Shrapnel Cloak

[Hogwarts]

Shrapnel Cloak:

- Reduced duration to 2 seconds from 3.

 

why did this item receive a 33% nerf?

 

i dont recall any one ever complaining about it

 

once more we have an item that is over nerfed for no apparent reason

[NoWaterJustIce]

If you read in the change log RNG replyed with his explanation on why the item was nerfed.

 

TLDR:

-Chaining shrapnel was too strong

-He plans to add more items soon, some of which will make up for the nerf to shrapnel.

[Revolution]

He also said that the item gave to much utility for only 2600

[Hogwarts]

i heard it was because an eu player complained about it and thus red changed it immediately !!! <-- this is most likely the reason tbh its the most logical.

 

@ quistman, the item should of been left alone then until the new items come out

 

bad is bad

 

 

@ rev, O cool, lets give a 2 sec silence to AA heros and lets give a 5 sec silence to casters ,

 

i could of swore 99% of , X hero is op thread was about an AA carry

[Revolution]

Yeah i think chimera said something about EU complaining to Red about it as well.

[God]

Why is Eu so bad yet they get the changes they want?

 

Shrap was fine

[Hogwarts]

Why is Eu so bad yet they get the changes they want?

 

Shrap was fine

 

i think we need to put a stop to this eu is bad, na is bad stuff, Were both equally terrible :D

 

 

 

 

i think the best part about the balance changes, is Red will make a change but he is so addicted to uniform numbers i.e 1,5,10 % and such, and he adjust scaling or cd's by these only but they end up being ridiculous nerfs, Yes its only 1 second on the silence, but its a huge ass 33% nerf to the item

 

Like the bio change, yes the damage to towers was increased by a mere 15%, but its a 50% damage increase to towers, then he went as far to Nerf each tower by 500 Health ...............

 

 

 

Red like you personally and i enjoy playing with you, but u cant balance bro,

 

Eko give Wrath more responsibility and make Wrath in charge of balance he has proven him self many times over

[residente]

Sorry but EU is awesome, and NA too

[Reaper]

so because of shrap nerf shadow runs up to you, you use shrap he vortex's it does nothing and still AA u to death?

[Hogwarts]

so because of shrap nerf shadow runs up to you, you use shrap he vortex's it does nothing and still AA u to death?

 

if shadow has a masumane the effects of shrapnel are 20% less now also !! GG

 

add in shadows ult at lvl 16 and the haste talent thats 25% and then guess what 25% more time on shadow which means the buff of 2 secs is that much shorter

 

GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

 

im not sure how the math works on this, but it could be 70% time but damn thats pretty strong,

[Revolution]

A lot of mumblers agree that Red can't balance, but a lot of changes Red makes Ecko agrees with or so it seems. An example would be the shrapnel cloak nerf. Some changes are good, some are bad and more times than not the bad ones like the erekul/kerrigan buff patch will be nerfed properly.

 

Balancing numbers in increments of 5 is not always good, but it makes calculations easier, it makes numbers in the editor easier and its a bit more appealing to the eye. I'd much rather see something scale 5% than 7.62%

 

@Red

A lot of NA have noticed that you respond to complaints from EU much more than you do to NA and that is a problem. There have been many changes that were made because of EU complaining that we (NA) did not agree with, yet if we say something needs to be changed but EU says it doesn't then it most likely won't get changed. Before you make a change you should have a discussion between the top players in NA and EU and have them give arguments back and forth to why something should be changed or shouldn't be. That being the case if they disagree with eachother on an item being changed or not. And when you randomly buff something like you did with erekul/kerrigan many patches ago, you should at least run it by the community before making such a drastic change. Though in the end you and Ecko's decision is absolute, it still doesn't feel good to be blindsided by a random unwarranted change.

 

Personally in terms of balance I think you do fine. There are times where you mess up, but if we complain enough normally you'll change it back such as you did with erekul and kerrigan. The things I stated are just a couple things you should work on and I'm sure it'll make the community much happier with you in charge of balance.

[EKCO]

It doesn't matter who complained about it. If it's a problem, we address it. Stop turning every disagreeable balance change into an EU vs NA topic because it quickly morphs into an ad hominem argument (which I've seen mentioned several times already). If we "take more opinions from NA", what makes you think players from EU can't complain with the same logic?

 

The EU environment demonstrated that chained shrapnel cloaks created large gaps of time in which large numbers of players would be deprived of gameplay or combat tactics. The "33% nerf" was to overall reduce the effectiveness of chained usage, while still maintaining a level of recognizable combat prevention. On the other hand, a 15% reduction would have made hardly a dent on chain usage. I've mentioned this already in another thread, and I really don't want to have to repeat it a 4th time.

 

 

Ultimately, you shouldn't ignore the point at hand and start saying that a change is silly because it was made as the result of observations that were not made within your environment. At that point, you're just saying that we make changes "just because", even though we've provided lengthy explanations of why a change was made. If we see another "why was shrapnel changed?", we'll assume either you're just messing with us or have completely neglected to follow the topic thus far.

 

 

@ Hogwarts: Even with 3 seconds of Shrapnel Cloak, Shadow can do the same thing(s).

 

 

I should also mention that it is becoming increasingly difficult for us to come talk about balance on NA because of several unruly individuals that turn every balance discussion into an opportunity to insult and discredit all the time we spend listening to everyone's suggestions. If you can't disagree without being disagreeable then we're going to start banning more frequently, because nobody wants to have a discussion while they're being insulted. If you want people to listen to you, the least you could is a) provide a representation of your argument, and b) not insult them to their face.

