New Pyre (1.70)

[tukeykramer]

While it was clear that Pyre got nerfed in patch 1.70, the nature of the nerf may not be intuitively clear. I was told that the change to Pyre was intended to make the item more of an anti-tank item and less effective against non-tanks. I'm not sure if that was the actual intent behind the change, but I think that is a reasonable goal. Also, I am not opposed to an overall nerf to Pyre, as I believe the item was one of the strongest in the game (especially given the cost).

 

However, the change to Pyre does little to reduce damage dealt to non-tanks, while significantly reducing damage dealt to tanks. To illustrate, I put together the graph below.

 

 

 

 

As you can see, the new Pyre almost always does less average damage per auto attack. However, Pyre's damage output is by far reduced the most against tanks. This seems to run counter to the stated purpose of the change (as it was explained to me). That is, while this change does nerf Pyre overall, it makes Pyre much less effective against tanks, while making is somewhat less effective against non-tanks. Note that as a simplification I've assumed that the enemy hero has no spell resistance (including base spell resistance). However, in reality, tanks often have more spell resistance than non-tanks, meaning Pyre is much less effective against tanks (in any iteration) than it would appear based on this graph.

 

If Pyre is intended to primarily be an anti-tank item, I suggest that Pyre damage be quadratic. For example, Pyre could deal spell damage equal to 0.05 percent of (Enemy Health)^1.5. While such a calculation may seem unfriendly to novice players (or overly complex for a tooltip description), I would argue that such a calculation is actually much more straightforward and intuitive than the latest iteration of Pyre (which may be unfriendly to novice players who may miss the critical word, "current" or who may otherwise fail to realize the actual damage potential of Pyre). To give you an idea of the damage potential of my proposed Pyre, I added it to my original graph:

 

 

 

 

Note that the values could easily be tweaked to make Pyre more or less effective against tanks or non-tanks. For example, a pyre that dealt spell damage equal to 0.0009 percent of enemy (Base Health)^2 would be much less effective against non-tanks and much more effective against tanks.

 

EDIT:

 

Here's what the graph looks like with increasing spell resistance. My calculations are based on the following levels of spell resistance: 20% 25% 35% 45% 55% 60% 70% 75% when going from 1k to 8k health respectively. Note that Drake can achieve approximately 75 percent spell resistance with only a spell buffer, an electric mantle, and the spell resistance talent. Thus, 75 percent spell resistance is not difficult to achieve nor does it make it impossible to build very tanky.

 

 

 

[WhaleTits]

bravo

[FruitNinja]

This would be good, but it requires trigger work, whereas the current pyre is done using data only afaik.

[tukeykramer]

This would be good, but it requires trigger work, whereas the current pyre is done using data only afaik.

 

The old Pyre was 0.05*(Base Health), the new Pyre is 0.06*(Current Health), and my suggested Pyre would be 0.0005*((Current Health)^1.5). How would my proposal require any additional trigger work?

[Adversary]

you have too much time on your hands. First the rating system now making graphs for items? da fuq

[WhaleTits]

accountant OP

[tukeykramer]

you have too much time on your hands. First the rating system now making graphs for items? da fuq

 

I know--20 whole minutes down the drain for this thread plus maybe 2 hours (tops) making the rating system... What will I do with my life now that I have wasted so much time?!?

[BestPlayer]

yeah theres a big differense between how the old pyre melted a 9k hp tank to the new one

wat

[neogeo]

no reason to buy the new pyre.

[Ironsights]

Well, I for one really like the nerf to pyre.

 

Before, when playing a tank, pyre just ate your soul. I understand it was meant as a "counter tank" item, but it was working as a "tanks are food" item. The whole point of a tank is to be able to soak damage and be a threat while your team cleans up...a couple of AA's with pyres and you were insta-gibbed.

 

making pyre effect CURRENT health seems perfect to me. It makes it so that in the begginings of a fight, you can still put some significant hurt on a tank, but as the tank takes a beating he is actually surviving for a while...tanking.

