stack like they do now.

 

BTW this is WhitetrasH, my normal acc has been banned for a blatant abuse so I had to create this one, I was at fault so the ban stays, I just created this one to reply to this thread! Sorry mods, I had to! Forgiveness is a sign of strength not weakness! ;) love ya wrath! :*

[Moo]

I dont like this idea anyways, but just to point this out, how would you determine which UAM takes precedence if both of them are passive (Example: Pyre and Force of Entropy), since they are not being made into actives?

[Theotherwhitemeat]

Which ever one was bought first. & as with dota, if you have 2 UAMs in your inventory if you drop one then pick it up again, the one that stayed in your inventory becomes the primary & the other just adds whatever stats it had back to the player minus the UAM... Simple really!

[ginosaji]

Ok, now that I finally understand what you're saying acurately (I believe), I can explain my end better.

 

One point: In Dota 2 not every attack modifier is a UAM, so it's kind of a misnomer to compare what you both are suggesting (only one effect on attack) to UAMs in Dota 2. One example: SK in Dota has leech, crit, bash, and can gain other effects on attack with items (see MKB).

 

Residente: I understand you think UAMs would raise the skill cap, I just don't think that's true. DOTA 2 is a more hero-centric game than AOS. Hero skills/abilities are much more powerful, Cooldowns are shorter, and mana is more scarce in Dota 2. In AOS, skills/abilities are less powerful, mana is more plentiful, and c/ds are generally longer. In AOS items are a larger portion of the game. Whether that is because heroes are weaker relative to each other or items are just strong compared to heroes I'll let other people aregue over.

 

Items and build paths are more powerful in AOS, as you said yourself Residente. Lowering the power of items relative to heroes would make item choices more important, because you could only choose one effect. I agree with your point there. What I am saying is that overall complexity of the game is the main source of skill cap IMO and not decision making processes in your build order, which would become more important if UAMs were instituted in AOS. It would create a scenario where item choice is even more important than now and a chess match of item buying rather than multiple intricate interactions.

[Moo]

Which ever one was bought first. & as with dota, if you have 2 UAMs in your inventory if you drop one then pick it up again, the one that stayed in your inventory becomes the primary & the other just adds whatever stats it had back to the player minus the UAM... Simple really!

As I said I don't like the idea, but at least you did have a way to pick which one to use. One of the reasons I do not like the idea is how confusing it would be to a noob. Just imagine one trying to figure this stuff out. Even if someone tryed to explain it to them it would be very difficult to understand, and I think this game is already complicated enough if you have not played it for a large amount of time as it is. There is very little reason in my mind to do this, as being able to stack UAM's is quite balanced in almost every case.

[Theotherwhitemeat]

Ginosaji, you're right about some UAMs that are able to stack with others but what's stopping AoS from doing the same thing? As an example, if you buy pyre, no ones stopping any dev from making pyre stack with let's say LS items, but not with content shard. Meaning you'd still get LS while attacking with pyre but can't have your bread buttered on both sides by having a cont true damage & have pyre still work as well. I personally wouldn't mind if the debs could create combos that could work together, meaning having a primary set of UAMs & a secondary set of UAMs, but to keep it the same, meaning you can stack every UAM & just get your dog to roll over your keyboard with the same result as a noob playing is just silly...

 

Look, this was a suggestion, it's not a set in stone set of rules, you either use it or not, I was just trying to find a way for me to come back to AoS but it seems it's really time for me to move on to better, more organized, well balanced games. Thanks for atleast listening (reading), hope it was not all in vein.

 

For me anyways, I still see roughly the same build on nova than I saw on her 6 months back

[Theotherwhitemeat]

As I said I don't like the idea, but at least you did have a way to pick which one to use. One of the reasons I do not like the idea is how confusing it would be to a noob. Just imagine one trying to figure this stuff out. Even if someone tryed to explain it to them it would be very difficult to understand, and I think this game is already complicated enough if you have not played it for a large amount of time as it is. There is very little reason in my mind to do this, as being able to stack UAM's is quite balanced in almost every case

then you my cow friend would struggle your ass of with dota 2, but as with everything, if it's not for you then it's not for you! HF