Time to quit pyre?

[sTeveN]

Pyre deals spell dmg, it's fairly easy to stack SR, and the new patch nerfs pyre. It gives too tiny weapon dmg bonus. I used to keep it late game for the unique passive. But comparing to contamination shard (65 wpn dmg, 20% physical amp, and it's very hard to stack PR or armor), pyre isn't a good item to get.

[Ironsights]

considering it gives you weapons speed, weapon damage, and a "free" spell hit with each attack, I'd say pyre is still a good dps item.

[Rem]

excellent vs heros with good armor, IE any agi character. pretty easy to stack 70% resist on an agi char

[rayn]

actually think hes about right, contam shard is cheaper and better atm.

getting AS elsewhere isnt really an issue.

 

hell even in pubs im seeing about 50-75% less AA agi heroes being played (~last 10-15 games)

[miracle]

excellent vs heros with good armor, IE any agi character. pretty easy to stack 70% resist on an agi char

 

you mean physics resist ?

 

Maybe I'll replace pyre by ocelot's revolver or phase cloak.

[Ironsights]

actually think hes about right, contam shard is cheaper and better atm.

getting AS elsewhere isnt really an issue.

 

hell even in pubs im seeing about 50-75% less AA agi heroes being played (~last 10-15 games)

 

Sounds great to me. I'd love to see the agi-rape fade away and all heroes viable again

[Rem]

Yes, tends to be what resist armor gives you ^_^ and ocelots is only good if you have a pretty spamable skill like gruntys shotgun. Uless your a burst caster making a stars fury

[akanna]

Prye was stupidly good and amazing vs everyone

It was an item a lot of people rushed for and a must have vs tanks

 

Now you are better off getting it later in game since the spell dps is much lower, and its really not that effective vs tanks late game due to the scaling (gets weaker every hit) and high spell resist they usually have

Will prob see more crit plays to compensate

 

too bad so few items add spell damage on hit :/

 

flare gun/ sunflare became a lot more valuable tho I guess

 

Agree with steven that shard is prob better to get

it combos well with crit and does a lot more than prye in early to mid game atm

[residente]

Buy both and win

[Nuparu]

Solution to lack of Pyre:

A. Sunflare Gun (only certain heroes with an INT scale, like DARPA)

B. Sliptide Scythe (50 AGI = 25 weapon damage for AGI heroes + 16.5% weapon speed and 50 damage on attack + spell resist + movespeed = win?)

[heimdallr]

every item has its uses...diferent kind of tanks are different...pyre is still cool to prevente certain kind of heroes massing organics with maybe 1 FoE in between

vs high hp with good armor vs agi heroes then its still cool to have pyre and maybe explosive retrofit.....retro ads a fixed spell dam while pyre takes health chuncks when enemies have all health,...enemy has good spell resist? how much? is he forsaking armor or hp for the spell resist? noone can be inmune to everything....pyre is still good in some situations but there are other items better in their respective situations....its just that pyre is no longet THE best all in item and now you will get it if the situation calls for it and not as a staple

[Itsthatguy]

Pyre good vs casters :D. Also helps slightly for training but besides that hm. The Spell damage overall if still very good. It allows you to do mutiple types of damage at the same time (Both spell and physical).

[FruitNinja]

Stacking armor isn't hard, and armor is not subject to diminishing returns in this game (1 point of armor always reduces 3% of the damage you are taking now).

[heimdallr]

Stacking armor isn't hard, and armor is not subject to diminishing returns in this game (1 point of armor always reduces 3% of the damage you are taking now).

 

not sure or ataining 34 armor would mean over 100% resist....barbed(10), chilling (9), superheated(9?)....some other armor item.....sowhat you say is 4 items can give inmunity to physical damage? for agi heroes do to natural armor maybe 3 items...dont think so

[Ironsights]

not sure or ataining 34 armor would mean over 100% resist....barbed(10), chilling (9), superheated(9?)....some other armor item.....sowhat you say is 4 items can give inmunity to physical damage? for agi heroes do to natural armor maybe 3 items...dont think so

 

ya, end game it is not uncommon for me to have over 100 agility on some characters...thus 300% reduction....so basically I heal when you hit me? Na...that isn't happening.