 

While your graphs are accurate, I think they miss the point. Your average AA or caster, even into the late game, has only 2000 HP, give or take. 3000 if they built "tanky". A Tank on the other hand often has 5000 hp or more...meaning hitting them for their MAX HP is always going to hurt them, a lot.

 

Honestly, pyre was too potent...so potent it made other items unappealing. When making a build, and you have room for one last weapon speed item...stun baton or pyre? Non-issue, its pyre every time. Now? Now it doesn't have to be.

[RedHydra]

As Ironsights said, Pyre was too potent, and it would still be if Pyre's effect is bipolar. The issue isn't so much with it being effective against non-tanks and tanks, or being a well-rounded item, it's the scaling of the damage. Pyre's initial design (The one based on max HP) made it too punishing to players gearing towards health, so we want to make it less severe by making it deal base on Current Health.

 

This graph displays how much Spell Damage, from Pyre, will deal when the enemy's health is at those numbers. While keeping in mind that Pyre deals less damage regressively, we currently feel that the Spell Damage inflicted alone is reasonable (and effective) for what the item is worth.

 

 

Pyre was not meant to be your primarily source of damage against tanks, and it never should be the optimal method to kill them. Rather, it's designed to be a supplement in a reasonable level. We want to avoid discouraging players from stacking health because they feel that it's very costly and counterintuitive. There wouldn't be a point of increasing your total health when there's an item that can quickly get you low.

[rayn]

i suggest the following:

 

remove the %weaponspeed from pyre and go back to the old 5% of max hp.

that way it will only be bought vs real tanks and not in general as one of the best ratio items.

[BestPlayer]

New pyre is still a great item, it's just no longer mandatory.

 

People whining are basikally those unable or unwilling to switsh up their build.

[neogeo]

old pyre make to play agi heros sometimes to simple. in every build you saw a pyre - the most important item.

lets see how to fight against tanks. the new pyre sounds difficult so far, because you cannot calculate your damage output - it becomes abstract.

[heimdallr]

I´d like to add to the pro comments that the old pyre killed a tank in so many hits REGARDLESS OF TANKY ITEM BUILDS...since the % damage dealt was based on max health killing said tank had a fixed mathematical limit of hit based on the spell damage pyre dealt alone(regardless of weapon damage and other stuff).

 

To explain this ina simplified way. If pyre would do 10% of max hp and you hit a squishy caster it will take at most 10 hits for a total of 100% of health. if you hit an agi carry itll take at most 10 hits to kill. If you hit the godlike tank of tankyness itll die in at most 10 hits. If you attack a character that has unreal values of health such as 100000000000000(unatainable in the game) it would still die on top 10 hits.

 

yes im not considering spell resist, life regen, etc.....but you get the point.

 

The current pyre at first will take a huge chunk of enemy health for the first hits, after which you will need more and more your own weapon damage/spell nukes to finish off. I remember when certain tanks would get pyre as their only damage dealing item cause all you had to do was get X amount of hits and enemy will die. Hell even int chars would get it sometimes to hit and run tanks until they could nuke them down with spells.

 

Now pyre still works kind of in the same way the sunflare gun active works....you want it to take a lot of hp fast at the start of an engagement so you benefit the most from the item, but the more life the tank has lost the less damage pyre will do and therefore the more you will need other items to kill them.

 

Its not cool to give a one item a 100% counter to a certain character build. Think shadowmourne for example. When it was first introduced it was auto-rape vs aa carries and squishy int chars stacking int. You were hit 1-2 times by shadowmourne and there was no way you´d live. Now it was nerfed to deal less weapon damage BUT still copies items. So squishy chars can still live stacking items that dont proc effects that will auto kill you and getting some hp. Pyre wise I´m surprised it took this long to get the nerf since after enemy got pyre tanks were auto dead....they sacrificed damage items in exchange for tankability that is(was) 100% denied by pyre. Now they´ll still get killed by pyre users but the diminishing returns on pyre damage will at least allow them to tank escape or something. U know....so str heroes who actually want to build str can do so

[Misantrophy]

Thanks for the explanations and detalis, I wasnt very sure about the new pyre being effective or not xD

[Hogwarts]

You do know why pyre was changed?

