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Barbed Platting too strong


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With the recent change in lifesteal and crits, armor-stacking tanks with Barbed Platting are invulnerable. They have too much natural hp to be killed with spells, and AA heroes are going to kill themselves before they can kill the tanks. Now you may say, tank's function is to take damage, so you should ignore them. But most tanks deal damage rivaling agility AA heroes, or fully-int stacking spellcasters. How do you ignore Vorpal, Micro, Aksha, Mandrake, Marine King, Balrog, LZ, Balrog? Before last patch, in the tourney, during drafts, the first 3 picks for each team were always tanks, with possible exception of Vergil or Toxi. AA were not even considered till 4 pick per team. Right now, AA are that much worse. The only 2 real agility AA heroes that are played are Nova and Darpa, and only because they can wipe out towers really fast lategame, as well as run away easily. Not because they are good in PvP. Pick Darpa for instance, and go 1v1 any of the above heroes. Yeah, yeah, team game, tanks tank, aa's sit in back, whatever. But tanks have even more potential in a teamfight, because they have AoE that most AA's don't. Drake, Micro, Vorpal, Mirine King, Kerrigan, they all act better in a teamfight than say Shadow or Nova. The only way that AA's are worth their spot on a team is when they sit in the jungle for 30+ mins, come out with 200+ creep kills and full items, and use that item advantage (because anyone that's not jungling will be WAAAYYY behind on creep kills, and therefore money) to wipe everything out. Even so, the best tanks can still take them easily. Erekul, Micro, Mandrake, Aksha and LZ. EIther they are banned, or you get them on your team, or you hope to god that the other team won't want them for reasons unknown to anyone.

 

AA's are assassins. They are supposed to kill anything out of position in a 1v1. MAYBE a fed Boros can handle a tank in a 1v1, right now, and only if he surprises the tank. Maybe Zeratul can deal enough damage through backstab and ult to win that fight, but it will be close. Anyone else hasn't got a hope. And I'm not even talking about glass cannon Pyre, Massume, BHM, C Shard, HoM, Timesplitter builds that pubs are so prone to. A seriously tanky agility AA, with 3.5+ K hp will still not be able to take a 5+ K hp tank such as Aksha, Erekul, Drake, LZ, Tychus, etc if they have just a barbed and some other armor items. If they have executioneer's ax, it will be that much worse.

 

Now, I'm not saying revert leech back to what it was. Far from it, I support this change. But nerf Barbed Platting percentage to compensate, as it is too good, and AA heroes are actually taking more damage than they put in and leech out combined.

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Barbed is only strong if an AA hero uses a bad build. To counter barbed you need one lifesteal item and 2-3 spell resist items as if you have 50% spell resist, barbed only does 25% feedback which even with post-mitigated lifesteal won't do a lot.

 

For instance these days when using a DPS build on Shadow and Zeratul, I always have taser and sliptyde which combined is 53% spell resist and then a darwin's at some point (leeching saber before then) that gives enough leech to make barbed a non-issue even if you get hit by the almighty axe. Of course, I see people building AA heroes with all lifesteal items (easily countered with axe), and no spell resist and then cry about barbed being too strong when they have access to an item that renders casters useless against assassin heroes (taser) and an item that gives you as much spell resist as spell buffer with other nice ancillary stats such as agility, movement speed when attacking, and solid spell damage (sliptyde).

 

I play all heroes and get barbed on a lot of them when going tanky caster, but never have any problem with anti-AA heroes if I use the right build on an AA hero. I mean it is amazing how funny Drake players cry imbalance if you simply taser them and AA them with good AA gear and solid spell resist to back you up. At least in pub play, the name of the game is still all about gap closing and silence which any hero can get if they don't have it natively in the form of warp shard/SHC and taser.

 

Oh and this is really only to Doom because I respect him and can have civilized discussions with him, unlike many other people on this forum so don't take this post as a sign of impending activity, especially since I wouldn't want to throw a wrench in the wonderful and thought provoking circle jerk discussions of the inhausers about who is T1 and T2 or whether or not the latest tourney was a joke due to such a small number of real teams actually competing (especially in NA).

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Barbed is only strong if an AA hero uses a bad build. To counter barbed you need one lifesteal item and 2-3 spell resist items as if you have 50% spell resist, barbed only does 25% feedback which even with post-mitigated lifesteal won't do a lot.

