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Maar scaling


Spooky
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I know it wouldn't be very popular idea, but I really think Maar mid-late game become ridiculous. His spell damage scaling is definitely too high. When single red ball can do over 1k damage to hero with some spell resist, there is sth wrong. Especially if u consider he can spam this shap every second. Problem with 'common knowledge' about Maar (on EU inh community at least) is that there is no good Maar. Hero requires a lot of practice if u want be effective with him - so u have to play many pubs. No one let u get Maar in inhouse if u can't play him well, especially when 'common knowledge' about this hero is very straight and can't be questioned. Many inhouse players playing pubs very rarely, thats why Maar isn't very popular hero. In effect there are better Maar players in pubs than in inhouses, so entire judgement is based on limited view of his true potential.

After last tourney EU INH community almost died. Recently we started playing pubhouses which slowly becomes inhouses. Current 'competitive' community contains many new players which played mainly pubs so far. One of new players - Omega - has a really good Maar. The best I've seen so far. Not only in aspect how he can utilize him, but also how he can farm with him and position himself behind the team which makes really hard to deal with, especially with decreased sight range. Once u can experience how effective Maar can be in teamfights u change your view about him. And problem aren't his abilities or passive. The problem is scaling and how much damage he can do late game once get itemized. And it isn't easy to dodge his damage orbs when u are stunned or slowed by his teammates. I'm trying to not think how effective he can be with Jackson or Drake together when if u get hit by 2-3 of Maar abilities u already dead. And it isn't easy to push against him when he can kill entire creep wave within 2 seconds.

 

So my conclusion is - Maar scaling into late game should be reduced, but his early game should be buffed. So his abilities can do more initial damage, but should have lower INT scaling. What especially makes him broken late game is Gravity Edge. Once I've lost 25% hp as Boros during spell storm active...

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This post seems very arrogant. Just because one guy (who you have never heard of and mainly plays public games) is very good at playing Maar and seems to do well against you in an inhouse game you want him nerfed? You said yourself it takes a lot of effort and skill to play that well, maybe if someone put that effort into another caster hero they could become equally 'op'.

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With farm you mean just red aura mid lol

 

I agree MAAR is good lategame. If you dont backdoor you just wont get to t3 since he needs 2 red balls to kill a wave.

He can even hold 2 lanes due to the long range of his red balls.

So a slight decrease in int scaleing is fair. Complete changes aren't necessary as "ih" is just getting used MAAR. Once these pubhouses develop we can further review it.

 

play against na :P

What is NA view on MAAR then ?
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Omega is one of the best Maars if not the best. But cant answer if he needs a nerf on int scaling . He needs aiming, positioning and one guy or some guys doing it nicely don't mean it needs a nerf.

 

LOL what the flob are you talking about, he just know how to farm, his APM is too low for a Maar player, knowing how to throw red balls doesnt make you good. Chinua is way better, lOvOl too.

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I play Maar a lot and was actually planning on posting on him. I think the intel is actually relatively fair just because he is so weak in the beginning of the game and can often make his team fall behind early by virtue of not contributing enough beyond holding a lane against units (which he is very good at with destruction aura).

 

What you missed, and what I think is truly OP, is his mass teleport cd combined the nerf to tower health. You can sit Maar on one of the spawn points, teleport all of the units on top of a tower and tp back to base before the enemy has time to react to what's happening. If you time the teleport right so your units aren't landing on a wave, they'll do 1/3-1/2 the damage on the tower by themselves - 2 or 3 wave drops and the tower falls.

 

I played a game last night where we were 4v5. We went down 12-2 kills and 6-1 in towers (all we had left was our base, they had all but one tower left). Two of our guys left convinced the game was over making it a 2v5. This game should have been totally impossible to win; any team that is good enough to gain that large of an advantage should never lose in that situation. Cow and I came back by having him hold the base and me just constantly dropping units on towers and tping back to base to help. I'm going to upload that replay when I get back to my gaming PC tonight along with a couple other replays that show this tactic in action (including one where my team lost every single base tower and all three supressors with nothing but the artifact left while they had every base tower still standing and we won by using maar's tele-drop).

