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Caaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiin!!!!!!!


barwick
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First off, sorry for the poor "Wrath of Khan" reference.

 

Anyhow. Every game I'm in lately, whether there's a Cain on our team or theirs, it seems the game swings in the favor of Cain's team, almost without fail. Am I just missing something on how to handle him, or is he just generally difficult to handle period?

 

First off, his PASSIVE, is exactly what Penthos' ulti + Q used to do, but Penthos was just nerfed to 10% (down from 35%!!!!!) slow. So, Cain has basically Penthos' ult every 10 seconds as a zero energy ability.

 

Second, he's tanky as crap, yet does absurd burst DPS at ok range. He supposedly doesn't have an escape mechanism, but his Q in all reality, is an awesome escape mechanism.

 

There's no real drawbacks to him in all honesty that I can pick out. Late game he has massive HP, can tank, and can often murder an AA with his high burst ability and especially Q combined with ______________.

 

Even early game, he's the one char I despise seeing in my lane.

 

Am I totally off base on this, or is Cain in need of a good "lookin' at"?

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Cain has a real problem if the other team has the right initiation, like a micro drake boros, if you can get him isolated from his team , its easy to handle him, its when hes in the back raining down AAs for the entire fight that it becomes a problem, cain really is balanced.

 

Think that was you in the pub last night, when you left the game was over, until then it was going to be a good game.

 

Personally, even initiating, unless you can silence then pull him, he's going to wreak havok on your team, or just freeze your melee heroes and go walk back to his side of the fence.

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hes got one of the most worthless ults in the game... hes a bruiser not a true carry, Hes beefy and does good dmg but thats about it.

 

Cain ult is hardly worthless....... that is if people know that they can turn it off. Most Cains do not know that, in fact, and try to have their ult last the full 15 seconds, which results in a) the team fight being long over before Cain does any damage b) enemies just blinking/cloaking/etc and avoiding all damage. You don't need to keep the ult on for long...... just your q stun allows good 7 or so missiles to be in the air before the target unfreezes, so that is already a huge amount of damage before the enemy can use escape abilities.

 

Cain is hugely strong against healers or leechers, such as ling, erekul, egon, maar and more.

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Cain has a real problem if the other team has the right initiation, like a micro drake boros, if you can get him isolated from his team , its easy to handle him, its when hes in the back raining down AAs for the entire fight that it becomes a problem, cain really is balanced.

 

And this is different from other ranged carries how?

He has an attack steroid... Which deals signifigant more damage then other carries.

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And this is different from other ranged carries how?

He has an attack steroid... Which deals signifigant more damage then other carries.

 

cain is largely comparable to kerrigan. both are low mobility, both have very strong attack steroids. both are strength

 

kerrigan is more ranged, and late game aa, cain is more single target damage, and early game dominance. that is all. both suffer mobility issues in team fights, and can get focused down with cc due to their lack of escapes.

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And if anyone buys so much as a lockbox on the other team it does zilch.

 

Name one less useful ult than his.

 

Shadow ult - anyone buys scans it does almost nothing

Unix ult - anyone buys taser/lockbox it does nothing

Nova ult- no one needs to buy anything, they just need to have the brainpower to kill nova as she is dashing towards them

Jakk ult- anyone buys truesight elixir, mines are seen and killed by even creeps

Drake ult- anyone buys taser/lockbox and he will not be able to use it

Tychus ult- no one gives a shap about killing tychus anyway, so they won't even try. The extra stack on attack is almost insignificant

 

 

any close range ult- they get tasered lockboxed/and won't be able to use it

 

BTW, someone has to have pretty good timing with that lockbox, so that cain releases missiles just as the enemy is phased. If it's done before, only about 2 missiles are going to miss, then the hero is going to come out of phase and be hit by the rest. Besides, cain ult would still be able to nuke down towers, daggoth, and lone heroes like it's no one's business. Or if you are referring to lockboxing the Cain, then you can use that argument for soooo many heroes.

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I cain with Taser is about the hardest thing to deal with >.< thats where if i were to call out a problem all though i just think its a great use of an item. Hes amazing 1v1 throw in a taser and its pretty much gg for any hero. I think hes fairly balanced though you just cant let him sit there whiping your team while you atk tank unit.

