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Who should support ( Buy support items)?


Takeray
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Before I ask I must clarify I have my own opinion.

 

But since I didn't see this situation in other moba game I ask who should buy support items?

 

The initiator, the carry, the burst or the support?

 

I always considered a support ( though can be built in many ways) can act as support but recently I discovered the initiator is who should sacrifice his build in order to initiate giving support.doing bad both jobs.

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The person you want to be buying support items is the person that is tanky and has survive ability , whats the point of all those support items if your initiator buys them and face plants into their team and dies, therefore, removing all his items from that fight, its more logical to have your support near the middle of the group, trying to not get focused, and giving you all his auras and what not.

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Depends on what support you mean.

Aura´s can stay in the back(about rory or half dustin/maar/raynor distance from the fight) np. But if you have a taser/shrapnel to counter vergil/pentos/darpa its useless to have it so far from the fight. It can work it just depends on what you need.

 

And initiators by no means have to sacrifice their build for support. Drake with shrapnel/buffer, Jackson with shrapnel, Micro with taser, Balrog with korhal/coa/shrapnel/taser(last is if really needed) Lz with korhal/shrapnel/buffer.

Those are decent or good items to get initiations and most are part of standard builds

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I don't think the carry should ever buy support items, they need to do as much sustained damage as possible. I would say the burst can buy support items but only after they have enough damage from their burst, for an example consider Dustin. You can buy 4-5 INT items and you will be able to do a lot of damage, hence your remaining items can be support. Since Dustin keeps his distance from the enemy, these support items should be aura items. Cyprus is also an interesting example, he doesn't need 6 INT items, and after he does his combo he is usually close enough to use something like a taser or shrapnel cloak.

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I would say the burst can buy support items but only after they have enough damage from their burst, for an example consider Dustin. You can buy 4-5 INT items and you will be able to do a lot of damage, hence your remaining items can be support. Since Dustin keeps his distance from the enemy, these support items should be aura items. Cyprus is also an interesting example, he doesn't need 6 INT items, and after he does his combo he is usually close enough to use something like a taser or shrapnel cloak.

I'm always cautious buying support on burst int heroes. Because if their tank gets a buffer and their carry get a HP item you might not 1 shot them anymore. And then that 2.1k (taser minimum) would have been better spend on a highs boson (minimum).

When i do get support items its because i'm snowballing and have at least edge + argus and can deal 75% hp dmg to any 3(or more) of their heroes, or 130% 1 hero

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Depends on what support you mean.

Aura´s can stay in the back(about rory or half dustin/maar/raynor distance from the fight) np. But if you have a taser/shrapnel to counter vergil/pentos/darpa its useless to have it so far from the fight. It can work it just depends on what you need.

 

And initiators by no means have to sacrifice their build for support. Drake with shrapnel/buffer, Jackson with shrapnel, Micro with taser, Balrog with korhal/coa/shrapnel/taser(last is if really needed) Lz with korhal/shrapnel/buffer.

Those are decent or good items to get initiations and most are part of standard builds

 

I can agree in some cases and not in other but that's not really important.

 

Though I'd like to difference between support sacrifying your best build and not sacrifying. I mean I consider Shrapnel a core in many builds for different tank heros and I consider a core in my Jackson Build. I know I am supporting with it, but even If I could change it for other item most of time I'd never do that.

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Late game many heroes can carry some support items and sacrifice at least one item slot. If they already build their core items it isn't a big deal. However early-mid game decision, which hero which support item should get, isn't very easy. In AoS there aren't many heroes which can go full support build. That role fit only to pushers (like Marine King, Queen, Garamond), healers (Egon, Medic), initiators after they get their core item if they need it (Jackson, Tass) or heroes which strength isn't very dependent on items (Rory). But what if your team doesn't have on of those heroes? Then usually tanks are forced to get this kind of items. But if u force tank to get shrapnel or taser early game, he can't tank. Even spell buffer isn't very good pick for tank as it gives no hp at all and he will get melted to enemy carry. The only viable early game item for tanks is Korhal or CoA as it give health, armor and nice aura. Of course heroes like Balrog can go full support as well, but then he can't tank very well even with his free hp. Other support items are great pick later, however if u have different role to fulfill u can't really take them early game. Tanks need HP, carry damage, burst heroes inteligence and initiators SHC.

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Support Heroes:

 

Level 1 (Main): -Won't die during fights, gets certain support items to let the tanks build super tanky rather then aura items, like EM instead of Korhal:

MK

Medic

Rory

 

Level 2 (Partial): -Will build them usually because they'll be fine with them

Drake

LZ

Justicar

Erekul

 

Level 3: (Sometimes... I like to avoid them on these heroes because they initiate. That's why. They can end up dead real fast.)

Balrog

Micro

Vorpal

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Support is generally anyone who's not a dps hero. Sotis is unique in that all heroes need items to be effective, yet carrys are still the most effective late game with equal farm - which is part of why I cant stand the current version with that cap of 18 - a dominating support will get capped out at 18 and lose to the team with the better composition, regardless of player skill. This is a copy of LoL's anti-anti-fun system.

