[Geneva] Jaws of Life

[Itsthatguy]

I've heard on mumble mutiple times that Geneva's Ulti is OP or incrediably annoying giving Invulerability.

 

To me, Invulnerability can work in PvP Hero games, but only in certain mechanics [As it becomes broken when you can easily give it to any hero in the game].

 

Since i noticed many ppl dislike Jaws of Life, here are some suggestions in ways you can change it.

 

Feel free to suggest your own ways you think it could be changed.

 

 

 

1) Ultimate Ability: Jaws of Life

"Geneva links to the target with a line of energy for a short duration causing a targeted ally to be invulnerable for a short duration. When this happens a % of the damage target takes is then transfered to Geneva before mitigation. Geneva must be channeling the entire time for this to work. If the target moves out of range of channel the effects will cancel too. If Geneva falls below 1% Maximum Health, the channel is broken. Damage Geneva takes from her Ulti is Non-Fatal."

Energy Cost: 150//200//250

Cooldown: 120//100//80

Range: 10

 

Level 1: Lasts 3 seconds. Transfers 90% of Physical//Spell//True Damage to Geneva.

Level 2: Lasts 4 seconds. Transfers 80% of Physical//Spell//True Damage to Geneva.

Level 3: Lasts 5 seconds. Transfers 70% of Physical//Spell//True Damage to Geneva.

 

This makes it so Geneva's ulti actually scales when upping. In addition, it makes it so geneva takes punishment instead, thus putting her life on the line instead of the target. It also makes it so if target is engaging or moves out of range the ulti still doesn't work. It also makes it so if mutiple heroes ultied one hero, it isn't in Vain.

 

2) Ultimate Ability: Jaws of Life

"Geneva targets an ally causing them to be invulnerable for 2.75 seconds. The unit will be invulnerable as long as he is within a 4-unit Radius where the unit was hit. If the target has moved out of the radius [basicly moves 4 unit radius when he gets hit by Geneva's Ulti] the unit will no longer be Invulnerable."

Energy Cost: 150//200//250

Cooldown: 150//120//90

Range: 4//6//8

 

Level 1: Cooldown 150 Cast Range: 4

Level 2: Cooldown 120 Cast Range: 6

Level 3: Cooldown 90 Cast Range: 8

 

This will limit escapes as Geneva's Ulti gives so much chance for escape. As you have NO hope killing a Fast // Teleporter hero if Geneva ulti's it. Also there is no hope in killing heroes that currently have Debuff immunity during Geneva's Ulti like Boros//Balrog//Lord Z, Ect. Ect.

 

3) Ultimate Ability: Jaws of Life

"Geneva targets an ally unit causing them to gain a buff for 2.75 seconds. This buff causes units to Restore 100% of Damage Taken after mitigation during the Buff as Health when the Buff is removed."

Energy Cost: 150//200//250

Cooldown: 120//90//60

Range: 10

 

Level 1: Cooldown 120

Level 2: Cooldown 90

Level 3: Cooldown 60

 

This version of Geneva's Final is like the Reverse of Molotov. This makes it so that the ally can be killablee during Geneva's ulti but if you don't kill it during her ulti, it is like he didn't take any damage. So say you did 3000 damage but the enemy survived during Geneva's Jaws of Life. He will then restore 3000 Health. This makes the target killable but act like it was invulnerable if it was not killed. This makes it so ultis are to useless vs Jaws of Life. If Cyprus fails to kill the target during Jaws of Life, he restores his health. This version of jaws of life is basicly a 2.75 second chance to kill the unit. This makes it less over powered vs AGI Carries that become untouchable with Jaws of Life. Now they will be punished if they go glass cannon as they can still die. This can still be very useful of tanks taking heavy damage. Since this version of Jaws of Life is so nerfed, it has a lot lower Cooldown.

 

4) Ultimate Ability: Jaws of Life

"Geneva targets an ally unit causing them to gain Massive Damage Resistance for a short duration for every 7% Maximum Health they are missing. The Resistance does not stack linearly."

Energy Cost: 150//200//250

Cooldown: 120//110//100

Range: 10

 

Level 1: Gain +7% Damage Resistance per 7% Missing Health. Lasts 3.0 seconds.