[VasyaKot]

Stacking armor isn't hard, and armor is not subject to diminishing returns in this game (1 point of armor always reduces 3% of the damage you are taking now).

Test this. Armor is subject to diminishing returns.

[Rem]

reread what he says again.

 

It reduces your current dmg by 3% not total dmg.

[JohnRipley]

Solution to lack of Pyre:

A. Sunflare Gun (only certain heroes with an INT scale, like DARPA)

B. Sliptide Scythe (50 AGI = 25 weapon damage for AGI heroes + 16.5% weapon speed and 50 damage on attack + spell resist + movespeed = win?)

 

A bit more expensive though.

Lightning rod is new pyre and gives farming too.

[BestPlayer]

reread what he says again.

 

It reduces your current dmg by 3% not total dmg.

 

What!?

Who are you, anyway?

 

What he is saying is that of kourse armor is subjekt to diminishing returns... And it is! Would you beliewe it.

In other words 1 additional point of armor does NOT always reduse damage by 3%, as the higher your total armor walue, the less signifikant eash point of armor.

[Spooky]

What!?

Who are you, anyway?

 

What he is saying is that of kourse armor is subjekt to diminishing returns... And it is! Would you beliewe it.

In other words 1 additional point of armor does NOT always reduse damage by 3%, as the higher your total armor walue, the less signifikant eash point of armor.

Effectiveness of new points of armor is exactly the same no matter how much u already have. Each point reduce CURRENT damage by 3%, its simple equation: PR = 0.97^armor. So ye, there is natural diminishing returns but it has nothing to do with effectiveness. While each point gives less and less bonus physical resist (in terms of percentage value), it still keeps its effectiveness on the same level:

X - damage dealt

A - 20% PR = 0.8*X

B - 40% PR = 0.6*X

new 10 point of armor will change PR into:

A - 41% (+21%) = 0.59*X

B - 56% (+16%) = 0.44*X

Of course less physical resistance u have, more u get from one point of armor. But lets compare damage dealt differences:

A - 0.59*X / 0.8*X = 0.73 = 0.97^10

B - 0.44*X / 0.6*X = 0.73 = 0.97^10

 

So conclusion is simple. Effectiveness of new point of armor stay the same no matter how much u already have. However each percent of physical resistance is more effective more resistance u already have.

 

And what kind of argument is 'who are u'? Like it has anything to do with being wrong or not... in this case u was.

 

@OP

Pyre still does significant amount of spell damage. Even if target health drop to 1000HP it does additional 60 spell damage. Its still great mid game item when heroes has quite low armor and it isn't hard to kill them when they are low health. However late game without criticals or high burst damage is hard to kill the hero. The problem isn't in Pyre, problem is in very high armor values and physical resistance. Physical damage almost no exist late game. Contamination Shard can't do to much about 80% physical resistance. In my opinion armor growth per AGI point should get lowered into more reasonable value.

[BestPlayer]

Effectiveness of new points of armor is exactly the same no matter how much u already have. Each point reduce CURRENT damage by 3%, its simple equation: PR = 0.97^armor. So ye, there is natural diminishing returns but it has nothing to do with effectiveness. While each point gives less and less bonus physical resist (in terms of percentage value), it still keeps its effectiveness on the same level:

X - damage dealt

A - 20% PR = 0.8*X

B - 40% PR = 0.6*X

new 10 point of armor will change PR into:

A - 41% (+21%) = 0.59*X

B - 56% (+16%) = 0.44*X

Of course less physical resistance u have, more u get from one point of armor. But lets compare damage dealt differences:

A - 0.59*X / 0.8*X = 0.73 = 0.97^10

B - 0.44*X / 0.6*X = 0.73 = 0.97^10

 

So conclusion is simple. Effectiveness of new point of armor stay the same no matter how much u already have. However each percent of physical resistance is more effective more resistance u already have.

 

And what kind of argument is 'who are u'? Like it has anything to do with being wrong or not... in this case u was.