 

For instance these days when using a DPS build on Shadow and Zeratul, I always have taser and sliptyde which combined is 53% spell resist and then a darwin's at some point (leeching saber before then) that gives enough leech to make barbed a non-issue even if you get hit by the almighty axe. Of course, I see people building AA heroes with all lifesteal items (easily countered with axe), and no spell resist and then cry about barbed being too strong when they have access to an item that renders casters useless against assassin heroes (taser) and an item that gives you as much spell resist as spell buffer with other nice ancillary stats such as agility, movement speed when attacking, and solid spell damage (sliptyde).

 

I play all heroes and get barbed on a lot of them when going tanky caster, but never have any problem with anti-AA heroes if I use the right build on an AA hero. I mean it is amazing how funny Drake players cry imbalance if you simply taser them and AA them with good AA gear and solid spell resist to back you up. At least in pub play, the name of the game is still all about gap closing and silence which any hero can get if they don't have it natively in the form of warp shard/SHC and taser.

 

Oh and this is really only to Doom because I respect him and can have civilized discussions with him, unlike many other people on this forum so don't take this post as a sign of impending activity, especially since I wouldn't want to throw a wrench in the wonderful and thought provoking circle jerk discussions of the inhausers about who is T1 and T2 or whether or not the latest tourney was a joke due to such a small number of real teams actually competing (especially in NA).

 

I dunno though... I mean you are effectively forced into a whole build because of one item. I mean assume you have what you said you have (Darwin's, Taser, Sliptide), this gives good spell resist, but not damage or lots of health. So now you have 3 item slots to spend on actually DPS items (and at least one additional str item, preferably). So assume you also get Organic/FoE to be on the safe side and not be killed by a spellcaster (high spell resist is almost pointless if you haven't high hp, especially if enemy has gravity edge). That leaves you somewhat tanky, but currently you deal damage only from sliptide and the 50 bonus from Darwin's. You are not attacking really fast, so you need another weapon speed item (and most of these are not ideal). You can get Timeslitter, Pyre, Lightning Rod, or Stun Batton. Last item should be Massume, since it is the best DPS item in the game, and here we have your build:

 

Darwin's, Massume, Taser, Sliptide, OC/FoE, and a weapon speed item.

 

Massume gives +100 weapon damage, about 30 from agility, darwin's is + 50, weapon speed item also gives 30-50 so you have about +210-260 additional damage, and most agility heroes have natuarally about 150 damage. That is about 350 physical damage, + some spell damage per attack when maxed. Not bad, but could be way better, and leaves YOU somewhat vulnerable to AA. These items are highly expensive, and none give immediate benefit in terms of kills (no matter which item you rush for, you will have difficulty killing anyone with it). You are therefore not likely to get fed any faster than the enemy tanks, which will have something like:

 

Shrapnel Cloak, Barbed, SHM, E Mantle, OC/FoE, Ax. Not to mention Korhal, and Spell Buffer, if this is a competent IH team. I don't fancy your chances as Shadow even if you build it like that, against some armor-heavy tank like Aksha.

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I thought RNG had fixed this? Cuz in patch notes it said "fixed problems described in this thread: and it was the thread to armor, leech and crits?

 

But just using Hive Symbiosis I've noticed I heal ALOT less from friendly units than I use to...

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The best change I can see towards barbed is moving it's unique to a higher tier item. 50% damage permanent damage reflection is too good of a passive for an item with the low cost of 2015.

 

As to armor, I do think Spooky's suggestion of raising it to .98^armor is a good idea.

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I've gotta say that barbed is used in ALL tank builds. Instantly, you know its probably a bit strong.

Now you say its too powerful? I dont know about that. The problem with tanks is that you HAVE to get barbed... worthless hp otherwise. I think a slight nerf would be fine if a few more items for tanks to fight AA heros were made. I do agree that barbed is a very good item atm.

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As I stated previously, I feel that the passive of Barbed is two strong for such a low cost. So here is my two cents on what should be done to change barbed to make it better for tanks and at the same time less OP.

 

Removed current barbed and instead add:

 

Thorned Plating:

:BarbedPlating:

Ingredients: Cybernetic Implants, Crystal Bark

Cost: 2015

 

20 STR

5 armor

[unique] deals 25 Spell damage to enemies when attacked. Does not stack with Barbed plating.