Level 2: Gain +11% Damage Resistance per 7% Missing Health. Lasts 3.5 seconds.

Level 3: Gain +15% Damage Resistance per 7% Missing Health. Lasts 4.0 seconds.

 

This is High Resistance. This makes the target incrediably hard to kill but not invulnerable. This would be more ideal to use vs Low Health units. As geneva's Ulti can just currently has really no bad effects of using it on someone so long as they are getting attacked.

 

 

 

Do you guys have some good ideas?

[FruitNinja]

I like options 3 and 4, it should migitate a lot of damage but not be frustrating to have it used against you. In 3 and 4 you have clear choices to make as counterplay.

 

For 3 you can focus the target to bring him down, and for 4 you can simply nuke that hero and finish him when the buff ends.

[Aellectris]

4) Ultimate Ability: Jaws of Life

"Geneva targets an ally unit causing them to gain Massive Damage Resistance for a short duration for every 7% Maximum Health they are missing. The Resistance does not stack linearly."

Energy Cost: 150//200//250

Cooldown: 120//110//100

Range: 10

 

Level 1: Gain +7% Damage Resistance per 7% Missing Health. Lasts 3.0 seconds.

Level 2: Gain +11% Damage Resistance per 7% Missing Health. Lasts 3.5 seconds.

Level 3: Gain +15% Damage Resistance per 7% Missing Health. Lasts 4.0 seconds.

 

This is High Resistance. This makes the target incrediably hard to kill but not invulnerable. This would be more ideal to use vs Low Health units. As geneva's Ulti can just currently has really no bad effects of using it on someone so long as they are getting attacked.

 

 

So if you're at 30% hp you gain 150% resistance?

[Itsthatguy]

So if you're at 30% hp you gain 150% resistance?

 

Notice how it says The Resistance does not stack linearly.

 

That means it is plugged into 0.85^X

 

at 30% Hp you gain about 80.5% Damage Resistance

[Aellectris]

Notice how it says The Resistance does not stack linearly.

 

That means it is plugged into 0.85^X

 

at 30% Hp you gain about 80.5% Damage Resistance

 

Ah I missed that, thanks.

[Ironsights]

Why is this needed?

 

Not trying to be snarky, I just don't see the medic as all that OP...sure she can be annoying, but what hero thats worth a shap CAN'T be annoying?

 

Can someone clue me in?

[Darit]

Number 3 ... its like Zeratul's old ultimate! From back in like 3.0 SotiS where you would use it and it would return him to his previous health/energy!

 

Number 3 and 4 seem to be the best options, but these options are primarily based on IH games correct? I rarely, if ever, see Geneva since her newness wore off in pubs.

[Phyresis]

Number 3 ... its like Zeratul's old ultimate! From back in like 3.0 SotiS where you would use it and it would return him to his previous health/energy!

 

Number 3 and 4 seem to be the best options, but these options are primarily based on IH games correct? I rarely, if ever, see Geneva since her newness wore off in pubs.

Correct me if im wrong, i wasnt around then, but i thought that was chrono dagger.

[ShadowFlame]

Correct me if im wrong, i wasnt around then, but i thought that was chrono dagger.

His ult was basically a chrono dagger on any unit (or building)

[Psyght]

Wow, you need to show this to our friend highdrater, I really think this is a great way to fix her ulti, one of these options has to work.

[Itsthatguy]

Why is this needed?

 

Not trying to be snarky, I just don't see the medic as all that OP...sure she can be annoying, but what hero thats worth a shap CAN'T be annoying?

 

Can someone clue me in?

 

Because after taking a break from IH, i rejoined it and 80% of the talking for the past two days was just about how Teams that have a Geneva in it tend to win about 80 - 90% of all the IH games. I've only played two IH games with Geneva. Both times Geneva also won.

You can not compare Geneva to Pub perspective as she is a support her and since when do you see Pubs supporting their allies? [Meaning in pubs, Geneva isn't even remotely is filling her role, and if you are capable of filling the role, pubsters can't even fullfill the role of their own heros]. Jaws of Life may also not be as useful in pubs as pub games are nearly one sided. If you can never kill the enemy or escape him, Jaws of life will do no good. Also if you are just owning enemies so badly you can 1v5 them, Jaws of Life will not even come in use in a 5v5 (or in most cases 5v3) situations, usually only useful in tower dives at that point.

