kills vs cs

[doxthefox]

This derives from a discussion I've had with fan favorite aellectris, europes playboy soedenone and the rookie crixalus. I don't have the exact math for it but here's some food for thought. A creep is about 17-20 gold on average while a kill is worth an insane amount of gold in comparison. I think 300-500. When you kill a guy you get items and the guy is additionally behind from the respawn time and missing creep. The snowball continues and lets say now the guy is 0-5. Meanwhile in mid, the enemy is being dominated though he doesn't have a kill. This means that he gets every cs and he denies everything. However the harsh reality settles in as he knows that it doesn't matter because the gold from the cs compared to the 5 kills cannot be made up so easily. Basically what I'm saying is cs is either worth too little or... hero bounties are too much. My solution is as follows, if you die 5 times in a row you should be worth one fifth of the minerals in comparison to your first death (lol/dota logic.) With this in place it will prevent hopeless snowballing and give renewed hope to teams that look at a kill score and think that the game is over when its 11-1 or some ridiculous number. The idea is not to let one guy ruin the game while redistributing the gold to creeps to even out the idea of kills is also worth more than two or three creep waves

[Nuparu]

I vote mineral count be nerfed earlier to like 150-160 and eventually reach 400 by the time everyone is 18.

 

That way, creeps become so much more important then mass gank.

[Eliwan]

I think a Hero Kill is worth 100 + 20 * Lvl minerals. o-o" Just off the top of my head...

 

But in all honesty; I would like to see Creeps -steadily- increase in mineral value instead of randomly doubling at the 55? minute mark...

 

Also, yes, "as you die more often in succession you become worth less money" sounds very awesome ^_^

[Midknight]

That might heavily de-value player kills by making them go down in value too fast. The biggest drop is right in the beginning, losing a whole 50% of their total value just because they died twice in a row. I'd say something a bit more steady and linear; say they count as 1 level less in the formula for every consecutive time they've died. So, if the formula Eliwan provided is accurate, a lvl 10 would initially give 100 + (20 * 10) = 300 minerals but after 2 consecutive deaths, he'd give 100 + (20 * 9) = 280. 10 consecutive deaths and he's only worth 100. 15 consecutive deaths and he's worth nothing (though, the reduction could bottom out at a minimum of, say, the value of a zealot/roach)..

[WhaleTits]

kills gold was increased to encourage ganking. this was done when the creep mechanics were changed (when the spawn rates were increased) to counterbalance the need to hold a lane. (it was found that the cost of letting an opponent push ur lane while you went off the gank and maybe get a kill was inhibitive, and made laning phase incredibly dull)

 

If one lane is feeding without ganks, then thats is just superior players, and deserves reward.

[FruitNinja]

"Rewarding" players for stomping new players with nova, tosh, shadow, etc doesn't seem right.

 

It doesn't make sense to allow people to get fed off of one lane. If a person is 0/10 and no assists, killing him should hardly reward anything as the person is completely helpless.

 

A skilled player will be able to gank other lanes to snowball those. Allowing hard carries to snowball off of killing one lane repeatedly makes feeders incredibly annoying to have on your team.

[WhaleTits]

that is a comment on lack of matchmaking, not a comment on game balance.

[FruitNinja]

that is a comment on lack of matchmaking, not a comment on game balance.

 

This change only affects games with feeders in them.

 

You can't ignore the problem here.

 

Skilled players don't need to rig the game for themselves so they don't lose to noobs.

[xNOVAxPRIMEx]

Hmmm i think this is an interesting point, I was in what i thought was a good game. I think the score peaked at about 8-5. We were 6-5 and as a result of the team battle at mid we gained 2 kills. Within seconds the other team just called it GG... it sucks that they feel being up a few kills is such an unrecoverable gap. Perhaps, it had also to do with they just gave up, odd as i have come back form much worse. I believe one player on the other team had died 4 times. 2 near the start and the other 1 a bit later and the last in the last fight. Accusing him of feeding he left and seconds after another followed resulting in a surrender. think the game ended under 25 mins.

[Midknight]

I'm thinking, to keep it gradual, a modification to my original suggestion is that you don't instantly "break" your dying streak by getting a kill or assist and go right back up to full value. If each death makes you worth 20 minerals less, then every kill or assist recovers 40 minerals worth of lost value.

[EterNity]

Let's make killing hero worth only 10 minerals and each creep kill worth 50 from start so we can play farmerville for a good 30 minutes before everyone is maxed up and start ganking.

[BestZeratul]

The problem is that assists also give a ton of minerals, and I'm all for promoting ganking over farmfest but if you compare the minerals earned 8 kills + 7 assists is probably not far from 100 cs at the moment, which is completely ridiculous considering you only need to be near someone dying to get an assist.