 

Barbed Plating:

90x55x2-Inv_chest_plate_25.png

Ingredients: Thorned plating, Xel'Naga Carapace

Cost: 4000

 

30 STR

8 armor

450 Health

[unique]: Reflects 50% of all physical damage (before mitigation) taken as spell damage. Does not stack with Thorned Plating.

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With the recent change in lifesteal and crits, armor-stacking tanks with Barbed Platting are invulnerable. They have too much natural hp to be killed with spells, and AA heroes are going to kill themselves before they can kill the tanks. Now you may say, tank's function is to take damage, so you should ignore them. But most tanks deal damage rivaling agility AA heroes, or fully-int stacking spellcasters. How do you ignore Vorpal, Micro, Aksha, Mandrake, Marine King, Balrog, LZ, Balrog? Before last patch, in the tourney, during drafts, the first 3 picks for each team were always tanks, with possible exception of Vergil or Toxi. AA were not even considered till 4 pick per team. Right now, AA are that much worse. The only 2 real agility AA heroes that are played are Nova and Darpa, and only because they can wipe out towers really fast lategame, as well as run away easily. Not because they are good in PvP. Pick Darpa for instance, and go 1v1 any of the above heroes. Yeah, yeah, team game, tanks tank, aa's sit in back, whatever. But tanks have even more potential in a teamfight, because they have AoE that most AA's don't. Drake, Micro, Vorpal, Mirine King, Kerrigan, they all act better in a teamfight than say Shadow or Nova. The only way that AA's are worth their spot on a team is when they sit in the jungle for 30+ mins, come out with 200+ creep kills and full items, and use that item advantage (because anyone that's not jungling will be WAAAYYY behind on creep kills, and therefore money) to wipe everything out. Even so, the best tanks can still take them easily. Erekul, Micro, Mandrake, Aksha and LZ. EIther they are banned, or you get them on your team, or you hope to god that the other team won't want them for reasons unknown to anyone.

 

AA's are assassins. They are supposed to kill anything out of position in a 1v1. MAYBE a fed Boros can handle a tank in a 1v1, right now, and only if he surprises the tank. Maybe Zeratul can deal enough damage through backstab and ult to win that fight, but it will be close. Anyone else hasn't got a hope. And I'm not even talking about glass cannon Pyre, Massume, BHM, C Shard, HoM, Timesplitter builds that pubs are so prone to. A seriously tanky agility AA, with 3.5+ K hp will still not be able to take a 5+ K hp tank such as Aksha, Erekul, Drake, LZ, Tychus, etc if they have just a barbed and some other armor items. If they have executioneer's ax, it will be that much worse.

 

Now, I'm not saying revert leech back to what it was. Far from it, I support this change. But nerf Barbed Platting percentage to compensate, as it is too good, and AA heroes are actually taking more damage than they put in and leech out combined.

 

Completely agree with pretty much all points here. I have found myself picking boros these days in pubs just because his ss gives me the opportunity to take out someone with barbed without killing myself.

 

It gets worse when say a tanky caster like erekul gets barbed, argus yamato and gravity.

 

Bottom line is barbed is now op (thanks 2.0.4 patch) for what it gives compared to the cost, it needs a nerf on its unique or a severe increase in price, or perhaps both.

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when leech gets nerfed then barb should be nerfed at that point. as is. with a good auto attack build you can owna tank with barb. besides that sliptide is a good item, if i remember gives 40 agility(20 wd for agi heros) and 43 spell damage. plus the spell resist and movement speed. then you got prye, 30 weapon damage base and 30 spell damage for every 500 health the target currently have. so right there 2 decent priced items for an extra about of physical and spell damage per hit.

but a good build for shadow to live past barb it self is, sliptide, pyre, darwin might, galatic defender, time spliter, and FOE. that alone puts you at max attack speed about 3k hp and about 40% spell resist. unless they have axe darwin might on use will put you at 75% leech, 50% goes towards barb damage and 25% to your health. and your dealing about 400 physical damage, 43 from sliptide, and on a tank with 4k hp you will hit for 240 spell damage from pyre at the start. about an average of 150 for entire fight vs that tank. this all before midigation.

