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Tosh Spectres


Dietdrpepper
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Since there is another topic on denying I figured I would bring this up. Tosh is currently the only character who can use his minions to deny. This is a problem as his minions are relatively tanky in comparison to the other minions in the game while also being easily aquired since there are so many creeps now. The biggest problem is that any tosh with half a brain can deny most if not the whole wave mid while still being able to last hit most of the wave. This means he gains a HUGE advantage vs most if not all mid characters. The arguement from the design team for this is that tosh has to last hit for spectres unlike other characters with minions. I would say in patches prior to the creep wave spawner being reduced this would be true but in the current iteration of the game creeps are everywhere and obtaining spectres is almost effortless. I am in no way claiming Tosh is over or under powered in any way but I think this mechanic can be gamebreaking when the opposing team has a tosh which is able to gain 1-2 levels of xp/$ ahead of the other team's mid pretty much effortlessly. Just my opinion though.

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He gets wrecked mid by maar. Between destruction aura, heatwave, and frostwave the best he can do is collect his spectres piecemeal and sit them behind the tower for safe keeping. I don't play Kerri much but I suspect a good one could do a number on the spectres too.

 

Doesn't make your argument wrong. Just pointing out that Tosh has bad matchups mid too.

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Unix should destroy tosh, virgil, toxi can too, ere can win 1v1 as well.

Unix won't destroy tosh. Unix just has ulti as main source of dmg and tosh has 5 stuns. If you manage to fungal all the specters it wont 1 shot them but will kill them with the dot. So he can still use his 4 spectrestuns so avoid getting killed. And lategame tosh with timesplitter+stunbaton and unix shuts down 100%
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Im not talking about 1v1. Talking about 1v1 on the mid. The whole point of this topic is that tosh is OP mid. Its not, some heroes can stop him pretty easily. Tosh doesnt really have a good aoe vs marines, so same lvl unix should win the lane vs tosh. Yes, unix will die late game very fast, but unix is pretty bad at ganking vs good players anyways

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Without AoE isn't easy to lane against Tosh. U just have to harass his spectres all the time and keep them in low number as much as u can. Otherwise u get simply outplayed. And I don't agree with old change which made unix and king minions to unable deny creeps. Denying isn't as painful as it used to be and still denying is part of individual skill. Difference between Tosh and King/Unix is that their minions are more powerful, but in other hand not free.

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Tosh isn't hard to play, really. He just need little bit practice to chain stunning properly. U just need to feel timings, like in lockbox+molo case which can u learn during few games. Reason why Tosh is so underplayed in pubs is because players which can play him well are aware how lame it would be in that environment.

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Most people seem to be stating that characters with aoe should be able to handle tosh mid. I would disagree. His minions spell resist is very high. A fully geared unix fungal will not kill his spectres completely. Also, a good tosh will micro his spectres so that aoe wont help all that much. Trying to range him from creeps is tough with stuns/terrezine. Like I said in my original post, I feel allowing his spectres the ability to deny creeps gives him an unfair advantage mid. Otherwise I feel he is fine.

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Off the top of my head, Grunty, Kerrigan, Dustin, Vergil, Bio, Rancor (at lvl 6), Nova (with demigod), Unix, MK, Cyprus, Cow, SS, Lurker, Queen, Null, and Jakk can all at least hold their own mid against Tosh as long as they regularly kill Tosh's spectres. Yes, you usually can't wipe his spectres with one spell, but it's no trivial thing to respawn 4 spectres as Tosh. Also, Nova with demigod will eat Tosh's spectres for breakfast (generating a new charge of demigod each time she kills a spectre, too).

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Wait... How much HP does specters have? There is no way a rancor is sitting there AAing specters... Especially not one shoting them. Or are you building rancor AA? I am so confused :(

 

In a teamfight, a tosh will definitely counter a rancor, unless positioning is in favor of rancor of course.

 

Oh I thought you meant in lane. My talents and items allow Rancor to have the highest level 1 damage AA. By level 5 (3 specters max), I can have about 150 weapon damage, without breaking the bank.

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