Leo

[Spooky]

Isn't Leo little bit to strong? Every inhouse when there is Leo in game he gets triple and monster kills very easily. His damage output is just ridiculous (its hard to see his potential in pubs though when your enemies very rarely are at the same place and your teammates have no idea how to initiate). I know there are many counters to him - stuns, lockbox, shrapnel, EM, hard casters and so on, but usually it isn't enough. He will get many kills anyway. There is no option to run away from him. And once he gets Parallax or/and his team has good initiation (jackson, drake), its gg. And those are results of players which have really poor experience with him. I can't even imagine what may happen when someone would master him. He basically is like Shadow but with AoE - ergo much, much better. Of course there are compositions against Leo can't do to much, but fact sth is counterable doesn't mean its not OP.

 

Early game there is not to much u can do against him. He will jungle very easily and will farm a lot. It isn't easy to stomp him then. So he very fast will earn for HoM which basicaly is great early game amplifier to his ulti. After he will just get new kills, money and get next items very fast. It isn't very hard to play him. All u need to know is to when join the team fight, active Haste and items and finish everybody around. If u have good initiation right moment is pretty obvious.

 

So he need some nerf. Maybe his ulti should have smaller AoE or lower damage? Maybe he is just to fast? Or maybe some items are just broken - Masamune for example. Why it doesn't give negative spell resistance how it used to? Physical negative resistance is nothing to AGI heroes. There is totally no risk with getting this item which gives huge benefits. In other hand its most expensive item but sooner or later every carry can afford it.

[Head]

inb4 "b-b-b-but he has no cc"

[WhaleTits]

he desperately needs farm, more then any other carry, with perhaps, the exception of Zeratul, but zera can contribute significant utility in a team fight

 

the only melee carry that can actually carry late game. i don't particularly see anything wrong with that. hes also pretty weak for jungling early game...

[Spooky]

I think he carry little bit to well. He can wipe out entire team in few seconds

[zeeeend]

Well unlike zera he is usefull without his ulti. He can chase down nearly anyone, and his reflect is imba 70% reflect is so troll.

And whilst zera is a verry late game carry (due to op lvl 16 ulti), leo can monsterkill at lvl 11 with just a few midgame items: hom and sinobi

[Midknight]

...and his reflect is imba 70% reflect is so troll...

 

You think that's troll? Try combining it with a Barbed Plating and watch Darpa attack out of Shinobi cloak and die before he's fully visible.

[akanna]

Leo has been nerfed 12312312 times already, as is he is actually rather balanced

If he gets fed he becomes a scary mofo, like most agi heros, but he also relies hardcore on early farming to be of any real use.

 

Leo has very limited CC by default, and has to attack at melee range (outside of using Q)

Have your ranged heros harass and shut him down in lanes, to limit his creeping and farming, it will handicap him hardcore

 

You absolutely must get Shrapnel Cloak VS LEO since his ult procs on attack.

 

In the late game taser is also helpful for preventing his ult and reflect, along with any amount of spell resistance (like spell buffer)

His reflect can be mitigated by heavy leech, and only lasts for 4 seconds (you should focus on stunning him while its up, giving you a way to not attack till it wears off). That aside I cannot emphasize enough how good a counter shrapnel cloak is, and how dumb it is if your team doesn't have at least 2-3 of them.

 

The main reason leo shines (or tanks hard) is mobility, leo's strength is in running people down and getting away (although against a ranged team he is usually played all or nothing style like shadow), with careful thought to positioning and timing on charging in. Ward your map and have good awareness to spot him coming and you can mitigate a lot of his damage, he is one of the only melee heros that doesn't have a default way to close the gap on someone (he only gets a boost when you are low on HP). That's why many LEOs run cleanup on a team swooping in after the engage is started, instead of charging in blindly first (unless they have lots of movement boosts). The biggest mistake you can make vs LEO is trying to run.....for real do not do it, it just means free kills as he chases you down, and he will pretty much always catch you if his build is even half good...your best bet is to have everyone focus fire him as soon as he appears, that way even if he reflects its split among the team.