 

I've tried to consider counters. I imagine with an organized team a few players would get the teleport talent. But the teleport talent channels for 8 seconds and has a 3 minute cooldown. That means maar can drop the units off and tp home to safety before they can get there. Mass teleport also has only 90 seconds on it's cooldown so he can drop units off too fast for one player to keep telporting in to kill the units. Camping a hero on a tower doesn't work either because there are always three potential targets to choose from. It's a battle of attrition where maar can just keep chipping away at different towers with the enemy being forced to guess which of the three he's going for next. Camping all three towers at once is not a viable strategy either, it spreads the team too thin and allows maar's team to take map control. Compounding the problem is that late game maar can go 1v1 with almost any hero so camping the tower often just results in the defending hero getting killed and the tower still taking damage. I suppose you could counter by ignoring maar and pushing the enemy base 5v4, but those 4 should be able to hold with the help of the high ground and a t3 tower. Plus, maar is only gone for 7 seconds anyway while he drops the units off. The best I could come up with is that a team with Cow or Rancor could use toilet/nuke to cancel the tp if they could get close enough (which is likely with their massive ranges).

 

Anyway, I encourage you to take a look at the replays when I upload them later. I'm very curious how you would counter this tactic other than by winning before Maar gets strong enough to pull it off (which is hard to do because a team with Maar can turtle so effectively).

 

EDIT: Replays below

http://www.sendspace.com/filegroup/5GEgdkyg96vCRQIkJCekzEJ1BzMWHjKy

 

Game1:

Was 2v5, down 17-12 in kills and 5 towers at the lowest point.

 

Game2:

This game lasted an hour and half and was very even but not particularly well played. Only part worth watching is the last 15 minutes to see the teleporting. This was one of my early maar games and the drops aren't as good as the first game but the comeback is bigger because we had lost every tower in our base and all 3 supressors.

 

Game3:

This last game turned into a 1v4 down 10-32 in kills and by 3 towers. I ended up losing but not before I wiped out every single one of their remaining towers and taking their artifact down to 2/3 health.

 

Keep in mind the purpose of these replays isn't to show off particularly good play, but rather to demonstrate that mass teleport is an OP skill when used to tele-drop units.

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Sigh. This is what im talking about. Why nerf a hero just because somebody does good with him in pubs.

I found Maar really good in pubs because he actually murdered people.

He was more ridicoulous with 200%INT Sap. That was fun going sap stars on the enemy shadow then killing him :D

Maar is fine, he is the only or one of the few casters who lasts his own in late game, and not early.

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LOL what the flob are you talking about, he just know how to farm, his APM is too low for a Maar player, knowing how to throw red balls doesnt make you good. Chinua is way better, lOvOl too.

when last time u have played against Omega's Maar? I can ensure u that he is more than simply throwing red balls, lol. Never saw Chinua's, but everyone know how bad Chinua in his teamplay and positioning. Maybe he can score kills fast, but usually he is committing suicide. Overexposed Maar mean's dead Maar. But when Maar is really playing with his team, its pain in the ass.

 

 

This post seems very arrogant. Just because one guy (who you have never heard of and mainly plays public games) is very good at playing Maar and seems to do well against you in an inhouse game you want him nerfed? You said yourself it takes a lot of effort and skill to play that well, maybe if someone put that effort into another caster hero they could become equally 'op'.

Seems u completely misunderstood my post. What I wanted to point out is if u playing against not bad composition with some CC then any confident enough Maar player will simply destroy your team, because of his abilities scaling and spamability. His damage output is just too high. Probably u never experienced it, because almost no one plays Maar in inhouses. His one ball do more damage than Cow Toilet... And fact that he is very hard to master made a hero very unpopular, so almost no one is aware how ridiculous this hero can be.

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I play Maar a lot and was actually planning on posting on him. I think the intel is actually relatively fair just because he is so weak in the beginning of the game and can often make his team fall behind early by virtue of not contributing enough beyond holding a lane against units (which he is very good at with destruction aura).

 

What you missed, and what I think is truly OP, is his mass teleport cd combined the nerf to tower health. You can sit Maar on one of the spawn points, teleport all of the units on top of a tower and tp back to base before the enemy has time to react to what's happening. If you time the teleport right so your units aren't landing on a wave, they'll do 1/3-1/2 the damage on the tower by themselves - 2 or 3 wave drops and the tower falls.