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when leech gets nerfed then barb should be nerfed at that point. as is. with a good auto attack build you can owna tank with barb. besides that sliptide is a good item, if i remember gives 40 agility(20 wd for agi heros) and 43 spell damage. plus the spell resist and movement speed. then you got prye, 30 weapon damage base and 30 spell damage for every 500 health the target currently have. so right there 2 decent priced items for an extra about of physical and spell damage per hit.

but a good build for shadow to live past barb it self is, sliptide, pyre, darwin might, galatic defender, time spliter, and FOE. that alone puts you at max attack speed about 3k hp and about 40% spell resist. unless they have axe darwin might on use will put you at 75% leech, 50% goes towards barb damage and 25% to your health. and your dealing about 400 physical damage, 43 from sliptide, and on a tank with 4k hp you will hit for 240 spell damage from pyre at the start. about an average of 150 for entire fight vs that tank. this all before midigation.

 

In the scenario you described above, how much armor does the tank have? Because if the tank has 35 armor, thats 70% resist, meaning you dont actually leech the 75% stated, you will be leeching for 22.5%.

 

So with 70% tank physical resist, you will leech back 90 hp per hit if you have 400WD.

You have 55% spell resist because of galactic and sliptyde (+20base spel resist). So barbed will hit for 90 spell damage.

 

So for 3.5 seconds of darwins ( and 2x 4000+ mineral spell resist items) you break even.

 

I suppose you could easily argue, dont attack the tank with barbed, but often in pubs you have no choice i.e the majority are tanks and have barbed.

 

Edit: plz correct me if my math is off midnight/mus/eliwan/any of those maths guys.

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[[i derped]]

 

SR stacks multiplicatively so Galactic gives 18%, Sliptide 18%, Sliptide UNIQUE 15%, Base Hero SR is 20% =>

 

1 * 0.82 * 0.82 * 0.85 * 0.8 = 0.457232x damage or ~54% Spell Resist (opposed to 55%)

 

So Barbed will deal 200 * 0.457232 or ~91.5 Spell Damage and you leech for 90 Health.

Net loss of 1.5 Health per attack

 

Now mind that this is with Darwin's Might as your only Leech item while it is active.

 

Also, Pyre is very not useful. Shadowmourne gives similar Attack Speed and has a more powerful UNIQUE versus non-casters; and casters get wrecked to begin with by an AA carry with tankability.

HoM will give you a much stronger early-game than the other items listed; so it's also a solid choice.

 

Arcbound, Agressor's, Phantom Menace, Shinobi Style, and even BHM are also very useful items that give you attack speed, damage, or tankability... :V Or map presence (which is Shadow's BFF thanks to Occlusion).

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120 hp per hit, not 90 (ignoring barbed). 400 * 0.3 = 100 * 0.3 * 4 = 30 * 4 = 120

 

SR stacks multiplicatively so Galactic gives 18%, Sliptide 18%, Sliptide UNIQUE 15%, Base Hero SR is 20% =>

 

1 * 0.82 * 0.82 * 0.85 * 0.8 = 0.457232x damage or ~54% Spell Resist (opposed to 55%)

 

So Barbed will deal 200 * 0.457232 or ~91.5 Spell Damage and you leech for 120 Health.

 

Now mind (editing)

 

I agree with the spell resist amount ( i was just doing a rough estimate in my head)

 

but I dont know how you get 120hp for leech when darwins is active?

 

You have 400 attack and the tank has 70% resist, so you do 120 physical damage per hit. Then I think the leech is calculated as 75% of the 120 physical damage you do, i.e 90. How do you work it out?

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I never really had a problem with it post-patch or pre-patch.

 

Then again, I get Sliptide + Darwins in every build, so I can still leech pretty good.

 

Maybe we need a (- armor) item?

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This item does not need to be changed. I want to provide deep insightful points- but I don't think they would be well received. It seems the overall gaming community is more interested in getting kills and tanks stand in the way of that. This post kind of comes across as an anti-defensive player post. The item is a good defensive item, but it is a necessity for tanks to have when other players have access to other powerful items.

 

Six examples:

 

http://www.aeonofsto...e__hl__masamune

http://www.aeonofsto...e__hl__masamune

http://www.aeonofsto...e__hl__masamune

http://www.aeonofsto...e__hl__masamune

http://www.aeonofsto...e__hl__masamune

http://www.aeonofsto...e__hl__masamune

 

Barbed plating isn't too strong. Barbed plating is essential to keep tanks relevant.