 

Its also not a good idea to 1v1 him unless you have a way to keep him from getting into melee range, your best bet is to focus fire him with ranged units that are fairly spread out, and to try to use creep waves/towers to your advantage if your shrapnels are on CD. FOE is like a death sentence making it very hard for him to run if things go south, and it will also slow him on the way in if he is charging you. There is very little he can do against a competent ranged team that works together (and rocks shrapnel's) , even with barbed, but against a disorganized mob he will pull doubles and triples all day.

[EterNity]

Really the only reason a Leo can get a triple or monster kills is because the only time he can run in to kill is when everyone is almost dead lol

[Reaper]

@akanna u say shrapnel cloak is good but time parralax right and shrapnel does nothing

[Rem]

Then you sir just got outplayed, Next time I suggest a second shrapnel on the team.

[KinGofDaBerG]

Any decent Leo player will get a parallax as his biggest count is cc, until parallax Is nerfed Leo will be regarded extremely strong as there is no counter to him late... and maybe his ultimate does abit too much damage, his reflect is situational....

[VasyaKot]

leo dies to the heroes below:

null(stun ff sword AA, leo is dead)

boros(potentially int/tank boros, can wipe leo out with omni)

raynor(silence and amp)

rancor(nuke snipe)

drake(lance martyr epilogue, FYI i am a tank)

micro(toss, team finishes)

vergil(kite to hell)

cyprus(same as vergil)

zera(oh man u cant run out of my ult with your speed, you die oh man)

shadow(same as zera)

medic(usually leos are rly lame, so they wont notice the "invulnerable" text)

nova(leo will die while getting to her, another option is to web him and then troll at 5 range)

lz(he has enough resist to withstand the aa hell, and then team kills leo who cant run off the lz ring)

 

But the Ultimate counter is... the thing called "teamwork", if the enemy has leo you should introduce it to the pubbers they unlikely did hear about that.

[WhaleTits]

um

 

not really

 

nothing can tank kitty late game

 

best bet is 5 electric mantles and a few shrapnels, or possibly lockbox/small hadron to stay away from him for the duration of his ult. or stun lock. but of course he can grab a parralax or his own small hadron

 

[Midknight]

...nothing can tank kitty late game

 

How about another kitty?

[Spooky]

leo dies to the heroes below:

null(stun ff sword AA, leo is dead)

boros(potentially int/tank boros, can wipe leo out with omni)

raynor(silence and amp)

rancor(nuke snipe)

drake(lance martyr epilogue, FYI i am a tank)

micro(toss, team finishes)

vergil(kite to hell)

cyprus(same as vergil)

zera(oh man u cant run out of my ult with your speed, you die oh man)

shadow(same as zera)

medic(usually leos are rly lame, so they wont notice the "invulnerable" text)

nova(leo will die while getting to her, another option is to web him and then troll at 5 range)

lz(he has enough resist to withstand the aa hell, and then team kills leo who cant run off the lz ring)

 

But the Ultimate counter is... the thing called "teamwork", if the enemy has leo you should introduce it to the pubbers they unlikely did hear about that.

Let me quote myself

 

its hard to see his potential in pubs though when your enemies very rarely are at the same place and your teammates have no idea how to initiate

I may add 'and in environment where there are no regular team fights'. Many of your counter suggestions are based on wrong assumption - Leo will be present in team fight from the beginning of team fight. So for example Drake will use ultimate before Leo will show up, Micro will toss someone else, Raynor will 'waste' silence shot and so on. If everyone decide to 'save' their abilities for Leo they will loose 4v5 team fight anyway. U see, good Leo is played in similar way to shadow - he is ninja - waiting for right moment to step in and finish survivors and earn monster kill. Difference between Shadow and Leo is that Shadow usually hits only one target while Leo everyone around. And as was mentioned before, good Leo going to have Parallax, so Shrapnel, Lockbox or Taser may fail. So the only viable counter to Leo would be:

- shadow vortex,

- lz ring (he can sacrifice himself for greater good)

- zeratul ulti

- hard casters like cyprus or vergil, of course if they not 'waste' their abilities on someone else and its enough to kill him fast.

