Spooky Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Isn't jungling too easy in AoS? Almost every hero can successfully jungling since level 1 which basically gives him a lot of early game experience and farm. My experience with other mobas is limited to few Dota 2 games and as far as I remember jungling there isn't sth every hero can do. Without specific abilities which usually give some kind of minions, etc. its almost impossible even on higher levels. But in AoS all u need is little bit leech which can u afford from the beginning. In effect every carry can have free farm almost without risk. I think the whole idea of jungling should have one purpose - to better distribute minerals and experience, so entire team can gain little advantage from start. Not to allow carry to out farm everyone else. In previous meta shutting down enemy carry early game through ganking and/or out denying was very important, but now there is no such an option... I've heard many times the opinions from the community that jungling is too strong, but I'm curious what developers think about it? Are u satisfied of current jungling meta? Or maybe u have some plans for changes? I think there two aspects that need a change: - jungling shouldn't give more money and more experience than u can get from soloing the lane, but more than u can get from double lane - so putting carry there wouldn't be good idea - jungling shouldn't be possible for every hero with basic leech, there should be small group of heroes which can do that and what should make them viable (unix, mk, bio, garamond, etc) How those changes would affect meta game: - there would be an option to shut down enemy carry early game - some specific lanes like rancor/raynor would be more viable if there would be more squishy heroes to lane against (not without reason this lane is labeled oldschool) - carries would have less farm early game, so they would need more time to become strong. In effect other carries, more gank-oriented like grunty, shadow, etc. would become more even to darpa or nova Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BestZeratul Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 I've said it countless times, but since Red and African disagree it's not gonna change. Their argument is that if one player in your team is jungling then it's easier for the enemy team to push your towers, and that it's a trade. Yet there is a jungler in every single team of every single inhouse, so I guess it's a worthy trade ... To me the biggest problem is the experience system : - jungle gives way too much experience, I mean why is the guy afking vs creeps getting more than the mid solo who's battling for every last hit ? - it backfires on solo laners, who can jungle their tank and get a lot of experience even when they are zoned out, primarily because as you pointed out, everyone can jungle, so instead of getting good lanes and zoning the enemy vergil you just go for braindead aoe clearing and focus on securing neutrals .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doxthefox Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 or... the lane creep are worth too little. WHOA WHOA WHOOOOOOOA!!! iatebambi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinGofDaBerG Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 I've said it countless times, but since Red and African disagree it's not gonna change. Their argument is that if one player in your team is jungling then it's easier for the enemy team to push your towers, and that it's a trade. Yet there is a jungler in every single team of every single inhouse, so I guess it's a worthy trade ... To me the biggest problem is the experience system : - jungle gives way too much experience, I mean why is the guy afking vs creeps getting more than the mid solo who's battling for every last hit ? - it backfires on solo laners, who can jungle their tank and get a lot of experience even when they are zoned out, primarily because as you pointed out, everyone can jungle, so instead of getting good lanes and zoning the enemy vergil you just go for braindead aoe clearing and focus on securing neutrals .. Wait when did I get brought up in this chob? I have said before jungling gives too much and I don't have much influence in balance... I just host tournaments lol... please stop putting words in my mouth doxthefox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aellectris Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Except that you could always ward their jungle and gank the Jungler... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SourDiesel Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Their argument is that if one player in your team is jungling then it's easier for the enemy team to push your towers, and that it's a trade. Yet there is a jungler in every single team of every single inhouse, so I guess it's a worthy trade ... I disagree with this premise. A lot of the value of having a Jungler is that the other team has no idea where he is and has to account for the fact that he could be anywhere at any time. Consequently, you're forced to be less agressive pushing towards a tower on account of the fact that if you overextend the jungler might pop up behind for a gank at any time. Stacking the weak lane with three or four heroes for a push can be countered by the jungler moving to the middle or opposite lane and using a 2v0 or 3v1 advantage to make it an even tower-for-tower swap. The only real sacrifice you make when jungling is the potential for the weak lane's tower to take a slow, steady, beating from creep waves or minions, but that can be handled easily enough by sticking a hero in solo with AoE or minions that is well-equipped to deal with creeps. The jungler can actually be an advantage for taking down towers because if middle or the two-man lane ever gains an advantage he can instantly come in and tip the scale without the opposing team being able to anticipate it. Personally, I have no problem with jungling being strong and don't have an opinion on the matter one way or another. But, I don't think that you sacrifice much in the way of tower defense by jungling, and I think it's flawed logic if that's supposed to be the balancing factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BestZeratul Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Well when we talked about it with Red in the channel you were objecting when I was giving my opinion and not saying a word when he was giving his, so I assumed you agreed with him, if it's not the case feel free to give your opinion, you have much better knowledge than me about the current metagame so it should make the discussion more accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BestZeratul Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Except that you could always ward their jungle and gank the Jungler... It's all good in theory, in practice you can't really solo gank him, and since he's usually jungling near his safelane it means you need at least 3 people (because mid and the two safe lane heroes can come very quickly) and the jungler will definitely realize it if this many heroes