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Shadow ult - anyone buys scans it does almost nothing Except result in the single highest damage steroid for any hero

Unix ult - anyone buys taser/lockbox it does nothing exceptionally short cd and outranges all of those items n addition to being a large dmg/heal

Nova ult- no one needs to buy anything, they just need to have the brainpower to kill nova as she is dashing towards them true nova ult might be more useless than a cain ult

Jakk ult- anyone buys truesight elixir, mines are seen and killed by even creeps even with TS jakks mines can still be effectively used for kills if your an intelligent jakk, and still very effective vs creep waves.

Drake ult- anyone buys taser/lockbox and he will not be able to use it One of the strongest ults in the game

Tychus ult- no one gives a shap about killing tychus anyway, so they won't even try. The extra stack on attack is almost insignificant Allows tychus to resist massive amounts of dmg while amplifying his CC abilities and own DPS

 

 

any close range ult- they get tasered lockboxed/and won't be able to use it

 

BTW, someone has to have pretty good timing with that lockbox, so that cain releases missiles just as the enemy is phased. If it's done before, only about 2 missiles are going to miss, then the hero is going to come out of phase and be hit by the rest. Besides, cain ult would still be able to nuke down towers, daggoth, and lone heroes like it's no one's business. Or if you are referring to lockboxing the Cain, then you can use that argument for soooo many heroes.

 

So hogwash on everything but the nova ult. Lockbox was one of merely dozens of counters to cains ult which timing isnt hard you simply use it 2 1/2 seconds after cain freezes a target no harder than molo lockbox, nearly 1/3 of all heros have innate ability to avoid it, most others buy items that allow them to avoid it as part of natural builds.

 

More often then not, cains ult results in doing reduced dmg, No other skill in the game backfires on the user a minimum of 50% of the time

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You guys are thinking about cains ult all wrong, just cause its not made to blow up a single hero unit, doesnt mean its useless, for 1, i know whenever im in an IH, and we have a cain, we are going to have aeon/ levi control, cause this guy can solo it at levl 6. not to mention, you leave your tower for 1 wave after cains level 6, your towers gonna go down. but ya, dont think about his ult in use against heros, but mind that it works really really well against some heros, just avoid using it on the slippery heros.

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So hogwash on everything but the nova ult. Lockbox was one of merely dozens of counters to cains ult which timing isnt hard you simply use it 2 1/2 seconds after cain freezes a target no harder than molo lockbox, nearly 1/3 of all heros have innate ability to avoid it, most others buy items that allow them to avoid it as part of natural builds.

 

More often then not, cains ult results in doing reduced dmg, No other skill in the game backfires on the user a minimum of 50% of the time

It doesnt change the fact that these are all easily counterable ults in the same way lockbox can counter cain's ult. And if you think anybody will actually get hit by mines they can see and kill themselves, you must be playing pubs or something. Also, on tychus, sure he can tank with that damage resist, but why would anyone bother trying to kill him anyway? He really doesnt have all that much dps.

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tbh Cain's ult by itself is only bested by Nova's ult in terms of impact when properly countered. However, Cain's skillset makes him a really strong assassin at levels 6-12, as his Ult's burst damage still hasn't been caught by rising HP values (because typically people go for DPS items early).

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Cain is fine the way he is.

 

Play passive early game is pretty much all you needed.

 

If you really don't know how to deal with his ult, you probably don't really know how to play AoS, either.

 

It can be done easily and he's one of the less deadly hero in turns of AA late game.

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It doesnt change the fact that these are all easily counterable ults in the same way lockbox can counter cain's ult. And if you think anybody will actually get hit by mines they can see and kill themselves, you must be playing pubs or something. Also, on tychus, sure he can tank with that damage resist, but why would anyone bother trying to kill him anyway? He really doesnt have all that much dps.

 

 

Actually if you an intelligent jakk, you can put mines in blind spots where they don't have vision till their on the mines, they also make great defensive positions for places to have team fights, places to flee from a gank or places to iniate to IE drake, grav, tass ect ect.