 

Altho most of the ppl that dislike Geneva's Ulti don't seem to really post things on this site, which is probably why they haven't really responded yet.

[Banzaiguy]

I think something opposite of skill 3 would be interesting. Your ally becomes invulnerable for the duration, but takes X% of all damage taken during the ulti to be dealt to him after it ends. Maybe tack on a debuff removeal/longer duration since your ally is probably gonna die after the ult anyway and it'd be sort of a last stand sort of skill.

[Divinesashi]

The more serious problem that I have with geneva is her Q removing debuffs.

 

OP

 

Edit: auto correct is fail

[Psyght]

The more serious problem that I have with geneva is her Q removin decides.

 

OP

pretty sure this is getting removed.

[Ironsights]

Because after taking a break from IH, i rejoined it and 80% of the talking for the past two days was just about how Teams that have a Geneva in it tend to win about 80 - 90% of all the IH games. I've only played two IH games with Geneva. Both times Geneva also won.

You can not compare Geneva to Pub perspective as she is a support her and since when do you see Pubs supporting their allies? [Meaning in pubs, Geneva isn't even remotely is filling her role, and if you are capable of filling the role, pubsters can't even fullfill the role of their own heros]. Jaws of Life may also not be as useful in pubs as pub games are nearly one sided. If you can never kill the enemy or escape him, Jaws of life will do no good. Also if you are just owning enemies so badly you can 1v5 them, Jaws of Life will not even come in use in a 5v5 (or in most cases 5v3) situations, usually only useful in tower dives at that point.

 

Altho most of the ppl that dislike Geneva's Ulti don't seem to really post things on this site, which is probably why they haven't really responded yet.

 

This sounds more like an insult to Pubbers than an answer to the question I posed.

 

Geneva being on the winning team matters not at all: what was on the other team? What heroes were her allies? Many other circumstances matter. Hell, from what I hear many, many IH games are based around nothing but heroes with tankiness and escape options, meaning a strong support hero (geneva, egon, whoever) will have no real counter there. That sounds like a team comp issue, not a geneva OP issue.

 

Geneva's ultimate is short, and effects one target only and is not spammable. Yes, she is a good healer. So is egon. I hear executioner's axe is good, by the way. Her AA is annoying but not OP, and her other spells are no worse than cyprus rocks (non-ulti) or nulls fan blade thing. All in all she isn't superior in any respect outside of her ulti.

 

Her ulti is pretty boss, don't get me wrong, but if she uses it on the hero you are attacking, either fall back for a couple seconds or just kill geneva instead. If she uses it to save herself, kill nearby allies. If you are going for a kill-shot combo, taser her first so she CANT ulti...

 

I really fail to see how her ultimate or her healing are particularly OP. And saying that its OP because people in mumble are boiiing about it is as stupid as saying Rory is OP because pubbers have issues stopping him. Simply put, IH vs PUB stereo types have little to no place in a balance discussion unless you can point to specific examples, something you did not do in your post.

 

{ending wall of text}

So, I'll say this again:

 

why exactly is the medic OP?

[NoWaterJustIce]

Geneva is no longer auto banned in tourny so im not sure that there is a need to change her ult anymore :)

 

(Then again i still havent been able to play the current medic ih because for some reason it gets banned every game i am in :( )

[Itsthatguy]

If Geneva's going to prevent a kill majority of the time, the other team is going to fall behind. Many ppl say use counters like Lockbox or stuns//Slows. The issue is that the ulti lasts long enough for allies to easily rescue the ally or for a person who has low health to basicly restore a large portion of their health.

1) If Geneva Ulti's someone you can't kill them in any way. So you have to switch targets? Issue is human reaction time is about 1 second to notice the person is invulnerable. Well congrats you just wasted a couple of abilities on that hero and he will take no punishment for it. Did you just use all your abilities to stop mandrake from casting ulti. It is such a shame that he is invulnerable with 50 Health and he can Ulti, still destroying your team, not dieing and actually regenerating all health.

2) Well you can slow and stun him right? Issue is you use all your abilities to stop that ulti, and then the enemy team destroys you since your abilities are on cooldown. Half the time that won't work anyways as Geneva's [Q] Removes Debuffs. [Yes it actually does, I didn't think so until it removed Molotov =/ and Toxi's ulti one game].