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Late game many heroes can carry some support items and sacrifice at least one item slot. If they already build their core items it isn't a big deal. However early-mid game decision, which hero which support item should get, isn't very easy. In AoS there aren't many heroes which can go full support build. That role fit only to pushers (like Marine King, Queen, Garamond), healers (Egon, Medic), initiators after they get their core item if they need it (Jackson, Tass) or heroes which strength isn't very dependent on items (Rory). But what if your team doesn't have on of those heroes? Then usually tanks are forced to get this kind of items. But if u force tank to get shrapnel or taser early game, he can't tank. Even spell buffer isn't very good pick for tank as it gives no hp at all and he will get melted to enemy carry. The only viable early game item for tanks is Korhal or CoA as it give health, armor and nice aura. Of course heroes like Balrog can go full support as well, but then he can't tank very well even with his free hp. Other support items are great pick later, however if u have different role to fulfill u can't really take them early game. Tanks need HP, carry damage, burst heroes inteligence and initiators SHC.

 

I consider shrapnel a really good tanky item with both resistances. In terms of tanking item lacks on HP but I consider a tank tanking with Sres Armr and HP or this simplified effective HP and effective HP isn't always the highest HP value. And since carries mostly scales well late game and casters can be more deadly early-mid game I usually priorize Sres over Armr early game.

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I consider shrapnel a really good tanky item with both resistances. In terms of tanking item lacks on HP but I consider a tank tanking with Sres Armr and HP or this simplified effective HP and effective HP isn't always the highest HP value. And since carries mostly scales well late game and casters can be more deadly early-mid game I usually priorize Sres over Armr early game.

I disagree. If u have hero with 1.2k HP, then getting 300 HP more gives u 25% more effective HP against every source of damage. That means u need at least 25% more spell resist if u want make it comparable, but still it would increase your effective HP against only one source of damage. Thats why Korhal, which gives 225 health and quite a lot of spell/physical resist is the best early game pick to increase your effective HP for its price and support your team at the same time. Even Coat of Arms, which gives 300 health (30 STR) and 6 armor (17% physical resistance) is still better early game pick for tanks than any other support item.

And I disagree with your opinion about which kind of hero is more scary. Early game your armor value is pretty low while current jungling meta allow enemy carry to be ahead. Increasing health and armor early game is much more effective than increasing health and spell resist. Burst damage heroes usually doesn't have good farm early game, therefore they can't output huge amount of damage. And if enemy team has nuker like Cyprus, u just need to survive his combo. It isn't constant spell damage. Instead getting spell resist item which doesn't gives u any health, much better is to get even pure health item without any other bonuses and Tea Extract.

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Opinions are just opinions.

 

But there are things to clarify. Armor and Health increases peer level though slightly not same for Sres.

 

300 is the 25% of 1200 but you are considering that HP working on same way and with same resistances. if you have 20 amor your effective HP won't be 1200 it ill be 1400-1600 ( Don't know).

 

Besides of this many items with Sres increases your Physical resistance in some way ( Though many times this is not valuable) Schyptide gives you armor, Galactic gives you shield, Shrapnel gives you armor too and 2 seconds receving 0 dmg, Electric gives you 1 or 1,5 sec reciving non damage ( And HP)

 

By other part Korhal being a nice item. I think it scales exponentiary and not linearly. I mean if you have 50% of both resistances it won't give you 8% putting your resistances to 58% but lower.

 

Current meta though I disagree sometimes includes early Lighning Rod or Explosive, which a high portion of damage is Spell.

 

Explanation about nuker is ok, but you need to resist it anyway, and as nuker my job is to kill/oneshot other carries or nukers, Tanks won't be my main focus. most of time.

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I wasn't talking about absolute values of effective HP, but relative difference between one value and another. If u increasing your HP it doesn't really matter how much resistance u already have to calculate how much your effective HP (in percent value) would increase. So going from 1.2k HP to 1.5k HP would always increase your effective HP by 25% and it is totally independent from your resistance values (of course when they stay same).

In case of resistance values I made a mistake. It seems it affects current effective HP in different way I thought. 25% more spell resistance isn't 25% more EHP against spell damage, but 1/(1-0.25) = 1.33(3) more EHP against spell damage. For 25% more EHP u need only 20% more resistance. However it is still independent on current value of resistance.

 

If someone looking for pattern to calculate how specific item would affect your EHP against some specific source of damage:

X = (1 + HP/Current_HP) * 1/(1-R)

HP - absolute value of additional HP item gives

Current_HP - absolute value of your current HP

R - amount of resistance item gives (value between 0 and 1)

 

so the only variable is your current HP, not current resistance.

 

Anyway u can start thinking about absolute values of effective HP to judge if u need more against some specific source of damage. However usually u doing it late game, not early game. U right that HP and physical resistance is growing with levels, it can be some kind of factor, but it doesn't change the fact, that early Spell Buffer on low health tank (like Erekul) isn't very good idea. I think I will prepare a table with data how specific item affect your EHP dependently on your current HP.

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