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Relative Stat Values


EKCO
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As I'm working on the new item spreadsheet, I'm also re-evaluating the value of relative attributes as the metagame as evolved since our last item update.

 

For each of the following attributes, list what you (personally or otherwise) believe to be their value in relation to each other. Take into consideration the metagame and the value of each attribute to all characters.

 

STR

AGI

INT

Shield

Health

Health Regen

Energy

Energy Regen

% Cooldown Reduction

% Time Scale

% Movement Speed

Flat Movement Speed

% Weapon Speed

Weapon Damage

% Crit Chance

% Crit Damage

Armor

% Spell Resist

% LIfesteal

 

AS AN EXAMPLE, a player may consider their list of equal stats to be:

 

10 STR

13 AGI

16 INT

125 Shield

135 Health

3 Health Regen

150 Energy

1.75 Energy Regen

3% Cooldown Reduction

1% Time Scale

2% Movement Speed

0.6 Flat Movement Speed

5% Weapon Speed

10 Weapon Damage

6% Crit Chance

4% Crit Damage

2 Armor

3% Spell Resist

2% LIfesteal

 

Meaning 10 STR = 12 AGI = 16 INT = 135 Shields, etc, etc, in terms of currency value (you would spend the same amount of minerals on each set of stats).

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Whoa. This is a mouthful, and there is a lot of arbitrary-ness. I'm going to split up stats into several groups, because I cannot understand a ratio of movement speed to health and so on.

 

100 STR = 85 AGI = 135 INT

 

 

100 Health = 100 Shields = 90 Energy = 0.4 Hp regen = 0.25 Energy Regen

 

10% CDR = 2% TS = 4% MS = 0. 35 Flat MS

 

10% AS = 25 WD = 4% Crit Chance = 1.5% Crit Damage = 6% Leech

 

1 Armor = 1.3 spell resist

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If you are trying to rebalance items like this you are just doing it wrong because you are ignoring several very important factors and you are ignoring how much beneficial stats are depending on the stage of the game (hp regen doesn't scale very well but is huge early game, and lifesteal scales very well on a lot of heroes yet isn't very good early game).

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If you are trying to rebalance items like this you are just doing it wrong because you are ignoring several very important factors and you are ignoring how much beneficial stats are depending on the stage of the game (hp regen doesn't scale very well but is huge early game, and lifesteal scales very well on a lot of heroes yet isn't very good early game).

 

EKCO didn't make any statements about item balance, just asked our opinion of the value of the stats. It would be too much for us all to attempt to compare stat worth at multiple different stages of the game. Instead, I'm sure elaborating on the specifics of the stat will help.

 

Ex.: If you think lifesteal isn't as good early game, then would you suggest that early-game items have a flat heal on them, like Doran's Blade from League of Legends?

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I disagree very strongly with this. The health regen gained from 10 Strength is pretty miniscule and not worth having nearly twice as much health gain.

Wait a second... I haven't checked in awhile, but 1 STR is 15 hp right? If not, just disregard my entire post. I swear 1 STR equals 15 hp somewhere...

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If you think lifesteal isn't as good early game, then would you suggest that early-game items have a flat heal on them, like Doran's Blade from League of Legends?

 

It reminds me of a discussion we had in the past and we ended up disagreeing with each other but I think that all AA heroes scale decently into late-game, and that lifesteal is generally a late-game stat. One way to fix it that you correctly identified is to create other sustain items than lifesteal items (such as flat heal, regen items, etc).

 

I'm going on a tangent here but I really dislike talents (and this is one of the important reasons why I dislike LoL's rune system) because they "fix" a hero's weakness, when there is a reason the hero has this weakness in the first place. Some heroes are supposed to be slow and kiteable, some others are supposed to be squishy and some others are supposed to have low armor by design, and giving the opportunity to compensate these weaknesses makes heroes similar to each other. The reason I'm talking about this is because of lane sustain, I feel one of the reasons why Kerrigan was played in previous versions and was ignored/judged boring is because her heroic passive really made a difference when you couldn't get infinite lane sustain with talents+leeching saber, but talents made every hero sustainable and removed specificities from heroes.

 

tldr : I think hero design and item choices should determin how much lane sustain you have and not which talents you choose

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It reminds me of a discussion we had in the past and we ended up disagreeing with each other but I think that all AA heroes scale decently into late-game, and that lifesteal is generally a late-game stat. One way to fix it that you correctly identified is to create other sustain items than lifesteal items (such as flat heal, regen items, etc).