3) Most team fights are not that Long. Even if it only lasts 2.75 seconds, you are then invulnerable for about 30% of the Team Fight.

4) You can't really target Geneva. Because her [R] has absolutely NO scaling, she can build 10K Health and her ulti will still be as effective if she had full items or No items at all. Because of this, Geneva tends to be really tanky for a Support hero. Not to mention her passive shields, her other Shields and that she can blind you. She could also access easy escape items and on top of that, you got an entire team include the Invulerable hero defending her. Anyways, when she ultis most heroes you attack are about 4 - 5 unit range away from you. When Geneva Ulti's she got a 7 Casting Range now. How are you going to target Geneva if she is about 10+ Units away from you, especially if she just runs back after casting ulti as there is no channel time, and she problem has 3 other heroes around her protecting her.

5) Most ppl don't really care about the spamability of the ulti. Because many situations your only going to use it once in Team Fights regardless if the cooldown is 60 or 100 seconds long.

 

On my own Note: A lot of ppl have been criticizing me about making an item with a unique that gives 10% True Damage Resistance, stating that True Damage is True Damage it removes the purpose of true Damage. Geneva's Ulti gives 100% True Damage Resistance as well =/. You can't really counter the ulti. By the time it is over, the enemy is already gone, his team shows up to save him, ect. ect. Debuff immunity is on quite a bit of heroes so Lockbox wouldn't be an option for them, and Pullers on his team could just pull him back right after lock box. [As your puller's would most likely be on Cooldown as they just used it to pluck the person Geneva ultied]. And then it completely shuts down some heroes whos jobs are to take out carries as Geneva can simply insta save them.

 

There have been so many times where geneva ultis someone with no health, and they restore all their health. [Q] removes debuffs so Executioner axe won't work on that heal anyways =/. So you actually have to CONTINUE attacking an invulnerable target to keep axe debuff on knowing you will not recieve any reward too =/

 

P.S. Her AA Fork passive was removed.

 

The reason why ppl think Geneva is OP seems to be purely her [R] Jaws of Life. I don't think invulnerability is really a bad thing. But i find the issue is that, anyone can become invulnerable nearly without warning because of the hero, and on top of that, when they are invulnerable, they are still attackable, meaning that you basicly dealing Empty damage if you targeting the foe.

 

One thing about Executioner Axe: IT really needs to be tested better. Executioner's Axe hasn't stopped heals for me except for Lifesteal and Erekul. Versus Egon [or enemies egon is healing], they still regenerate 150 health per second or more with Axe on =/.

 

At Qustimann's post. Yea, in ever IH i've played Geneva's been banned unless RedHydra or Ecko specifically wanted her to be played. In which the team with the Geneva won lols...

[NoWaterJustIce]

TBH with all these nerfs to medic she is a little up. When are we going to buff medic so that she is viable ih???

[Revolution]

This sounds more like an insult to Pubbers than an answer to the question I posed.

 

Geneva being on the winning team matters not at all: what was on the other team? What heroes were her allies? Many other circumstances matter. Hell, from what I hear many, many IH games are based around nothing but heroes with tankiness and escape options, meaning a strong support hero (geneva, egon, whoever) will have no real counter there. That sounds like a team comp issue, not a geneva OP issue.

 

Geneva's ultimate is short, and effects one target only and is not spammable. Yes, she is a good healer. So is egon. I hear executioner's axe is good, by the way. Her AA is annoying but not OP, and her other spells are no worse than cyprus rocks (non-ulti) or nulls fan blade thing. All in all she isn't superior in any respect outside of her ulti.

 

Her ulti is pretty boss, don't get me wrong, but if she uses it on the hero you are attacking, either fall back for a couple seconds or just kill geneva instead. If she uses it to save herself, kill nearby allies. If you are going for a kill-shot combo, taser her first so she CANT ulti...

 

I really fail to see how her ultimate or her healing are particularly OP. And saying that its OP because people in mumble are boiiing about it is as stupid as saying Rory is OP because pubbers have issues stopping him. Simply put, IH vs PUB stereo types have little to no place in a balance discussion unless you can point to specific examples, something you did not do in your post.