- huge amount of CC - team of disablers, but in this case no one will decide to play Leo anyway, because it would be total waste

[WhaleTits]

How about another kitty?

 

they both just instantly die if they start scratching at each other, so.. no, nothing can tank kitty late game

[Spooky]

Really the only reason a Leo can get a triple or monster kills is because the only time he can run in to kill is when everyone is almost dead lol

Its not entirely true but its nice when at least one player is low health so Leo can get movement speed buff. However late game he can take down full health heroes in few seconds, he only needs some abilities to be on cooldown

[Ironsights]

The tychus build I described in the character guides can handle a Pub kitty so long as you dont shoot it when its red:

 

dunno if I could tackle a IH kitty or not, but an IH tychus ought to be able to, I would imagine.

[WhaleTits]

eh. eu builds kitty weapon damage. so probably. na builds kitty int with some wpn dmg. so probably not

[Kbizzle]

Any decent Leo player will get a parallax as his biggest count is cc, until parallax Is nerfed Leo will be regarded extremely strong as there is no counter to him late... and maybe his ultimate does abit too much damage, his reflect is situational....

 

I agree with this 100%. The reflect is easily countered, its that damn ulti with his attack speed that ruins everyone. I dont think it needs a dramatic nerf, but with his speed/mobility, reflect, and passive, he can easily take a slight Ulti damage nerf and still be a fantastic character.

[Spooky]

eh. eu builds kitty weapon damage. so probably. na builds kitty int with some wpn dmg. so probably not

I've played kitty only 2 times in inhouses so far and wasn't able finish build. I've started like I saw Booom did and it looks like weapon damage based build (it starts from HoM, Masamune), but later it switches into more INT (Ihan, Argus, Gravity, YR). At least that was the goal. He had similar idea as far as I know and besides him I haven't seen anyone playing Leo on EU recently. Anyway even before he get any INT items he can easily get monster kills mainly because of weapon speed (ulti ticks). I can't even imagine how he can rape with finished build...

[Torcas]

i play kitty allot and have found that agi builds of him to be my favorite. With cay you can easily get the 500ish agi for max attack spd have 60ish armor and move at 5.5 base move. build: phase cloak->phantom->sliptide->(agressors or hive symb or bhm)->(other option)->(last of the 3)->(shinobi)-> after this you can sell the phantom if you need a utility item. With this build he might as well not take dmg from AA carries and still deals 500 dps with ult on.

[Firnefex]

i play kitty allot and have found that agi builds of him to be my favorite. With cay you can easily get the 500ish agi for max attack spd have 60ish armor and move at 5.5 base move. build: phase cloak->phantom->sliptide->(agressors or hive symb or bhm)->(other option)->(last of the 3)->(shinobi)-> after this you can sell the phantom if you need a utility item. With this build he might as well not take dmg from AA carries and still deals 500 dps with ult on.

You deal >1000 dps in an INT-build just with your ulti alone!

[Doom]

U see, good Leo is played in similar way to shadow - he is ninja - waiting for right moment to step in and finish survivors and earn monster kill. Difference between Shadow and Leo is that Shadow usually hits only one target while Leo everyone around.

 

[jamescossey]

the only thing strong on leo is his ultimate once the player gets max attack speed and gravity edge. his other abilities are not that bad. but when he has 400 weapon damage with kahli blade in there and explosive retrofit. as well as his ultimate hitting for 300 spell damage he is deadly vs 1v1 or even 1v5. doing 940 damage before midigation on his target per attack and 500 damage to the other targets. i think his ultimate should be reduced to either a shorter timer of about 5 seconds or to like 5 procs.