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hero designations


dutch
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Honest question and I don't mean to BM or troll. I understand that heroes are given designations to help newer players know how to build or play them, but there are a few that are just strange. E.g. Vergil is listed as a DPS hero when his entire skill set suggests that he do everything but try to be aa dps. Maybe I'm just a bad Vergil but this seems silly to me. There are a few others that stand out but I can't think of them off the top of my head. Some heroes can certainly be built different ways successfully but I think an argument could be made that some hero designations and hence recommended builds are misleading at the least.

 

This is pretty minor as people will know how to build and play their own way after a short time but it makes me question how these roles are decided. Perhaps the lore story for each hero could be instead be a mini guide for different play styles for each hero, e.g. bio can be played as a tank or caster, try building x / y / z or 1 / 2 / 3 depending on what your team needs. Note that e can be casted twice if the CD is allowed to run down once burrowed, etc.

 

Given that there's a concerted push to make the game friendlier to new people I think making better intros to each hero will help encourage people to try new heroes without being afraid of feeding and sucking for a few games before they find out that oops Vergil is actually a caster and DPS isn't his strong point.

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adversary answered ur questing for the most part but like vergil being dps. when u go intel build on him he does lots of damage. lets say vergil has the talent for 5% spell damage, argus crystal 20%, yamato 25% when proced and gravity edge for true damage and that he has 600 intel. his Q if I remember right is 220 +25% intel spell damage aoe. so that's 462 damage with out yamato and 555 damage with yamato, per Q which u can spam 3 times = 1386 damage with out yamato, his ulti I totally for get the base damage but lets say its 350 then + 25% intel. it strikes 10 times but can only strike the same target 3 times. you will def use yamato reactor with this skill, which means u will do 2250 damage to each target if there is 3 or less. hence. QQ yamato RQ for a total of 3729 damage before midigation. on 3 targets which is a lot of damage aka dps.

 

ask for other names:

Initiator = someone who is ment to start the fight. micro blinking in and tossing enemy to his team to kill. jackons blinking in and using ulti and silence to pull all the enemy to one spot. basically most initiators have skills that will disable enemy or make them scatter.

 

Tank = someone who is built to take more damage then other heroes. usually a STR hero but there are others who can play this role. erekul, Jackson, and vergil if built right can play this role. and are not STR heros.

 

Support = someone who normally don't get all the kills but assist in disabling or killing the enemy. raynor has a silence that can hit more then one target as well as a mark to increase damage on target by 30%. dustin can do massive burst damage to up to 4 targets at one time.

 

Feeder = someone who is dying but also isn't doing any thing productive while dying. as in if u got 0 kills, 5 deaths but have 9 assist ur more then likely are not feed its just ur getting targeted first as ur helping ur team. feeding is more when ur 0 kills 5 deaths 0 assist and u got 12 creep kills.

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"Tank" doesn't eksist in the way AoS-players think it does. There are "tanky" heroes, but there is no "tank" role.

 

A "tanky hero" is typikally either a support or initiator, or a kombination thereof.

 

On the subjekt of "support" - those are heroes who do not require a lot of farm to reash the stage where they bekome a problem for the enemy team, and at the same time hawe limiited lategame skaling on a personal lewel, in komparison to other heroes.

While Raynor and Dustin kan both be played as support, I wouldn't designate either of them as sush, really.

The problem with "support" in AoS is that so many heroes skale so well into the lategame, so it's hard to make the argument that you require farm less than the other guy.

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Yeah the lines between the traditional 'roles' found in Mobas are blurred in AoS and I like it this way TBH. Some excel at certain things more than others naturally but every hero is useful in different ways at any stage of the game. There are few hard 'insert role here' heroes I think in AoS.

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I wouldn't say there is no tank in AoS. Erekul is good example, at least late game. Its hard to call him support or initiator. I agree that Drake, Micro, Akasha are tanky initiators, while Balrog is tanky support. But I'm curious - would u say that there are tank heroes in Dota 2? From my experience the most tanky heroes there are usually carries (because of farm).

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I wouldn't say there is no tank in AoS. Erekul is good example, at least late game. Its hard to call him support or initiator. I agree that Drake, Micro, Akasha are tanky initiators, while Balrog is tanky support. But I'm curious - would u say that there are tank heroes in Dota 2? From my experience the most tanky heroes there are usually carries (because of farm).