 

I'm going on a tangent here but I really dislike talents (and this is one of the important reasons why I dislike LoL's rune system) because they "fix" a hero's weakness, when there is a reason the hero has this weakness in the first place. Some heroes are supposed to be slow and kiteable, some others are supposed to be squishy and some others are supposed to have low armor by design, and giving the opportunity to compensate these weaknesses makes heroes similar to each other. The reason I'm talking about this is because of lane sustain, I feel one of the reasons why Kerrigan was played in previous versions and was ignored/judged boring is because her heroic passive really made a difference when you couldn't get infinite lane sustain with talents+leeching saber, but talents made every hero sustainable and removed specificities from heroes.

 

tldr : I think hero design and item choices should determin how much lane sustain you have and not which talents you choose

 

I think that in some ways that's true and in others it isn't. In some cases I get talents to compensate for weaknesses -- like +15 weapon damage for Rancor or +7% movement speed for Kerrigan. For the most part, though, my talents are chosen to further existing strengths -- heavy offense talents and armor for carries, movement speed and cooldown reduction for initiators, etc. etc.

 

In some ways it makes heroes more similar, in others it makes them more different. I would say that a Brine with both movement speed talents is certainly specialized very differently than a Nova with neither.

 

I guess this isn't really the place to talk about talents though. I'd suggest that you make a thread on it, but we have tons on our plate already and I think it could probably wait until later.

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Another thing to consider is that the 3 base stats will have different value depending on the primary attribute of the hero. Strength is worth more to a Strength hero than to an Agility or Intelligence hero because, while the Agi or Int hero only gains HP and HP regen, a Strength hero gains that and weapon damage. And, conversely, raw HP is going to be more valuable to a non-strength hero because they can typically net more HP with raw HP stats than going through Strength and they get no damage benefit from Strength anyway.

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18 STR = 27 AGI = 27 INT

 

240 HP = 300 Shields for 4 seconds = 4 HP Regen = 400 Energy = 3 Energy Regen

 

10% CDR = 2% Timescale = 5% MoveSpeed = .15 Flat Movespeed = 10% Weapon Speed = 20 Weapon Damage = 13% Crit Chance = 25% Crit Damage = -9% Weapon Speed Single Target = -6% Weapons Speed AoE = -12% Weapon Damage Single Target = -9% Weapon Damage AoE = -8% Movespeed Single Target = -6% Movespeed AoE = 12% Physical Resist Single Target = 8% Physical Resist AoE = 10% Spell Resist Single Target = 6% Spell Resist AoE = 9% Physical Amp on DPS (ie: Contam) = 6% Physical Amp on Support (no such item) = 8% Lifesteal

 

Note all buffs/debuffs are assumed to last 2 seconds. Note certain effects are worth more on certain item roles

 

 

InterConversions: 18 STR = 240 HP = 10% CDR

 

Effectively all of these are equal... somewhat. depends on the item role and the combination of stats. Also note because of the exponential/logarithmic nature of certain effects (ie: anything that affects %'s [including agi]), that balance becomes fuzzier as numbers deviate from what is stated above

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I think the question would be better formulated as "If you were to spend your starting minerals (650) on one stat, how many points of that stat would you expect".

 

At a set mineral value, it becomes easier to discern relative importance, although it still does scale differently later into the game. The way it works now is that the PPU (price per unit) increases as we pack more stats into one inventory slot.

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EDIT: I typed this before you mentioned based on a 650/850 mineral scale IE starting item, I was looking at the stats in terms of game value

-----

 

Wow this is really really hard, my decision on items often comes down to their uniques or actives not just their base stats and what stats I value changes depending on what point of the game we are at and what stats I already have.

 

If I remember right 10 agi = 3% weapon speed, and 1.4 armor

10int = 70 energy and .15 regen

10 strength = 100 HP and .4 health regen

 

Making it very hard to compare the 3. I find that choosing between INT STR and AGI is often done based on my core hero.