go mia at the same time. And if you want to theorycraft the jungler can also have defensive wards for his own jungle, in which case your ganks will fail every time. Once again I don't play very often but I have yet to see an attempt at shutting down the enemy jungler succeed without committing half of the team to it and losing the game to the rest of the enemy team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doxthefox Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Except that you could always ward their jungle and gank the Jungler... Totally wouldn't notice a bunch of guys missing in their lane for extended periods of time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinGofDaBerG Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Well when we talked about it with Red in the channel you were objecting when I was giving my opinion and not saying a word when he was giving his, so I assumed you agreed with him, if it's not the case feel free to give your opinion, you have much better knowledge than me about the current metagame so it should make the discussion more accurate. Still not sure where ur getting this, every time someone has brought jungling up around me the points have been that you can't really counter the jungles even if u stop him abit early, the money from the jungle is far superior to laning, I think they only thing to ccounter a jungle is have a jungle your self and steal his jungle... yes the jungler is strong! And I have never said anything against this... not sure if when u hear me speak you actually hear me actually agreeing with u but rather think I disagreeing but jeez bro... stop putting words in my mouth xD I mean why do u think I jungle cause its Op :)))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doxthefox Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 ^ The correct phrase is peepee peepee peepee - counter jungling (see video). It looks pretty hard honestly with the positioning and the timing. Normally a jungler goes in a circular path such that they know the timing of each camp that respawns. I main jungling in LoL so I know all the timings by heart, so counter jungling is an effective strategy in that game. However, the problem is that the timings are all the same in this game for the creep so you can just continue in that boring circular path until you feel that you're ahead enough to gank. Basically I don't think there's a big enough window to counter gank effectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BestZeratul Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 It's mostly the location of jungle camps, and how well they are covered with your towers. If you watch at the LoL or DotA minimap you can easily access the jungle without going near a tower for most camps. Another factor is that in DotA (can't comment on LoL since I don't really watch pro games) the supports are off the minimap very often, stacking camps, pulling, giving their carry solo experience if he's safe alone in the lane. So when they actually go for a gank it's not instantly spotted (they were off the minimap anyway). doxthefox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doxthefox Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 It's mostly the location of jungle camps, and how well they are covered with your towers. If you watch at the LoL or DotA minimap you can easily access the jungle without going near a tower for most camps. Another factor is that in DotA (can't comment on LoL since I don't really watch pro games) the supports are off the minimap very often, stacking camps, pulling, giving their carry solo experience if he's safe alone in the lane. So when they actually go for a gank it's not instantly spotted (they were off the minimap anyway). In LoL they have a smaller version of this concept on one side of the map where you can pull the golems for a small amount of experience and gold. I always found the new placement of the side creep very odd. If they want to promote the concept of counter jungling, then there needs to be a remake of the map where the majority of the neutral creep aren't sandwiched between two towers or essentially part of the lane in some parts. The short term solution would be to buff the lane creeps/nerf the neutrals in exp/gold or increase the repsawn timer of each camp. I look forward to it happening in 3 to 6 months =). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Hmm. It should be like dota 2 jungling, when creeps have a load of hp, and deal quite a sum of damage. But they also give good gold rewards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EterNity Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Let's replace the Thor, Tank, and Firebat with Aeon. Problem solved. doxthefox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banzaiguy Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Let's replace the Thor, Tank, and Firebat with Aeon. Problem solved. Aeon gets killed so easily by certain heroes that this would almost be an ok idea. Also, replace the marauders with Firebats, Thors and Tanks, then reduce the gold from Aeon and make it non-shared. Now you have jungle creeps that can actually out up a fight against heroes above level 1. LiquidDog, Rem and Legacy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doxthefox Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Let's replace the Thor, Tank, and Firebat with Aeon. Problem solved. Not challenging enough. Put aeon directly on top of the tower. That way you can get stunned at the tower and take even more damage! Eternity you're a genius! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banzaiguy Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Not challenging enough. Put aeon directly on top of the tower. That way you can get stunned at the tower and take even more damage! Eternity you're a genius! They should actually consider making a mode like that. All normal creeps replaced by Aeons, neutrals and towers are all Levi. It could be the Aeon of Plagues that never was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarXX Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 ...and put a tower that aggro anyone that attacks neuts while were at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takeray Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 I ve observed Dota2 camps and Lol camps ( Well I knew this sinceI had perfect akali jungling dual build Karthus Cassio jungling and all the wat for perfect jungler) and both of them haven't external camps on lane. so we have 5 camps with a ganking thread while Aos get 3 ( Firebat camp- Thor Camp- Tank Camp) and 3 externals ( Fire- Thor- Tank). Though external camps could be something interesting it shoul be some threatening point. Only external camp I d lke to keep is External Firebat from bot and top since it is in " MId of a lane and it is a bit threatening. But external Thor and external tank shoud be little more theatening. Firebat Thor* Tank Aeon Firebat Tank* Thor Thor Tank* Firebat Levi Tank Thor* Firebat * What I d change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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