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Bandits/Clone changes


akanna
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So I would like to make a couple of suggestions given that pretty much nobody really uses bandits artifice these days. Some of these suggestions are for clones in general since tassadar also has a clone.

 

General Clone Suggestions:

1) Make clones regen mana in pool and make them be affected by regen items.

2) Make clones copy ALL existing buffs on a hero (truesight, talents, pots, etc)

3) Make it so that a clone using abilities/attacking does NOT reveal the location of the real hero

 

Bandits Specific Suggestion:

 

Since bandits is rarely used and on hit items have been taking a pounding lately (prye, FOE in the new beta, etc), I think it would be nice to rethink how bandits works a bit and what it's good for. Why not add either a 20/30% base movement buff to clones (maybe less if talent buffs are fixed) or give clones a "sprint" ability that uses their mana bar and allows them to charge forward with increased movement speed for a period of time (again 20/30 or so) that can be setup to be either a 1 time use or multiple depending on CD compared to clone lifespan. At present since clones do not receive talent buffs they move stupidly slow compared to other heros and are not really all that viable to use. Even if that was fixed, if they moved significantly faster than their base version they would be useful for chasing down fleeing/teleporting enemies, making tower dives, and possibly even limited split pushing even if you weren't doing an on-hit build giving people far more reasons to want to use the item as part of their build.

 

I feel like bandits would be used a lot more with these changes since clones would actually get detection and talents, and the speed boost/ability would open up lots of new playstyles around it. As is I cannot recall the last time I saw someone use bandits in game, even tass players don't seem to get it anymore.

 

Thoughts?

 

EDIT:

Would also settle for bandit clones AOE self destruct on death mostly because it would be hilarious, credit to xNOVAxPRIMEx for that

 

But I really do think the speed boost is the best way to give the item more utility even though it would be pretty funny to watch a team pull a clone and have it blow up in their face. So much troll power :)

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2 creates complication and 3 are is at the very least improbable, if not impossible.

 

reasons for 2: clones replicate all item effects and passives, however buffs/debuffs/behaviors would serve as a complication. For a start, you would need to replicate ALL behaviors on the original and transfer them to the clone. So if the original is molotoved, the clone is too. If the original is Marked, so is the clone. There are positive aspects too, such as talents and levi buff, or auras not being held by the original but affecting it too. In other words, it's a lot of work, for minor gain, and will probably have horrible side effects too.

 

3 requires changing blizzard's vision mechanic. As of right now, if you are taking damage in SC2, you gain knowledge of the location of the army in question. Not vision, but at least you know where those god damn Tempests or Siege Tanks, or even Brood lords are at. I suppose you can add a "cloaked" behavior for when clone attacks and person is out of range (because cloaked units' location is not revealed) but again..... so much trouble for so little gain.

 

Now, Bandit's Artifice needs a buff, that is certain, however I think more of a stats on item and clone, than on mechanic.

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3 requires changing blizzard's vision mechanic. As of right now, if you are taking damage in SC2, you gain knowledge of the location of the army in question. Not vision, but at least you know where those god damn Tempests or Siege Tanks, or even Brood lords are at. I suppose you can add a "cloaked" behavior for when clone attacks and person is out of range (because cloaked units' location is not revealed) but again..... so much trouble for so little gain.

The clone is considered to be a separate unit though, so it should really be considered not you for all intensive purposes outside of kills and assists and should not reveal the real you when you are not even remotely close by.

Like if the real you is shopping, how does it make sense for a clone attacking near T1 towers to reveal that?

 

Agree with you that buffs and debuffs could get messy, but it wouldn't be that hard to do overall you just mirror things as is.

Honestly It would be fine if it was specifically talents and truesight that carries over and no other buffs or debuffs as those are the real issues, and would not really result in any headaches

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one thing that makes the clone weak is the fact that even if you have passive skills. the clone doesn't have any skill points put in. so heros like shadow stepping strikes. zera back stab, kerri bounce and dot, and so on. all the clone is good for is if you have high physical damage and attack speed. or as a dummy to troll ppl in.

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one thing that makes the clone weak is the fact that even if you have passive skills. the clone doesn't have any skill points put in. so heros like shadow stepping strikes. zera back stab, kerri bounce and dot, and so on. all the clone is good for is if you have high physical damage and attack speed. or as a dummy to troll ppl in.

 

Clone can also be useful in other ways. If a person has to kill you really fast. Going up a hill and using it may trick them for a sec giving you time to kill them.

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I think having detection is a little much

Why shouldn't it have detection if you do?

 

Not having sight is an instant red flag that tells people which one is the real you and they will completely ignore your clone and focus fire you in fights. This is especially unfair when you play tassadar since you have to choose between having sight and having your clone actually be useful in fooling people and taking damage for you. It also makes clones far less useful because they don't get the benefit of providing sight to your allies while you are off in another lane or visiting the shop and it makes them worthless as scouts since you cant even send them to pick off wards etc, check for mines, or spot a unix/bio/ghost etc creeping in the jungle.