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two games tonight iv lost as a darpa when i was extremely fed vs a hero with barbed and a little health

 

my items in both games were

 

Sliptide Darwens Lighting rod Paralax and Masma explosive

 

i just simply kill my self on the hero with barbed after dieing to this when i feel i clearly should of won the fights i just left the game before trying a dif item build

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I dunno though... I mean you are effectively forced into a whole build because of one item. I mean assume you have what you said you have (Darwin's, Taser, Sliptide), this gives good spell resist, but not damage or lots of health. So now you have 3 item slots to spend on actually DPS items (and at least one additional str item, preferably). So assume you also get Organic/FoE to be on the safe side and not be killed by a spellcaster (high spell resist is almost pointless if you haven't high hp, especially if enemy has gravity edge). That leaves you somewhat tanky, but currently you deal damage only from sliptide and the 50 bonus from Darwin's. You are not attacking really fast, so you need another weapon speed item (and most of these are not ideal). You can get Timeslitter, Pyre, Lightning Rod, or Stun Batton. Last item should be Massume, since it is the best DPS item in the game, and here we have your build:

 

Darwin's, Massume, Taser, Sliptide, OC/FoE, and a weapon speed item.

 

Massume gives +100 weapon damage, about 30 from agility, darwin's is + 50, weapon speed item also gives 30-50 so you have about +210-260 additional damage, and most agility heroes have natuarally about 150 damage. That is about 350 physical damage, + some spell damage per attack when maxed. Not bad, but could be way better, and leaves YOU somewhat vulnerable to AA. These items are highly expensive, and none give immediate benefit in terms of kills (no matter which item you rush for, you will have difficulty killing anyone with it). You are therefore not likely to get fed any faster than the enemy tanks, which will have something like:

 

Shrapnel Cloak, Barbed, SHM, E Mantle, OC/FoE, Ax. Not to mention Korhal, and Spell Buffer, if this is a competent IH team. I don't fancy your chances as Shadow even if you build it like that, against some armor-heavy tank like Aksha.

 

Sliptyde and Darwins might are AA items, just they have other attributes that are very strong in their own right. The exact build endgame I have on shadow/zera is taser, pyre, timesplitter, explosive, sliptyde, and darwins (not in that order and I get superheated first and sell it later for explosive in the end) which gives about 400 weapon damage with consumable buffs. The thing is all I am saying is that you have to build your hero to counter the enemy and in a pub game at least this build gives probably about the best balance of defense, offense, and utility you are going to get for covering all your bases. Masamune also is not an item I would get on most AA heroes because it is more or less a brute force item that is pointless to have unless you have other issues addressed in your build (i.e. how are you going to attack heroes that can blink away or burst you down, and how are you going to not kill yourself from barbed plating or heroes with damage reflect like Drake or Vorpal). You already know this I am sure, but my point is that there are simple balanced counter builds to barbed plating tank builds for AA heroes that even with the pyre and crit and leech nerfs still give AA heroes an edge. Personally, I think if you don't get taser on every AA assassin hero you are really shortchanging yourself because tanky casters can't really do much other than die if you taser them first and beat on them for 5 seconds then use some other disabling ability like Shadow Walk or Chronosphere to finish the job. Of course, if you prefer parallax instead of taser then that is fine as well, but sliptyde is such a great AA item you really can't pass it up for an agility hero.

 

Last but not least, if you have Darwin's and 50% spell resist you don't need FoE or OC for sustain because you do 400 damage and can heal yourself to full off of some creeps very fast with Darwins alone, and if you are worried about a Cyprus blasting you, as long as your taser is not on cooldown just wait for him to blink in at close range and then taser him and finish him before he can respond because obviously your only other option is to be super tanky and just soak the damage and then counter as you would in a tanky caster build.

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i dont htink barbed needs nerfed.

 

all it does is make it so you can't blindly build a galss cannon and wtfpwn everyone.

 

Carries were never supposed to auto win games, its high time the other classes had a chance in hell.

 

rofl,

 

the problem is even if you build tanky you still kill your self,

 

I had paralax Sliptide, Explosive, Dwarins, Lighting Rod, MAsmuane and i still killed my self on a lurker who had only an ihan barbed nitro and a yamato cannon , worst yet the lurker was bad and missed his stun on me i simply just killed my self attacking the lurker

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