 

{ending wall of text}

So, I'll say this again:

 

why exactly is the medic OP?

 

No he its not insulting pubbers. He is stating the Geneva in pubs does not appear to be overpowered due to the lack of team in pubs. This is not an insult, its a fact.

 

Just because Geneva doesn't have the kill potential boros, shadow or nova has in pubs does not mean she isn't overpowered.

 

To prove you wrong on multiple accounts: Geneva's skillset, while not outputting as much damage cyprus or sentry does, is utility based. Medic's optic flare does damage, has zone denial and blinds all enemies in it, null's arcane sword does damage and has a small zone denial. Medic's shield has a long cast range, shields all allies hit and does damage to all enemies hit. Cyprus' rocks do damage with a smaller cast range than medics shield.

 

So she has much more utility, better zone denial, better survivability at the cost of a bit less damage. The problem is you compared geneva to 2 INT burst casters. Their job is to do damage, while Geneva's is not. She is not superior to them like you said because her role is different from theirs. She is superior by far in her role compared to them however.

 

See you are basing your assumptions off of what you hear. Most team comps have 2 tanks, 1 INT dps, 1 AA dps and either a hybrid aa/int tank or hybrid AA/int dps. That is not always the case, but thats an ideal team comp. Geneva can keep anyone alive extremely easy. She can win a team fight with just her R on the right target.

 

Egon's heals are heals over time. Geneva's heal is a burst heal then a heal over time. What is more ideal in a team fight? A burst heal.

 

Sure you could fall back from her ulted target or focus her, but you seem to be forgetting about the 4 other players in front of her that are killing your team, while you try to kill her.

 

And no, Inhousers saying something is OP is a lot more reliable than a pub player saying something is OP. Any hero that is fed in a pub game can be claimed OP. And your example was quite poor.. A rory? Just get parallax and win. If pubs learned to counter then half of the "OP" heroes wouldn't be OP anymore. Inhousers play the game the way it is supposed to be played. With teamwork. Things that are OP in pubs aren't OP for the most part. There are some cases though. I'll give an example: Shadow has been complained about by pubs for so long now, yet inhousers found him to be on the weak side. So his ulti was buffed a bit.

 

So medic is OP because of the sheer utility and survivability she can bring to her team. She has a burst/heal over time, an aoe blind, a dps/shield to allies and an ult that is basically a get out of jail free card.

[Ironsights]

No he its not insulting pubbers. He is stating the Geneva in pubs does not appear to be overpowered due to the lack of team in pubs. This is not an insult, its a fact.

not going down this road. agree to disagree.

Just because Geneva doesn't have the kill potential boros, shadow or nova has in pubs does not mean she isn't overpowered.

true

To prove you wrong on multiple accounts: Geneva's skillset, while not outputting as much damage cyprus or sentry does, is utility based. Medic's optic flare does damage, has zone denial and blinds all enemies in it, null's arcane sword does damage and has a small zone denial. Medic's shield has a long cast range, shields all allies hit and does damage to all enemies hit. Cyprus' rocks do damage with a smaller cast range than medics shield.

Fair enough

So she has much more utility, better zone denial, better survivability at the cost of a bit less damage. The problem is you compared geneva to 2 INT burst casters. Their job is to do damage, while Geneva's is not. She is not superior to them like you said because her role is different from theirs. She is superior by far in her role compared to them however.

 

See you are basing your assumptions off of what you hear. Most team comps have 2 tanks, 1 INT dps, 1 AA dps and either a hybrid aa/int tank or hybrid AA/int dps. That is not always the case, but thats an ideal team comp. Geneva can keep anyone alive extremely easy. She can win a team fight with just her R on the right target.

 

Egon's heals are heals over time. Geneva's heal is a burst heal then a heal over time. What is more ideal in a team fight? A burst heal.

your opinion. actually, its circumstantial as far as I'm concerned.

Sure you could fall back from her ulted target or focus her, but you seem to be forgetting about the 4 other players in front of her that are killing your team, while you try to kill her.

and you are ignoring your own team or assuming they are all dying. IF your ENTIRE team is dying due to one hero not being dead...you lost anyway.