 

EU kids complained to ecko for about an hour a few nights ago and thus it was change

[EterNity]

TL;DR version of this post: Pyre not OP, can I have old one k?

 

Pyre was way effective considering its costs. The change was needed to address the issue.

 

Plus, there are many other items to be considered when building DPS, it gives diversity to the game instead of "o meh gah I need dat Prye. I nes it naw to be oooo peeee."

[Hogwarts]

meh, currently in the META tanks are op, cause all they need to do is put on electric mantle, and there golden, changing the pyre like this is only making tanks more viable imo,

 

Why do you think in pretty much every single IH 80%+ of the bans are tanks , and obv a tosh

[EterNity]

meh, currently in the META tanks are op, cause all they need to do is put on electric mantle, and there golden, changing the pyre like this is only making tanks more viable imo,

 

Why do you think in pretty much every single IH 80%+ of the bans are tanks , and obv a tosh

 

Currently, there are more carry hero than tanks and spell casters.

 

There is no way one team can get rid of all carries through bans.

 

However, there are only a handful of tanks: Micro, Tychus, Drake, Balrog.

 

Plus, most of the tanks are also initiators which is far more important to get rid off first in order to put your team in advantage.

 

Similar situation is happening to both DotA 2 and LoL as well.

 

Tank will always be banned first due to the netural of organized game.

 

If in the future, more tanks are introduced, the In House community will be banning other hero a lot more often.

[doxthefox]

Thanks for removing pyre from the game! It's even better than removing the Agil characters because now I can get myself barbed plating + ex axe and not worry about any Agil character stopping me. I like these graphs too. I'm a boss at excel! I promise to make a chart when I try the new patch a month or two from now. Unfortunately, this thread will be locked by then. O well.

[Doom]

Sunflare gun now the better option for lots of damage to be used before anything else. Granted you can only use it once, and only against one enemy but 400 base damage and 25% current (if you use it at start, Maximum) hp is much better than what pyre now gives. And it gives nice lifesteal and other good stats.

 

 

meh, currently in the META tanks are op, cause all they need to do is put on electric mantle, and there golden, changing the pyre like this is only making tanks more viable imo,

 

Why do you think in pretty much every single IH 80%+ of the bans are tanks , and obv a tosh

 

Because tanks are some of the best initiators in the game, and no one likes to be the guy that gets blinked on and tossed in the middle of the enemy team by Micro, or stunned by Rancor and plucked by Mandrake, or dragged by Roach into their death...... so on. Heavy dissable comps also like banning balrog, because he just makes some heroes, such as Jackson and Rory, near worthless if he plays well. In this game, dissables reign supreme above all so the trick to having a better team comp is to have more/better dissablers of your own, or abilities to neutralize that of the enemy team. Perhaps you do things differently now, but last I checked, no one banned Erekul, who is one of the best tanks in the game.

[tukeykramer]

yeah theres a big differense between how the old pyre melted a 9k hp tank to the new one

wat

 

I'm not sure what you consider "big," but a 43 percent reduction isn't exactly trivial.

 

Well, I for one really like the nerf to pyre.

 

Before, when playing a tank, pyre just ate your soul. I understand it was meant as a "counter tank" item, but it was working as a "tanks are food" item. The whole point of a tank is to be able to soak damage and be a threat while your team cleans up...a couple of AA's with pyres and you were insta-gibbed.

 

making pyre effect CURRENT health seems perfect to me. It makes it so that in the begginings of a fight, you can still put some significant hurt on a tank, but as the tank takes a beating he is actually surviving for a while...tanking.