 

@OP

Pyre still does significant amount of spell damage. Even if target health drop to 1000HP it does additional 60 spell damage. Its still great mid game item when heroes has quite low armor and it isn't hard to kill them when they are low health. However late game without criticals or high burst damage is hard to kill the hero. The problem isn't in Pyre, problem is in very high armor values and physical resistance. Physical damage almost no exist late game. Contamination Shard can't do to much about 80% physical resistance. In my opinion armor growth per AGI point should get lowered into more reasonable value.

 

Your argument is entirely invalid.

Armor has diminishing returns, it does not, not have diminishing returns.

 

In other words: No, I was not wrong. I am wrong about many things, but armor having diminishing returns is not one of them.

[Spooky]

Your argument is entirely invalid.

Armor has diminishing returns, it does not, not have diminishing returns.

 

In other words: No, I was not wrong. I am wrong about many things, but armor having diminishing returns is not one of them.

I haven't say armor doesn't have diminishing returns. It has if think how much physical resistance each point gives. However each point reduce damage by the same value, so it keeps its effectiveness, which I proved in my previous post. Its huge difference going from 10% into 20% physical resistance and going from 70% into 80%. Its each percent of physical resistance effectiveness is changing along with higher values, not armor.

[BestPlayer]

I haven't say armor doesn't have diminishing returns. It has if think how much physical resistance each point gives. However each point reduce damage by the same value, so it keeps its effectiveness, which I proved in my previous post. Its huge difference going from 10% into 20% physical resistance and going from 70% into 80%. Its each percent of physical resistance effectiveness is changing along with higher values, not armor.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

"Diminishing returns" means you attain less physical resist per armor point at higher total armor values.

[Midknight]

"Diminishing Returns" means that the same value gives less benefit. In this case, the value of having 3% cut off the damage you currently take is going to float based on how much damage you're currently taking. 3% off 1,000 damage is 30 points of mitigation. But if you first cut that 1,000 down to 100, then the same 3% is only 3 points. The value of that point of armor has diminished due to the effect of other physical mitigation. Just because it "always cuts 3% off the current value" doesn't mean it isn't diminishing. Or, to put it another way, say you have a coupon for 50% off Toodlycakepies. Toodlycakepies are on sale today for 50% off as well. If you use the coupon when the sale is on, you save 75% of the total price. Tomorrow, you buy Toodlycakepies at full price and you've saved, on average, 37.5%. By contrast, if you bought Toodlycakepies at 50% off on sale and saved your coupon for the next day, your average saving is 50%. Combining the coupon with the sale diminishes your savings compared to using them in sequence.

[VasyaKot]

Effectiveness of new points of armor is exactly the same no matter how much u already have. Each point reduce CURRENT damage by 3%, its simple equation: PR = 0.97^armor. So ye, there is natural diminishing returns but it has nothing to do with effectiveness. While each point gives less and less bonus physical resist (in terms of percentage value), it still keeps its effectiveness on the same level:

X - damage dealt

A - 20% PR = 0.8*X

B - 40% PR = 0.6*X

new 10 point of armor will change PR into:

A - 41% (+21%) = 0.59*X

B - 56% (+16%) = 0.44*X

Of course less physical resistance u have, more u get from one point of armor. But lets compare damage dealt differences:

A - 0.59*X / 0.8*X = 0.73 = 0.97^10

B - 0.44*X / 0.6*X = 0.73 = 0.97^10

 

So conclusion is simple. Effectiveness of new point of armor stay the same no matter how much u already have. However each percent of physical resistance is more effective more resistance u already have.

 

And what kind of argument is 'who are u'? Like it has anything to do with being wrong or not... in this case u was.

 

@OP

Pyre still does significant amount of spell damage. Even if target health drop to 1000HP it does additional 60 spell damage. Its still great mid game item when heroes has quite low armor and it isn't hard to kill them when they are low health. However late game without criticals or high burst damage is hard to kill the hero. The problem isn't in Pyre, problem is in very high armor values and physical resistance. Physical damage almost no exist late game. Contamination Shard can't do to much about 80% physical resistance. In my opinion armor growth per AGI point should get lowered into more reasonable value.

Crit this armor to pieces and the shadow will cry the day he decided to stack agi :/