And no, Inhousers saying something is OP is a lot more reliable than a pub player saying something is OP. Any hero that is fed in a pub game can be claimed OP. And your example was quite poor.. A rory? Just get parallax and win. If pubs learned to counter then half of the "OP" heroes wouldn't be OP anymore. Inhousers play the game the way it is supposed to be played. With teamwork. Things that are OP in pubs aren't OP for the most part. There are some cases though. I'll give an example: Shadow has been complained about by pubs for so long now, yet inhousers found him to be on the weak side. So his ulti was buffed a bit.

 

So medic is OP because of the sheer utility and survivability she can bring to her team. She has a burst/heal over time, an aoe blind, a dps/shield to allies and an ult that is basically a get out of jail free card.

thanks for explaining your side of it. Not 100% sure I agree, but I understand better now.

 

Aside from answering the above post, I would like to make one more point.

 

Many players, IH and pub alike, call something OP if it breaks your current Meta. Geneva does this. You can't suicide-tower-dive for a kill when geneva is there. Can't focus fire ONE hero and be sure of the kill. In short, she makes you play differently. That is a good thing, not OP.

 

If you are arguing that she has -->too much survivability<-- then I might agree. She is dastardly hard to kill, though also mostly harmless so it evens out in theory. If you are arguing soley that she is OP due to Jaws of Life, as I gathered from the OP, then I 100% beliveve you are wrong. Jaws forces you to play different, outside of your comfort zone, but I do not feel it is over powered.

[xNOVAxPRIMEx]

Many players, IH and pub alike, call something OP if it breaks your current Meta. Geneva does this. You can't suicide-tower-dive for a kill when geneva is there. Can't focus fire ONE hero and be sure of the kill. In short, she makes you play differently. That is a good thing, not OP.

 

Thank you for pointing this out. I cant stand when people complain about something being op just cause they cant build freely.

 

Yesterday had a game against a cyp who was "okayyyy" able to get a few kills against people who didnt know better. I teamed up with an egon and he would just silence him and i was vergil I'd do a couple cuts and ult and kill. He called it OP cause he built a glass cannon with nothing but INT.

[Revolution]

Aside from answering the above post, I would like to make one more point.

 

Many players, IH and pub alike, call something OP if it breaks your current Meta. Geneva does this. You can't suicide-tower-dive for a kill when geneva is there. Can't focus fire ONE hero and be sure of the kill. In short, she makes you play differently. That is a good thing, not OP.

 

If you are arguing that she has -->too much survivability<-- then I might agree. She is dastardly hard to kill, though also mostly harmless so it evens out in theory. If you are arguing soley that she is OP due to Jaws of Life, as I gathered from the OP, then I 100% beliveve you are wrong. Jaws forces you to play different, outside of your comfort zone, but I do not feel it is over powered.

 

Im not sure you know what a "meta" is. I play LoL more than AoS or at least I was when I went on this "break" so ill give you an example from LoL. The current meta in LoL is hp stacking. There is a champion in league that Geneva's ultimate was taken from. This hero is banned quite a bit in top level play, but the ultimate in no way "breaks the meta". You are right in that it causes players to have to play a bit differently, but the problem is Geneva has the power to literally make a key target unkillable in a team fight and if you try and focus her then you are going to lose the team fight anyway. She is strong to the point where she is a key target, but to kill her requires going through 4 other players and if you focus lets say their darpa, geneva will just ult him and heal him to full hp instantly. It's a lose-lose.

[VasyaKot]

The only problem i see with her ult is that it blocks True Damage. This is incredibly stupid. True damage is supposed to be true, yet some crappy geneva cancels it out :(

 

P.S. lul it is much like Team Fortress 2 medic Ubercharge, i wonder if the devs stole that idea^^

[NoWaterJustIce]

The only problem i see with her ult is that it blocks True Damage. This is incredibly stupid. True damage is supposed to be true, yet some crappy geneva cancels it out :(

 

P.S. lul it is much like Team Fortress 2 medic Ubercharge, i wonder if the devs stole that idea^^

 

Invulnerability is not an idea that they stole from anywhere, its something that is present, in some way, in many games.

[BestZeratul]

I haven't played her at all so take my advice fwiw but I was under the impression that it wasn't her ult alone that made her really strong but her entire skillset and how well it synergized/how much it did in teamfights.