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Tassadar need some fix


DarkTemplar
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I know today, that Tass has some "banned" build in INH, that's because of the items giving 5 minerals every 10 sec, wich stacks in tass allu... OK, let's see... at first thoose items granting minerals every 10s, has a UNIQUE passive ability that should NOT stack: UNIQUE passives, as their name says, should be UNIQUE (like pulse hammer and force of entrophy stacking too WTF -.-)

If you make all 3 items with this passive, if you use Tass, it will stack up to 6 times... that's 30 min every 10s... (and i'm playing Tass a lot and that's a bad thing to get fixed for me)

 

In the other hand, tass alucination should take everything from original tass (Elixirs, consumables etc.) because if you need elixir to get some detection, it's just so absurd that you will be always marked with the elixir animation on your head, and not mirror image... and same for -FRUITS, if you need to diferenciate heroes... that's just a fail!

 

The best way I see to make tass fair, is getting everything from real hero on mirror image, that's will be true for buffs (talents, passives from items, elixir, other consumibles...) but debuffs too, as this alucination will be good to be a perfect mirror image of tass (only with detection can be revealed or being smart and clicking them to see dmg etc.) the fair way will be if tass get debuffed, mirror image will be too. (maybie unfair if you want use swap to save your ass while silenced stunned, but I think it's fair if we think in the other buffs we get)

 

And HOW can we make this? pretty simple, just take variables all the time from the original hero, and all changes that will be applied to hero apply them to mirror images on real time. This will make this hero fair and better, but balanced at time (not to mention, that this changes will make hero much more flavourful as he can copy himself and not FAIL in the way xD)

 

Things that should be fixed as soon as possible:

 

- Stack of same UNIQUE abilities from items should be disabled.

- Tassadar mirror image critical need to: Get elixir image on head if real hero buy elixir, get fruits on head, if you use fruits to differenciate from other tass.

- Tassadar mirror images really need: Increase level and learn abilities from main hero, when that happens, get ALL buff/debuff that will affect main hero (per example pulse hammer slow debuff, and valor manifest stacks and Ian crystal buff and all 10min duration consumables)

- Tassadar mirror images will be fine to get: Heals from skills, potions, and items.

- It will be fine to "rework" bandit's artifice to work more or less like this changes, but cutting base dmg from main hero too (while in use), and maybie lasting even less time, and taking even more dmg (as we don't want x2 shadow/nova etc. owning everything in 20 seconds) and of course this images can't use skills or items.

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The fruits cannot be apply to his illusions us due to Galaxy editor limitations.

 

The illusion will not sync the level of the main unless you create a new one is also intended.

 

The illusion not reviving buff or true sight is intended.

 

I've never heard Tass bring banned in IH in NA so I assume you are from SEA. If you do find any concerns, the best way to express it is via mumble and I hope to see you there :)

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It should not stack, as they are 3 different items, they grant us 5 min every 10 sec, but one is used to get more HP, other to get HP/MP regen, and the other leeches HP (different items different uses, UNIQUE bonus OK, but not stacking... pulse hammer and force of entrophy got a nerf, and now people just make both as they stack)

 

The problem here, is that we can abuse this UNIQUE passive on Tassadar, and we are getting 30 mineral every 10 sec or to be more clear, 3 mineral every second (+income) this added to Q Tass (that is not bad to farm at all) makes Tass gear up soooooo fast, and that's why, some people say we can't play tass on INH and use thoose items, because, yes, it's a bit OP.

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The fruits cannot be apply to his illusions us due to Galaxy editor limitations.

 

The illusion will not sync the level of the main unless you create a new one is also intended.

 

The illusion not reviving buff or true sight is intended.

 

I've never heard Tass bring banned in IH in NA so I assume you are from SEA. If you do find any concerns, the best way to express it is via mumble and I hope to see you there :)

 

I'm EU, but I play in NA too, and as i'm playing a lot tass in pubs and people like tass, players are testing it, and getting this income items (as I do... OK, maybie i'm not the inventor, but I do it everytime and people see it) and average players are starting to "ban" this items on tass, and tass is going to be autoban pretty soon (as baning items is just WTF?)

Fruits can't be put on mirror images cause editor? I don't know this point at all, it's a pity if can't, but Elixir on pourpose? really? that's a BIG fail, as everyone can get elixir to detect you, but you cannot get one to detect if needed but loosing the essence of this hero, that's total unfair+++ if you do that, make all heroes that can cloack or burrow, cloack or burrow, but if they have elixir, make elixir mark visible all time so then will be easier to use AOE on them. Make a bit of justice! ¬¬

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Tassadar is fine, only thing that has issues are clones and much of what you mentioned is not a real problem.

 

The issues with clones are already very well laid out in:

 

http://www.aeonofstorms.com/index.php?/topic/3246-banditsclone-changes/

 

As for your gold 10 items concern:

 

Overall its very rare to see any hero go for 3 gold 10 items since it is a bit of a gamble. The choice to focus on 3 gold 10 items limits your overall damage and use in fights justifying the added increase in income, these items are designed to allow you to use all 3 but not be stackable individually it is NOT a bug. The items take awhile to pay for themselves and actually start making you money unless you are planning to build them into their later forms. Also clones are allowed to proc unique effects, there is NOT a bug/imbalance with clones procing unique effects and any build based on uniques is fair game. So yes if you are playing as tassadar you can benefit more from those items than most other heros but only if you don't really use your clone as much for its intended purposes. Everytime your clone dies you are in fact missing out on extra income you took the time to try to build for, but by not using your clone you are missing out on many easy kills/assists/split pushes most other tassadar players would get. In standard tass play your clone is dead most of the time because you are always using it to swap heros into your team or split push towers etc. It actually all balances out fairly well despite what people may think. You choose to macro and farm being careful with your clone to keep it alive or you choose to get early kills/assists and work with your team / take towers.