 

I played a game last night where we were 4v5. We went down 12-2 kills and 6-1 in towers (all we had left was our base, they had all but one tower left). Two of our guys left convinced the game was over making it a 2v5. This game should have been totally impossible to win; any team that is good enough to gain that large of an advantage should never lose in that situation. Cow and I came back by having him hold the base and me just constantly dropping units on towers and tping back to base to help. I'm going to upload that replay when I get back to my gaming PC tonight along with a couple other replays that show this tactic in action (including one where my team lost every single base tower and all three supressors with nothing but the artifact left while they had every base tower still standing and we won by using maar's tele-drop).

 

I've tried to consider counters. I imagine with an organized team a few players would get the teleport talent. But the teleport talent channels for 8 seconds and has a 3 minute cooldown. That means maar can drop the units off and tp home to safety before they can get there. Mass teleport also has only 90 seconds on it's cooldown so he can drop units off too fast for one player to keep telporting in to kill the units. Camping a hero on a tower doesn't work either because there are always three potential targets to choose from. It's a battle of attrition where maar can just keep chipping away at different towers with the enemy being forced to guess which of the three he's going for next. Camping all three towers at once is not a viable strategy either, it spreads the team too thin and allows maar's team to take map control. Compounding the problem is that late game maar can go 1v1 with almost any hero so camping the tower often just results in the defending hero getting killed and the tower still taking damage. I suppose you could counter by ignoring maar and pushing the enemy base 5v4, but those 4 should be able to hold with the help of the high ground and a t3 tower. Plus, maar is only gone for 7 seconds anyway while he drops the units off. The best I could come up with is that a team with Cow or Rancor could use toilet/nuke to cancel the tp if they could get close enough (which is likely with their massive ranges).

 

Anyway, I encourage you to take a look at the replays when I upload them later. I'm very curious how you would counter this tactic other than by winning before Maar gets strong enough to pull it off (which is hard to do because a team with Maar can turtle so effectively).

 

Just make it so that Maar can only mass teleport allied heroic units and not creeps. Solved.

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when last time u have played against Omega's Maar? I can ensure u that he is more than simply throwing red balls, lol. Never saw Chinua's, but everyone know how bad Chinua in his teamplay and positioning. Maybe he can score kills fast, but usually he is committing suicide. Overexposed Maar mean's dead Maar. But when Maar is really playing with his team, its pain in the ass.

 

I've played against Omega several times, and he is only playing Maar, so I know what I'm talking about. I never saw him using his auras despite of the red to farm.

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Just make it so that Maar can only mass teleport allied heroic units and not creeps. Solved.

 

It would be ashame if that were the solution. Teleporting a wave forward to reinforce a push (as opposed to just sitting them on top of a tower) is a very interesting and useful tactic that is not unbalanced. The advantage gained comes at the price of missing the wave you moved forward so there is potential for a push back. I would be more inclined to nerf the amount of damage creeps do to towers or only allow creeps to be teleported if the location is visible (not in the fog of war).

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To do 1000 damage from one of his spells he needs to farm up a lot of items and will be pretty damn squishy as well. Of course, you can say "well he just uses sap to heal himself" and I say well just taser his butt and be done with him. Hard int MAAR is a noob way to build him and extremely easy to counter just as hard int Unix is.

 

Now do I think he is a strong hero? Yes, but the way most people play him only scratches the surface of what makes him strong and the way most people play him only works in racking up kills against noobs (i.e. hard int). The counter to taser for MAAR is to build him tanky so he can do other things but obviously he wont be doing 1000 damage per heat wave plus or SAP with that kind of build, so that is what balances him out.

 

For example, one guy in a game recently was playing Shadow and complaining about someone else's MAAR on the other team who was doing a hard int build and I said, just buy a fracking taser like you always should on Shadow regardless of the enemy hero composition and he would not listen and repeatedly died against A MAAR with mostly int items and barbed plating healing himself with sap after sap and then complained about MAAR some more. The problem was not that MAAR was OP or the player playing MAAR was really good, rather it was our Shadow was using a noob build that lacked a taser to kill one of the easiest heros to kill in the game when they are silenced. His other problem was he was charging straight up the middle in teamfights when he should of been pushing the side lanes where Shadow does a lot better in forcing isolated engagements since he is both efficient at clearing lanes and taking down towers.