 

The tone of voice we've been getting lately is "Hey most of these changes are great, except I don't agree with this one change, so you must have really not put any thought into this." We accept that this is a common aspect of the environment, but at some point this is really turning into slander, which is not conducive for anyone.

[BestZeratul]

Eko give Wrath more responsibility and make Wrath in charge of balance he has proven him self many times over

 

Please don't, for the love of god.

[xNOVAxPRIMEx]

Before you make a change you should have a discussion between the top players in NA and EU and have them give arguments back and forth to why something should be changed or shouldn't be.

 

I dont neccessarily think this should be the case. There is a HUGE difference between Playing games and Creating.....I dont think such a touchy subject should be left up to a "top player" often i see these players get real comfortable in there tight knitt groups and never step out. Things become biased and unjust. If you are a top player and you own at in house match ups and you cant stand playing a pub then you have no more right to speak over a person who destroys in pub games. Until you can acknowledge that there is a distinct difference between both styles of play (and not that one is better then the other) you cannot make an informed decision on ANY matters. It should be left up to intelligent individuals who can consider ALL aspects of the game, not based on skill level.

[BestZeratul]

Bro top inhouse players don't lose pubs.

[Spooky]

Why u think anyone from inhouse community would have any problem in pubs? It just not fun to play with or against really bad players, with so many RQers, laggers and so on. There are some players which doesn't play pubs at all, others very rarely while some going as premade to troll with some odd builds or compositions.

 

Basic difference between those two playstyles lies in teamplay, team coordination and therefore in builds. Pub environment is very easy for carries like Shadow, Nova, Darpa. They may seem OP there. Mainly because of lack of teamplay, lack of counter items and so on. Same pub carry player in inhouse probably would get raped. Not because he is unskilled player, but because of lack of experience with playing with and against well-organized teams. So it isn't that inhouse players doesn't see some factor which pub players see, its quite opposite. So maybe I will ask - why developers should consider balance suggestions based on environment with many bad players and without teamplay?

[Revolution]

I dont neccessarily think this should be the case. There is a HUGE difference between Playing games and Creating.....I dont think such a touchy subject should be left up to a "top player" often i see these players get real comfortable in there tight knitt groups and never step out. Things become biased and unjust. If you are a top player and you own at in house match ups and you cant stand playing a pub then you have no more right to speak over a person who destroys in pub games. Until you can acknowledge that there is a distinct difference between both styles of play (and not that one is better then the other) you cannot make an informed decision on ANY matters. It should be left up to intelligent individuals who can consider ALL aspects of the game, not based on skill level.

 

A top player in the inhouse community is not only more skilled at the game, but also has much more experience and understanding of the game in the environment a moba game should be played. "Destroying" in an inhouse is much more unlikely than "destroying" in a pub. Pubs have a 1% chance to have teamwork along with having very few competent players on each team. Winning pubs is extremely easy to do solo. The distinct difference in playstyles is the pub mentality is 1v5 and the inhouse mentality is 5v5.

 

The top players consider shadow and boros to be relatively weak. (unless its highdrater playing boros <3) However, in pubs shadow and boros are said to be retarded OP and the game is dumb to let them be so strong. Well ofc they are going to be strong in 1v1 situations thats what they excel at. You put teamplay in the mix and they either end up getting shap on or falling off at the end of mid game. If we balanced solely off pubs shadow, boros and zeratul would be non existent in inhouse games due to how bad they would be compared to every other hero.

[Itsthatguy]

so because of shrap nerf shadow runs up to you, you use shrap he vortex's it does nothing and still AA u to death?

I found shrapnel almost useless vs me as Shadow.

If i use Haste + Yamato + Ulti, the timescale stacking reduces Shrapnel into lasting only about 1.1 seconds long. And thats without Masamune [since i like to build fairly tanky as shadow]. I don't even try to vortex half the time because my timescale is so high, that vortex would actually hurt me since it would take 2.5 seconds away from my timescale boost instead of only 1 second away of a shrapnel.

 

[Not to mention that i have high movement speed so i can continue to easily chase down]

[Hogwarts]

just cause Whale wants to rage at red, does not mean there are other na players who have concerns,

 

iono i have not be in a single IH where i hear some one say " chain shrapnel is so broken its op" etc....

 

and i play in a lot of games

[Ironsights]

going off topic here, but I hvae seen plenty of in housers lose in the pub environment: its amusing how not having bans can alter the environment you have to play in :P /end troll

 

as for the topic itself...honestly I jsut appreciate it when the devs DO post their opinions/thoughts, which they have. I like having information, even if I disagree with its application. Yet when they finally do put some more explanaition into their actions (say, with shrapnel) the community simultaneously slams them for it and ignores it...? Seems like a good way to make them stop talking, which would annoy me greatly. Losing a valued source of information over forum ragers (and mumble too from what I gather) would be a sad thing indeed.

 

Shrapnel was super good. its still pretty decent. New items have been promised. Chain shrapnel WAS pretty absurd. I don't see why this arguement is on going, when we really should be uniting together to demand bank files for the flip interface prefrence. God knows my laz-ass is getting tired of pressing those two buttons every game!

[BestZeratul]

They lose because they don't play to win. I go for retarded builds on purpose every pub and still win 90% of them.

[WhaleTits]

...demand bank files for the flip interface prefrence. God knows my laz-ass is getting tired of pressing those two buttons every game!

 

being tested already :/

 

 

also don't assume there aren't bad inhouse players. its not like theres an entrance exam to join mumble, its open to anyone.

[Ironsights]

being tested already :/

 

excelent to know.