If you are AA it goes AGI>STR>INT, if you are a caster it goes INT>STR>AGI if you are a tank it goes STR>INT>AGI

 

My best guess at a table trying to compare these things together:

 

10 Strength = 120 HP

10 AGI = 5% weapon speed

10 INT = 100 energy (really only applies early game after that INT is always better than regen and energy)

 

100 HP = 200/300 shields if they are temp (temporary shields are just plain bad compared to HP in most cases since they are really only useful for helping you survive a bad spot a little longer)

 

10 STR = 15 AGI = 20 INT (not 100% on that)

 

This may get me some heavy backlash but to me at least:

10 HPregen = 200 HP (can get organic if you need faster, 20 seconds is a long time to wait for 200 health)

10 energy regen = 250/300+ energy (assuming you have a decent energy pool)

(I honestly believe regen is pointless by itself as a stat on items since pots are super cheap and its always better to get INT or STR. No item over 1K should give regen in its stats unless it is a fairly amount. Also many items that give pure energy as opposed to INT feel like a waste later on as you pretty much always get more INT if you are relying heavily on energy to add damage to your abilities)

 

5% movement = 10% weapon speed = 20/30 weapon damage = 3% timescale (not 100% on that)

 

I am not sure how to ratio in crit and lifesteal or CDR. The first 20% or so of lifesteal (1 Item) is very useful for sustain and cutting back on pot use but after that its pointless to get more because its too easy to counter and not a good replacement for health. Crit damage boosting is great but only if you have 40-50% crit chance and crits themselves are only useful if you have both high weapon speed and damage (or are getting one of those stats with the item). CDR is always helpful but is more valuable if you have longer CDs than shorter ones.

 

There is little value to buying armor directly without other stats to back it up and I have never bought an item just for the armor it gives. (barbed for example stat wise not that helpful but the unique makes up for it although in the late game you hurt badly for not being able to upgrade it to something with better stats). Spell resist is very handy to buy but you generally only get it if you need it.

 

I would look into making more items upgradable into T5 items, many items are rarely used simply because they are only viable for part of the game due to lack of an upgrade option. Korpal Vanguard for example is a highly underused item because its good early on but late game adds little value. Most people prefer spell buffer for the larger spell resist because armor is fairly easy to get making the added physical resist not that big a deal later on. There are also many items that get ignored simply because they stats they provide are not all that helpful even with whatever ability they give.

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the unit i've used up there fits ~650 fairly nicely. Maybe 700-800 range. However, granted that starting items tend to be strong for their price, but build into nothing, i could see something like the above for a starting item, maybe even stronger.

 

 

keep in mind stats like -% weapon damage/flat weapon damage are less valuable because the dominance of on-hit effects atm (lightning rod, I'm looking at you)

 

As the above early game item provides best in class for what it costs for a DPS hero (health, attackspeed, diversified damage, aoe), it will be highly valued as it has the potential to snowball games. Hitting lightning rod as the first aeon fights happen when the opponents have their pants down with just a pneumatic carapace or hyperion incinerator means free teamfight assuming both teams play equally well.

 

 

basically you've asked for a break down of stats, as they are for the meta (to my estimate), but this won't help with changing the meta - which is what adding new items will invariably do.

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I think the question would be better formulated as "If you were to spend your starting minerals (650) on one stat, how many points of that stat would you expect".

 

At a set mineral value, it becomes easier to discern relative importance, although it still does scale differently later into the game. The way it works now is that the PPU (price per unit) increases as we pack more stats into one inventory slot.

 

Not only does it scale differently later into the game but as MK pointed out the value of one stat actually depends on which hero you are playing.

 

Also you have to consider that the set mineral value can change things, for the reason that Whale stated : some stats have an exponential/logarithmic nature (e.g stacking armor or sr once you already have 90% resist is worthless).

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In my opinion this is a wrong approach for several reasons :

- how much an item is worth depends on way too many factors for anyone to give an accurate answer to the question asked (which hero, against which heroes, how well does it synergize with my hero/team, with other items, how well will it scale, and many others I'm forgetting)

- rebalancing items will break the current hero balance which is way worse than having imbalanced items (having every AA hero going pyre is not as big a deal as having only 2 viable AA heroes, of course I'm exagerating but you see my point)

- it's the same old shap all over again, instead of making small changes and balancing slowly the game is going to be completely changed and it's just bad. I'm under the impression that I'm saying this for the 20th time on the forums but the way dota and lol got popular is by creating a game everyone liked and making small changes so no one would be lost and could still enjoy the game right after the patch, we're not switching to 7.0 but why the flob isn't it possible to take the 3 best items according to the community, nerf them, take the 3 worst ones, buff them (same with heroes ofc). Repeat every month, game is getting more balanced as time passes and no need for big changes.