Again, you must understand:

There are loads of "Tanky" heroes, but there is no "Tank" role. The reason for this is simple: Players kan shoose to not attak any giwen target.

 

There are lots of "Tanky" heroes in DotA, but there are not "Tanks". There are nukers/gankers, initiators, sekond initiators, ets. ets. but no "tanks", bekause it doesn't eksist.

 

Erekul is not a tank, Erekul is a "Tanky" spellkast-karry/initiator with great utility for the team, and kan be built in a number of ways. "But how is Erekul an initiator?? That doesn't make sense" you might ask. That's bekause "Initiator" doesn't hawe to mean you pluk an enemy with bola, lanse or a throw - all it means is that you're the hero who instigates the fight, and if you're sussesfull your team will generally be a in a good position.

Erekul should be played on the frontlines bekause of the skillset of the hero, and Erekul should be looking to get attaked by the enemy, as the will put the team of said Erekul in a fawourable position. Mush in the same way a "tanky" built toksimanser is an initiator->pop ult and simply forse the fight. You might die, you might not, but either way benefits your team a lot.

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The point to all of this is not how experienced players can technically break down roles, builds, what a hero is good at, etc. This is a given - anyone who plays the game a lot knows how certain heroes work. This is about providing accurate base descriptions for heroes for newer players since there is a big push to make the game friendlier and more accessible to newbies.

 

I agree with the sentiment that its a good thing that there is no "definite" hero role. I haven't played much DotA2 but having every hero pigeonholed into nuker, carry, etc. takes some of the fun out of the game. Building non-traditionally on certain heroes for certain effects is a hell of a lot of fun and its great that for the most part no hero is limited to a certain role.

 

DPS = Damage Per Second.

AA = Auto Attack

therefore DPS ≠ Auto Attack

 

 

Vergil can be an auto attack hero, although it will probably be late game before he gets to be an effective auto attack hero.

 

There is no AA hero designation in the hero select screen, which is what I'm talking about. Even if he "can" be effective lategame as an AA hero, no one can argue that the bulk of his effectiveness and function comes from being an aoe caster who succeeds by merit of having two escapes and monstrous aoe burst spell dmg, not AA.

 

adversary answered ur questing for the most part but like vergil being dps. when u go intel build on him he does lots of damage. lets say vergil has the talent for 5% spell damage, argus crystal 20%, yamato 25% when proced and gravity edge for true damage and that he has 600 intel. his Q if I remember right is 220 +25% intel spell damage aoe. so that's 462 damage with out yamato and 555 damage with yamato, per Q which u can spam 3 times = 1386 damage with out yamato, his ulti I totally for get the base damage but lets say its 350 then + 25% intel. it strikes 10 times but can only strike the same target 3 times. you will def use yamato reactor with this skill, which means u will do 2250 damage to each target if there is 3 or less. hence. QQ yamato RQ for a total of 3729 damage before midigation. on 3 targets which is a lot of damage aka dps.

 

ask for other names:

Initiator = someone who is ment to start the fight. micro blinking in and tossing enemy to his team to kill. jackons blinking in and using ulti and silence to pull all the enemy to one spot. basically most initiators have skills that will disable enemy or make them scatter.

 

Tank = someone who is built to take more damage then other heroes. usually a STR hero but there are others who can play this role. erekul, Jackson, and vergil if built right can play this role. and are not STR heros.

 

Support = someone who normally don't get all the kills but assist in disabling or killing the enemy. raynor has a silence that can hit more then one target as well as a mark to increase damage on target by 30%. dustin can do massive burst damage to up to 4 targets at one time.

 

Feeder = someone who is dying but also isn't doing any thing productive while dying. as in if u got 0 kills, 5 deaths but have 9 assist ur more then likely are not feed its just ur getting targeted first as ur helping ur team. feeding is more when ur 0 kills 5 deaths 0 assist and u got 12 creep kills.