 

And besides MAAR's scaling has been nerfed many times. There was a time that with the right items (remember the old ihan that gave a ton of int and the 225% sap scaling) that MAAR could one shot squishy heroes with a double sap or even sometimes a single sap or a sap and one AA attack with a BHM handy. Of course taser was a ridiculous item back then as well and everyone got it so in spite of his strengths back then, many felt he was a terrible hero because of what taser did to him. Well taser may not give tons of attack speed and some weapon damage anymore and last 10 seconds with a 20 second cooldown, but it is still a super great item on AA heroes, especially against casters.

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To do 1000 damage from one of his spells he needs to farm up a lot of items and will be pretty damn squishy as well. Of course, you can say "well he just uses sap to heal himself" and I say well just taser his butt and be done with him. Hard int MAAR is a noob way to build him and extremely easy to counter just as hard int Unix is.

 

I don't totally buy this. First, just going with Ihan + Nitro + Yamato will take Maar over 3K health at level 18. He's squishy early but only slightly squishy in the late game, even with a hard INT build. As far as taser goes, Maar generally has a speed advantage if he's moving around with the timescale aura active (which should always be up once energy is no longer a problem and he's moving out in the open) - this speed advantage can be massive if he's also got the speed talent, zeal, and/or gravity edge. The aura also reduces the time that taser lasts by 11%. Throw in his passive skill to hack down vision and it's pretty easy to kite away when someone tasers (assuming you've checked their items and are expecting it) and re-engage once it wears off.

 

In a team battle, INT maar can sit so far back that getting to him to taser is damn near suicide.

 

Not saying that hard INT maar is always the best way to play him, but I think it is totally viable and often the best strategy against a lot of compositions and in a variety of situations.

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I myself never bothered to learn Maar well. The most I ever did was consult the person whose Maar I though best (lOvOl) on item build, and followed it as well as the described playstyle as best I could. ofc, to be sure I tried a few builds of my own, and some plain int-stacking. What I found was this: maar has good creep clearing potential, and good hero killing potential, but the thing he is absolutely unparalled in is just basic set-up of plays. Frost wave makes any pluck or skillshot incredibly easy, vision limiting passive makes heroes that are centered around avoiding damage and building glass cannon (for example Darpa) have to put themselves at way greater risk than they realize. At any given time, Maar can unleash an absolutely evil unending wave of regular heat waves, which forces everyone in the area to go to a full retreat. People often try to pick Maar off first, and are as a result owned by DST. Red aura is incredibly useful as an essentially free blocker of a huge portion of the battle-field, because people instinctively move away from it as fast as possible. Other than Jackson, and Zeratul, no other hero can change the locations of the enemy team. I've played mind games by deliberately missing several heatwaves, or placing red aura so that the enemy can easily dodge it, at the expense of greater clumping up, at which point I can hit the whole lot of them with a single heat wave plus or frost wave.

 

The build I now think the best is a hybrid, enough int to be a nuisance, enough defense to not be taken lightly.

 

I suggest the final item build to be: (including full Ihan Stacks)

 

 

 

Gravity Edge, Argus Crystal, Yamato Reactor, Parallax Generator, DST, Organic Carapace.

 

A slightly troll Maar item is Bandit's Artiface, but because he limits vision so much, Maar can actually get away with it.

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Gravity Edge, Argus Crystal, Yamato Reactor, Parallax Generator, DST, Organic Carapace.

DST is an interesting call usually ppl go nitrogen retro for the extra int and the fact it combos with his auras and skills, but it would be 2x the slow if they AA you and much of maar play comes down to kiting in the end.

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DST is an interesting call usually ppl go nitrogen retro for the extra int and the fact it combos with his auras and skills, but it would be 2x the slow if they AA you and much of maar play comes down to kiting in the end.

 

Naw, I like my DST Maar. If you wanna replace some other item with Nitro, go ahead, so long as it's not grav edge. Sometimes I don't need the OC, so I get nitro instead..... but I mean frost wave brings the enemy to a standstill already, and other than basic heat wave, I use frost wave the most.

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