 

While your graphs are accurate, I think they miss the point. Your average AA or caster, even into the late game, has only 2000 HP, give or take. 3000 if they built "tanky". A Tank on the other hand often has 5000 hp or more...meaning hitting them for their MAX HP is always going to hurt them, a lot.

 

Honestly, pyre was too potent...so potent it made other items unappealing. When making a build, and you have room for one last weapon speed item...stun baton or pyre? Non-issue, its pyre every time. Now? Now it doesn't have to be.

 

Before you accuse me of missing the point, perhaps you should read a bit more carefully. I prefaced my comments on the stated intent of the change: to make Pyre more of an anti-tank item. I also stated that I wasn't opposed to nerfing the old Pyre, since, as I stated, "I believe the item was one of the strongest in the game (especially given the cost)." Further, I wasn't aware of anyone arguing that the old Pyre was too strong of a counter to tanks. In fact, even with the old Pyre's damage, the general consensus of the IH community seemed to be that tanks were the strongest heroes in the game. The fact remains that the new Pyre is less effective overall, but also incrementally less effective against tanks. That is, the new Pyre is less of an anti-tank item.

 

As Ironsights said, Pyre was too potent, and it would still be if Pyre's effect is bipolar. The issue isn't so much with it being effective against non-tanks and tanks, or being a well-rounded item, it's the scaling of the damage. Pyre's initial design (The one based on max HP) made it too punishing to players gearing towards health, so we want to make it less severe by making it deal base on Current Health.

 

Too potent against whom? Again, I've already said I thought the old Pyre was one of the strongest items in the game, so I'm not opposed to a general nerf. Also, I am not sure what you mean by "bipolar," although I am pretty sure it's not the right word for conveying what you mean... Based on your comments here, your goal in changing Pyre was the opposite of what was explained to me. That is, you wanted to nerf Pyre and make is less of an anti-tank item. Is that right?

 

This graph displays how much Spell Damage, from Pyre, will deal when the enemy's health is at those numbers. While keeping in mind that Pyre deals less damage regressively, we currently feel that the Spell Damage inflicted alone is reasonable (and effective) for what the item is worth.

 

 

 

 

I never said anything about whether or not I thought the new Pyre was worth the cost. I simply pointed out that the change to Pyre did not accomplish the stated purpose for the change (i.e. rather than making it more of an anti-tank item, you made it less of an anti-tank item). Also, your graph has little incremental relevance to this discussion, as those initial damage values are already accounted for in the average damage values I calculated. Isn't Pyre intended to be more of an item that will do sustained damage to tanks? If you want to do burst damage to a tank, you get a Sunflare Gun...

 

Pyre was not meant to be your primarily source of damage against tanks, and it never should be the optimal method to kill them. Rather, it's designed to be a supplement in a reasonable level. We want to avoid discouraging players from stacking health because they feel that it's very costly and counterintuitive. There wouldn't be a point of increasing your total health when there's an item that can quickly get you low.

 

Even with a 9k HP enemy, old Pyre would not be your primary source of damage against tanks. Further, even with the old, OP Pyre, I am not aware of anyone complaining that Pyre made stacking health too costly and counterintuitive. While I agree that five percent is too much, given the cost of the item, we are still talking about something that would require 20 hits to kill an enemy hero by itself. Yes, old Pyre was too cost effective, but it hardly made tanks (and stacking health) useless. Again, tanks were already considered to be the strongest class of heroes in the current meta (even with the old Pyre).

 

I´d like to add to the pro comments that the old pyre killed a tank in so many hits REGARDLESS OF TANKY ITEM BUILDS...since the % damage dealt was based on max health killing said tank had a fixed mathematical limit of hit based on the spell damage pyre dealt alone(regardless of weapon damage and other stuff).