 

This is largely missing the point. Yes, as an experienced player, if you break down the builds and items and how the skills work, you can consider Vergil's skills to be DPS in the sense that he has a high burst spell damage output which technically provides high damage per second. This is ignoring the fact that the connotation of DPS is AA, not spell damage, but whatever. However, Nova is DPS, Shadow is DPS, Tosh is DPS... would you build them similarly? No. Are the heroes even remotely similar in terms of playstyle or role? Tosh and Nova perhaps, but does a newbie know any different? No. The recommended build for Vergil has him going Machete, Phase Cloak, and other AA items. Obviously experienced players will know how to build what after seeing a particular hero in action several times, but for newer players, having Vergil and Shadow both be technically classified as melee DPS characters is misleading.

 

This isn't to say that there needs to be a category for every playstyle; its a given that DPS heroes Nova and Omega are clearly going to be played very differently with very different builds. Its just that there are some heroes like Vergil who are largely mislabeled and hence underplayed since the designations and subsequent starting builds are largely misleading for newer players. If we're talking accessibility then I think having a more in-depth hero summary than "Medium:DPS. Vergil runs around disabling people blah blah lore story" would be nice. Something like: "Vergil is an AOE burst caster with two escapes and a heroic passive that allows him to bait, towerdive, and escape sticky situations. Generally speaking, try to hang around the edges of a team battle and use your extremely strong ult when it can have the most effect on the most players. Your Q is very useful for wearing down enemies over time in lane and providing a huge debuff to enemy attack damage. Lategame, Vergil can transition into AA. Item X, Y, Z will be good for this role, and try *this* item to make your Q extra effective."

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Soede you are right though strictly technical I guess. By the way toxi can initiate in that way but I prefer toxi in back but not back at all) I mean Toxi with a Wall is nice.

 

Lol Toxi in back? Toxi must be played by real men and man up, go first pop ult, Q and AA, and wait to die, your team will get 5 of them and their team 1 so np at all (if you survive better lol)

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OK noobs, DPS is relating to their damage out put. the 2 kinds of dps you have are burst and steady/constant. when calculation dps its the damage done over time then divided by how long you attacked. for example. asumming one target, over 10 seconds. shadow does 300 weapon damage, has lightning rod and uses shade(I forget shades damage but lets just say 500). he does 2 attacks a second. 300x2x10=6000. rod procs every 4th attack for 150 damage, so 5x150=750 then add them all together. and divided by the 10 sec. which = 725 dps. before midigation

 

say vergil with the information I posted above single target. you could probably end up doing Q 5 times in total his ulti and 1 Q being with yamato active. not even going to include his auto attacks. 4653/10 = 465 dps.

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DPS = Damage Per Second.

 

It's not damage over time.

 

It does not need any more complicated details.

 

It means the amount of damage you do per second. Nothing else.

 

once again what is a second, in fact it is a unit of time. and if your saying dps is just one second then the only dps heros in the game would be burst dps like rancor and stalker since they are the only ones who produce the most damage in one second.

 

and when u say "It means the amount of damage you do per second." then u must be talking about over a giving amount of time since you didn't say damage you do in one second. so please make up your mind and let use know whats up.

 

 

@Nuparu every hero does dps. even if stalker auto attacks you then ulti's you he is still doing dps. DPS is suppose to be the average amount per second your pretty much doing. and like I said there are 2 types of dps. example drake chasing someone with his burn on and shm is doing constant dps. constant is when most of the damage done is consistant like his burn. burst is like stalker, if we had a damage tracker of his damage majority would be his W and R over his auto attack. drake his burn, shadow his AA(procs), raynor his silence and ulti. rancor his nuke and snipe. Lord Z his auto attacks and ring unless he is vs shadow then its probably going to be that barb plating he bought

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Listen, the thought of "DPS" only makes sense when speaking of auto-attak heroes, bekause they will (ewentually) rak up mush more damage, as their damage is dealt out on a konsistent basis in any prolonged engagement.

 

A hero like wergil, whish you mentioned, has low dps prowided an engagement is prolonged, but is able to do a lot more damage than an auto-attak karry ower a short span of time, and in a grand AoE.

 

In other words, a "DPS" hero is an auto-attak karry by definition.

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Thats why Fortify is so good talent for Toxi

 

I spoke about toxi position with Residente.When I Said back i am not saying back at all but he works better if he has some hero wall in front. Many times I see a team with no initiator and toxi going in front casting Ulti and going back cause he is scared. Though A suicidal Toxi I could agree, but just if he knows he has to do that :D

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