 

The only equally easily counter able ult is Unix's ult, however even when its countered unix ulti still does something cains ulti does negative things for the cain

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So hogwash on everything but the nova ult. Lockbox was one of merely dozens of counters to cains ult which timing isnt hard you simply use it 2 1/2 seconds after cain freezes a target no harder than molo lockbox, nearly 1/3 of all heros have innate ability to avoid it, most others buy items that allow them to avoid it as part of natural builds.

 

More often then not, cains ult results in doing reduced dmg, No other skill in the game backfires on the user a minimum of 50% of the time

 

I was being partially sarcastic because you said that lockbox makes Cain useless..... I do not think it's hard to deal with, but:

 

-Cain shouldn't use ult unless the enemy has no ways to deal with it

-hard to see anything in a big team fight

-still strong against bosses and towers

-CAIN DOES NOT HAVE TO RELEASE MISSILES if enemy is going to get lockboxed. He can wait for lockbox to time out, some missiles may hit the target and do nothing, but others are still going to be in the air by then, and I think will not miss

-Cain does not have to target one hero..... he is not Cyprus with 1 powerful nuke, he can fire missiles at different people at the same time. Sure each missile increases the damage of the next, so you will not do as much overall damage, but at least you will do more and extra damage

-Cain's other skills are strong enough to not require a mega-super ultimate. It is has perhaps some conditions that require it to be good, but then again, so do many other skills.

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If he waits for lockbox to time out, it gives the initially frozen target the chance to dodge the entirety of it which the only point of using the lockbox in the first place is to prevent the q r combo on an ally.

 

Yes cain is one of many heros strong with bosses, a bit below average in that regard, takes alot more for cain to solo levi than any of the other boss control heros

 

if hes trying to spread his dmg like that its not gunna be very effective you dont spread your dmg over an entire team unless your using aoe spells otherwise your going to lose the fight because the enemy is focusing you down 1-2 heros at a time, more often than not in a team fight cain doesn't ult because if he does it doesn't do anything.

 

 

Yes cains other skills do help make up for his crappy ulti leaving him pretty balanced in the scheme of things thank you for making my point for me.....

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No Like I said previously Cains pretty balanced. Doom just jumped on my characterization of his ulti being the most useless in the game (I concede novas is worse cain takes second place) and then I countered the points made against it

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If he waits for lockbox to time out, it gives the initially frozen target the chance to dodge the entirety of it which the only point of using the lockbox in the first place is to prevent the q r combo on an ally.

 

 

Erm, not it doesn't. You cannot use abilities when lockboxed, and cain can release missiles as soon as the enemy comes out of lockbox. Besides, lockboxing allies removes their damage output from the fight even longer... by the time Cain's freeze + your lockbox is over, a good 7 seconds has passed, and the team fight ended, most likely not in your favor. (5v4, and cain would have probably ulted an important hero too, so you were missing main carry/support/etc)

 

Yes cain is one of many heros strong with bosses, a bit below average in that regard, takes alot more for cain to solo levi than any of the other boss control heros

 

Bio, MK, Kerrigan and Unix (maybe shadow too, due to bug) are only ones that can take bosses as early as Cain can, and other than Bio, none of them do it as fast.... morever, cain does way more damage to enemy towers than almost any hero (queen, Kerri, mk, and bio and ling (with ult spawning countless lings that draw agro and give you hp through Khadarin) probably the only ones that can go 1v1 vs tower as well as Cain can, in terms of damage output before having to back up)

 

if hes trying to spread his dmg like that its not gunna be very effective you dont spread your dmg over an entire team unless your using aoe spells otherwise your going to lose the fight because the enemy is focusing you down 1-2 heros at a time, more often than not in a team fight cain doesn't ult because if he does it doesn't do anything.

 

it's not ideal, but at least its better than being out of the fight for 7 seconds. Even if you say that he is half as good as a regular hero when he spreads out his abilities like that, it would still be 4.5v4, and you'd use an lockbox on an ally instead of dangerous enemy.

 

Yes cains other skills do help make up for his crappy ulti leaving him pretty balanced in the scheme of things thank you for making my point for me.....

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