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If we're talking about "from the start of the game" and disregarding hero skills that might fudge the numbers a bit more (ie. a hero with static on-hit damage might value attack speed more than weapon damage), maybe the following:

 

 

For a Strength Hero:

Assume average starting net weapon damage of 65 and starting net HP 800

 

 

+1 Strength, ~1.2% increase in survivability (HP regen negligible). 1.5% increase in DPS (diminishing returns). 1.2% more seconds * 1.5% more damage per second = 2.7% higher damage output limit

+1 Agility, ~0.4% increase in survivability. 0.29% increase in DPS (from current value). 0.4% more seconds * 0.29% more damage per second = 0.69% higher damage output limit

+1 Intelligence, slight increase in sustainability cap. Generally negligible. No significant damage output limit increase.

 

Based on this model, Strength is worth nearly 3 times as much as Agility when dealing with a Strength hero and Intelligence is near negligible. So maybe something like a nominal 0.1 value for Int, 0.69 for Agi, and 2.70 for Strength. Normalize the values and we get:

 

+1 Strength: 270 value

+1 Agility: 69 value

+1 Intelligence: 10 value

 

 

For an Agility Hero:

Assume average starting net weapon damage of 75 and starting net HP of 700

 

 

+1 Strength, ~1.2% increase in survivability. 1.2% higher damage output limit. 120 value

+1 Agility, ~0.4% increase in survivability. 1.6% increase in DPS (dynamic return rate). 2.0% higher damage output limit. 200 value

+1 Intelligence, negligible. 10 value

 

 

For an Intelligence Hero:

Assume starting net weapon damage of 65 and starting net HP of 650

 

 

+1 Strength, ~1.2% increase survability. 120 value

+1 Agility, ~0.4% increase survivability. 0.29% increase DPS. +0.69% damage output. 69 value

+1 Intelligence, 1.5% increase DPS. 150 value

 

 

Averages and Conclusions

 

Strength: 170

Agility: 113

Intelligence: 57

 

Cost Ratios:

For the same price, I'd expect 5 Str = 7 Agi = 14 Int. In other words, if you decide that a 400 mineral item should give 5 Strength (and nothing else), then another 400 mineral item should give 7 Agility and another 400 mineral item should give 14 Int. This is an OK metric for measuring early game values, break it down into percentage increase of survivability factored with percentage increase in DPS. If you're lasting 50% longer, you'd be expected to output 50% more DPS. If you're lasting 50% longer and doing 50% more DPS in addition, you'd be expected to net 125% more DPS. Work that for the other metrics and then divide a set value of minerals by the Value metric for each statistic and you have what an item of that mineral cost should give in terms of that statistic. For combined statistic items, it gets a little more fickle as you can't really just flat out add the two values. You'd have to calculate the net damage output limit increase value for that specific combination. For example:

+5% attack speed = +5% damage output, 50 points.

+100 HP (from base 700) = 14% increased damage output, 140 points.

--sum value, 190 points.

 

An item with both of these gives ~20% increased damage output value, or 200 points.

 

Higher gains of HP and Weapon Damage should come with lower increased costs since they have naturally diminishing returns. In other words, a single item with +X Strength should cost significantly less than the sum of two items with +A and +B strength where A + B = X. Attack Speed increases, on the other hand, have magnifying returns on DPS so you won't want to set up a situation where you could stack multiple, smaller ASPD bonuses for less cost than fewer higher-magnitude bonuses. One bonus of +10% aspd is a 10% boost to DPS but 5x bonuses of 2% each net you 10.4% boost. Also, keep in mind that this is entirely disregarding scaling on skills as that would add so many dimensions to the problem it wouldn't even be funny.

 

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ppu

1% ts - $200

1% spell leech - $200

1% ms - $100

6 agi - $100

6 str - $125

6 int - $90

1% generic dmg amp - $125

100 hp - $125 ~ $150

100 nrg - $90 ~ $110

5% leech - $250

5% wpn sp - $150 (not counting uniques weapon speed items tend to be less useful on there own)

25 wpn dmg - $500

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As I said, trying to calculate with those in consideration would be nigh impossible. Furthermore, there are some skills that scale with Weapon Damage. A few exceptional cases scale with things like agility or armor. Some heroes don't use mana. Skills have many different scaling ratios both from stats and the base power gained from leveling up the particular skill and mana-cost ratios would also need to be factored in. I didn't fail to take them into account, I purposely didn't.

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