 

If you see a tass player using that build and think its "cheap" kill the clone to piss them off. Worst thing you can do vs tass is let him have free reign with clone anyways regardless of build since its really easy to melt creep with Q / lightning rod especially if both he and clone are there to proc. Its also stupid easy to split push with clones without any risk. I cant imagine that build comes up all that much in IH or is formally banned in any way since its very easily punishable by ranged/minion heros in lane because its not strong against heavy pressure. Its a build designed with farming in mind, not fighting. To really get good use out of that build you have to completely change your talents and the way you play giving up much of your offensive potential. Its a gamble you make assuming that you will be able to hold out and get better items later to make up for lost opportunities. It sounds "broken" on paper but when you put it to use it can have very skewed results based on the strength of your teammates and the skills of your opponents.

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Tassadar is fine, only thing that has issues are clones and much of what you mentioned is not a real problem.

 

The issues with clones are already very well laid out in:

 

http://www.aeonofsto...sclone-changes/

 

As for your gold 10 items concern:

 

Overall its very rare to see any hero go for 3 gold 10 items since it is a bit of a gamble. The choice to focus on 3 gold 10 items limits your overall damage and use in fights justifying the added increase in income, these items are designed to allow you to use all 3 but not be stackable individually it is NOT a bug. The items take awhile to pay for themselves and actually start making you money unless you are planning to build them into their later forms. Also clones are allowed to proc unique effects, there is NOT a bug/imbalance with clones procing unique effects and any build based on uniques is fair game. So yes if you are playing as tassadar you can benefit more from those items than most other heros but only if you don't really use your clone as much for its intended purposes. Everytime your clone dies you are in fact missing out on extra income you took the time to try to build for, but by not using your clone you are missing out on many easy kills/assists/split pushes most other tassadar players would get. In standard tass play your clone is dead most of the time because you are always using it to swap heros into your team or split push towers etc. It actually all balances out fairly well despite what people may think. You choose to macro and farm being careful with your clone to keep it alive or you choose to get early kills/assists and work with your team / take towers.

 

If you see a tass player using that build and think its "cheap" kill the clone to piss them off. Worst thing you can do vs tass is let him have free reign with clone anyways regardless of build since its really easy to melt creep with Q / lightning rod especially if both he and clone are there to proc. Its also stupid easy to split push with clones without any risk. I cant imagine that build comes up all that much in IH or is formally banned in any way since its very easily punishable by ranged/minion heros in lane because its not strong against heavy pressure. Its a build designed with farming in mind, not fighting. To really get good use out of that build you have to completely change your talents and the way you play giving up much of your offensive potential. Its a gamble you make assuming that you will be able to hold out and get better items later to make up for lost opportunities. It sounds "broken" on paper but when you put it to use it can have very skewed results based on the strength of your teammates and the skills of your opponents.

 

U see thing I mention are not a problem, and in that post u refeer, there are some of the same important things I mark.

BTW, I don't save replays, but I could share some replays just owning with that build on tass due to the bigger income, and if u think it's hard to get all 3 items fast, IDK how do you farm =/

BTW, other things u write are fine, but it's not so hard to use image and not suicide it, and NO, i'm not crying about it, i'm calling it ~OP as i'm using it and as people in INH argue about that, and that's why I call this, because I want to play tass in peace ;)

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Pretty sure somebody(probably Midknight) did some math to show that stacking gp10 items is not that cost efficient since they take quite a fair bit of time to pay themselves off, even with double the rate.

The thing is that all 3 items are good for tass, but for me it's pretty good u all don't think that's not fair, i'll tell INH players to come qq on forum

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I think you seriously misunderstand the purpose of Tassadar's clone.

 

If you use it just for trolling people, that's fine, but he basically does twice as much spell damage when it's up, along with getting a 2nd ult, alternating slows, etc.

 

These are hardly balance concerns.

When I waas an uber pro Tass :/ well when I played him I mean :D I never tried to tricky my enemies with clone I just used it as another char doubling my damage doing fast ultis or positioning.
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Pretty sure somebody(probably Midknight) did some math to show that stacking gp10 items is not that cost efficient since they take quite a fair bit of time to pay themselves off, even with double the rate.

 

shab did the maths its about 20 mins i believe to make all the money back half of that if you sell it and half again if you get double proccs from it. So after 5 mins tass is making money seems op

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700 / (0.5) = 700 * 2 = 1400 seconds = 23 minutes, 20 seconds for Leeching Saber to start generating income if not sold or built into anything

800 / (0.5) = 800 * 2 = 1600 seconds = 26 minutes, 40 seconds for Miner's Goggles

925 / (0.5) = 925 * 2 = 1850 seconds = 30 minutes, 50 seconds for Lost Treasure

 

Now roughly halve all those times for Tassadar (his clone's not /always/ active), and you get that about 7 minutes in Tassadar's already profitting from his Leeching Saber even if he doesn't make it a Hand of Mengsk and just sells it.

Takes him only about 8 minutes for Miner's Goggles if just sold

And about 8.5 minutes for Lost Treasure.

 

So it's not 5 minutes but it is only a bit more than that; making the mineral difference between the approximate numbers and what Yaldi said only about 60 minerals.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I haven't heard any IH banning a certain build, and especially not the one you mentioned. The key is to try and kill the clone and keep it on CD so Tass doesn't benefit from the items as much during the laning phase. If Tass just lets his clone sit he is limiting his own potential extremely.

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