 

Play tassadar for awhile and you will understand how frustrating it is that clones don't have sight when you do, if the real you isn't around your clone is massively gimped because he cant cast any spells on cloaked heros or pull them into the team and people know its not the real you so you cant fool them into moving out of position anymore once you've gotten sight (which is not an optional item to get if there are cloaked units). Its a huge problem. Bandits clones should also have sight if you do for the simple fact they are clones, regardless of the fact they only last about 30 seconds or so. If you think about it this would give people another use for bandits since they can scout better with it, plus people would have to actually attack the clone to know its fake as opposed to just knowing based on the lack of sight (you can tell the clone is taking too much damage to be real but that usually takes at least a few seconds).

 

Clones are meant to fool people(and add some damage), cant do that if the lack of sight = big sign that says IM A CLONE IGNORE ME

And not buying sight just to make your clone able to fool people would be just plain retarded.

 

I use my tass clones to bait ults or get people to waste skills all the time, its a great way to get them distracted so you can take them out while stuff is on CD. But this stops working once you get sight since only an idiot cant spot the lack of a cross above the clones head. (the whole clones reveal the real you when attacking thing is lame too but at least that doesn't happen until after they have taken the bait and engaged it).

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so if the problem is the cross on the head can't we remove it instead make the clones copy it?

 

and add talents to clones?

But the cross is needed to denote sight so you can tell if someone who has it can see you......

And as mentioned the issue is not just the cross letting people know which is the real you, clones are far less useful if they do not get sight when you have sight because they are forced to be near you to see cloaked units. If clones get sight whenever you have it, then clone play becomes more viable because sending your clone with your team provides them with detection while you are off somewhere else, and clones can be used to scout around map taking out wards etc.

 

Clones should get talent buffs and sight because they are clones of you as you are just as they mimic your hp shields etc.

The fact that not having sight sells you out as to which is the clone is just another reason why they should get it.

 

Fruits I understand because its a limitation of the editor itself, but there's no good reason they cant have sight.

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Why shouldn't it have detection if you do?

 

Not having sight is an instant red flag that tells people which one is the real you and they will completely ignore your clone and focus fire you in fights. This is especially unfair when you play tassadar since you have to choose between having sight and having your clone actually be useful in fooling people and taking damage for you. It also makes clones far less useful because they don't get the benefit of providing sight to your allies while you are off in another lane or visiting the shop and it makes them worthless as scouts since you cant even send them to pick off wards etc, check for mines, or spot a unix/bio/ghost etc creeping in the jungle.

 

Play tassadar for awhile and you will understand how frustrating it is that clones don't have sight when you do, if the real you isn't around your clone is massively gimped because he cant cast any spells on cloaked heros or pull them into the team and people know its not the real you so you cant fool them into moving out of position anymore once you've gotten sight (which is not an optional item to get if there are cloaked units). Its a huge problem. Bandits clones should also have sight if you do for the simple fact they are clones, regardless of the fact they only last about 30 seconds or so. If you think about it this would give people another use for bandits since they can scout better with it, plus people would have to actually attack the clone to know its fake as opposed to just knowing based on the lack of sight (you can tell the clone is taking too much damage to be real but that usually takes at least a few seconds).

 

Clones are meant to fool people(and add some damage), cant do that if the lack of sight = big sign that says IM A CLONE IGNORE ME

And not buying sight just to make your clone able to fool people would be just plain retarded.

 

I use my tass clones to bait ults or get people to waste skills all the time, its a great way to get them distracted so you can take them out while stuff is on CD. But this stops working once you get sight since only an idiot cant spot the lack of a cross above the clones head. (the whole clones reveal the real you when attacking thing is lame too but at least that doesn't happen until after they have taken the bait and engaged it).

 

If the clone had sight, it means you get to use sight for free in another lane to help if someone is playing a cloaked hero or using shinobi or something.. doesn't seem fair if the clone has sight as well. I'd be okay if you had to buy sight again for the clone, but not buy once and have/

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If the clone had sight, it means you get to use sight for free in another lane to help if someone is playing a cloaked hero or using shinobi or something.. doesn't seem fair if the clone has sight as well. I'd be okay if you had to buy sight again for the clone, but not buy once and have/

 

I think it would be a waste of money to specificly buy bandit's artifice so you have special True Sight. Are you really wasting so much money on true sight that you have to use 5000 Minerals just for an item that gives you sight? Honestly. It cost 5000 Minerals + 600 for true sight to counter a 600 Mineral Item. I don't see your logic on that. And most people would say that Shinobi style gives more favorable stats than bandit's artifice for 1000$ less. On top of that, the clone is really easy to kill. You can see the clone coming to as it has to mobilitity or really has no threat at all, so even with true sight, it is almost useless for that aspect. If bandit's artifice had detection, it would really annoy me if that was the only buff. I personally would rather have it buffed by +5 Stats then having the clone get detection. [Disregarding the part where the clone look the same to the real person because of animation. Just talking purely about detection or not].

 

 

In fact, if i really forced someone to buy bandit's artifice to counter my cloaking, i would be entirely happy to trade of their 5000 minerals [+ more for truesights] for my 2200 minerals. In addition, Bandit's Artifice is a terrible item early game with nearly no benefit. By the time you have Bandit's artifice, majority of your entire team should be near max items, and should be buying true sight itself.

 

Bandit's artifice is my favorite item, but i ONLY get it late game, usually around the time i start purchasing true sight if there is a stealth hero.

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