[FruitNinja]

EDIT derpy internet.

[FruitNinja]

AFAIK assist gold is not lowered by the number of players, is it?

 

Although that's okay since you can be a teamfight hero like micro and still get minerals for helping. However, there's a ton of minerals from kills in the first place.

 

I think minion farming shouldn't be a huge part of the game, but farming the same feeder over and over again is just as bad, and also scares off potential players.

[doxthefox]

At the highest level of gameplay in other Moba's it is noted that players rarely die. In LoL tournaments the final score is usually something like 9-5 and the team that has 9 kills is often viewed as the one that completely dominated the game, but AFAIK there isn't a single ih/pub game where a score is remotely close to this scenario. To say that it requires skill or someone should be rewarded in the same manner when when a guy is down by 3 or 4 deaths already is absurd. Of course you should be able to kill a guy with no items or the most basic form of a complete build when you are already are on your way to possessing a full build. It requires more skill to kill a guy when you have an actual disadvantage (ex: the enemy has killed someone 3 consecutive times without dying, while you've died 2 times with no kills/assists) Assist gold is something that I forgot to mention in the OP (it was late and I forgot that part of the details in our discussion if you must know). In LoL (and dota?) we have a pot where the assist gold goes. The pot is worth half as much as the kill and it's split evenly amongst those that assisted. Adding on to that, I think another way to improve the system is by decreasing the search radius for assist would help or remaking it (ex: make it such that triggering something worthy of an assist occurs such as damage/CC/healing/shielding.)

 

@ eternity: You think half of these guys know how to last hit HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHHA

edit: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH, best troll NA I'd say it would take them at least an hour if your troll comment was implemented to get a full build.

edit 2: it's called farmville you n00b. I don't even have a fb (Marche can't find it so it's been verified) and I know that. You're a disgrace to all asian people.

[LOLLMAO]

Mmm, I think someone had this idea before, but had to mention it.

I think the best way to reduce rage quits is just "diminishing return" on a feeding hero.

 

i.e. If a hero had 0/5 k/d or a simple 5 death streak, the amount of income from looting off that person would decrease by maybe 50%(estimated) of the initial loot so carries can't continously gain maximum benefits. It also allows the other hero to catch up on items despite being destroyed by carries.

 

When they do score a kill, their maximum loot will increased consecutively. i.e. 1/5 k/d --- 60% (estimated) of initial loot

 

However, this idea is not game breaking as carries still attack the hero to maintain a push on the towers and gain experience but can't get 2-3 items ahead of everyone else. Only experience advantage should be more than decent to kill an enemy hero.

 

As for organised vs. unorganised, it's really a chance of luck...

 

Problem: Some people rage quit on the 1st death :\

I mentioned this concept but was ignored/rejected/dumped.

It's true that this was more related to reducing rage/newb quits, but the solution was relatively similar to this post.

 

Anyway, ganking/camping on a lane tends to be overcomed with farming and destroying towers (extra minerals to allies/feeder)

Note: tower health were nerfed recently, making towers even easier to take down...

[pchacker]

This is a good idea, it actually makes sense really. I mean when someone goes godlike you get extra minerals for killing them, so if someone goes on a 9 death feeding rampage, you should get much much less reward for killing them. The decreased mineral reward would also get reset when the feeder gets a kill, just like a rampage and godlike does.

[xNOVAxPRIMEx]

I mean when someone goes godlike you get extra minerals for killing them, so if someone goes on a 9 death feeding rampage, you should get much much less reward for killing them.

 

They could even have an announcement or something like monster kill but could be like P-P-P-PUNCHING BAG orrrrr something like P-P-P-PILLOW BITER!!! Idk im sure someone could come up with much better ideas :)

[BestPlayer]

The problem is that assists also give a ton of minerals, and I'm all for promoting ganking over farmfest but if you compare the minerals earned 8 kills + 7 assists is probably not far from 100 cs at the moment, which is completely ridiculous considering you only need to be near someone dying to get an assist.

I played with diipa in an inhouse, both same team, and we ended up winning.

I had less deaths than him, 1 assist more, and 5 kills less. I was also 80 lasthits ahead.

 

He had higher networth than me at the end of the game.

[Midknight]

Net Worth is based on the value of your items. So if you spend money on consumables, it doesn't count; only items actually in your inventory at the end of the match count.

[Strike]

Lower creep bounty to 9-14 minerals per creep, lower hero bounty to 80-210 by level, increase passive mineral gain to 8 minerals/second. Congruent metagame development right there to match actual player skill levels.