 

To explain this ina simplified way. If pyre would do 10% of max hp and you hit a squishy caster it will take at most 10 hits for a total of 100% of health. if you hit an agi carry itll take at most 10 hits to kill. If you hit the godlike tank of tankyness itll die in at most 10 hits. If you attack a character that has unreal values of health such as 100000000000000(unatainable in the game) it would still die on top 10 hits.

 

yes im not considering spell resist, life regen, etc.....but you get the point.

 

The current pyre at first will take a huge chunk of enemy health for the first hits, after which you will need more and more your own weapon damage/spell nukes to finish off. I remember when certain tanks would get pyre as their only damage dealing item cause all you had to do was get X amount of hits and enemy will die. Hell even int chars would get it sometimes to hit and run tanks until they could nuke them down with spells.

 

 

Now pyre still works kind of in the same way the sunflare gun active works....you want it to take a lot of hp fast at the start of an engagement so you benefit the most from the item, but the more life the tank has lost the less damage pyre will do and therefore the more you will need other items to kill them.

 

Its not cool to give a one item a 100% counter to a certain character build. Think shadowmourne for example. When it was first introduced it was auto-rape vs aa carries and squishy int chars stacking int. You were hit 1-2 times by shadowmourne and there was no way you´d live. Now it was nerfed to deal less weapon damage BUT still copies items. So squishy chars can still live stacking items that dont proc effects that will auto kill you and getting some hp. Pyre wise I´m surprised it took this long to get the nerf since after enemy got pyre tanks were auto dead....they sacrificed damage items in exchange for tankability that is(was) 100% denied by pyre. Now they´ll still get killed by pyre users but the diminishing returns on pyre damage will at least allow them to tank escape or something. U know....so str heroes who actually want to build str can do so

 

The math isn't hard--you need to get off 20 hits for old Pyre to kill an enemy by itself. Also, no one is saying that the old Pyre wasn't too strong or too cost-effective. However Pyre (even old Pyre) in no way "100% denied" tanks. In fact, I would argue that there are a number of items in the game that are harder counters to certain hero roles than old Pyre was a counter to tanks (e.g. electric mantle, barbed plating, executioner's axe, shadowmourne, and shrapnel cloak). When you factor in spell resist, we are talking about more (in some cases much more) than 20 hits (with the old Pyre). When you factor in all of the anti-AA items and abilities that an enemy team is likely to possess, it's extremely hard to get off 20+ hits. I'd hardly call that a "100%" counter to tanks...

 

 

TL;DR version of this post: Pyre not OP, can I have old one k?

 

Pyre was way effective considering its costs. The change was needed to address the issue.

 

Plus, there are many other items to be considered when building DPS, it gives diversity to the game instead of "o meh gah I need dat Prye. I nes it naw to be oooo peeee."

 

TL:DR of your post: "I didn't read your post but I'm going to make some completely off-base assumptions about what you said and criticize you based on those faulty assumptions." In fact, you even managed to ignore statements I made in the first paragraph of my post.

 

Bravo.

[heimdallr]

 

The math isn't hard--you need to get off 20 hits for old Pyre to kill an enemy by itself. Also, no one is saying that the old Pyre wasn't too strong or too cost-effective. However Pyre (even old Pyre) in no way "100% denied" tanks. In fact, I would argue that there are a number of items in the game that are harder counters to certain hero roles than old Pyre was a counter to tanks (e.g. electric mantle, barbed plating, executioner's axe, shadowmourne, and shrapnel cloak). When you factor in spell resist, we are talking about more (in some cases much more) than 20 hits (with the old Pyre). When you factor in all of the anti-AA items and abilities that an enemy team is likely to possess, it's extremely hard to get off 20+ hits. I'd hardly call that a "100%" counter to tanks...

 

 

it is a team game.....any disabling spell or items + a char with pyre + very fast attack speed and you can land hits really fast....also those 20 + hits arn´t counting the base weapon damage and other effects on target items.....also....if someone(not even yourself but maybe some caster char) has sunflare thats already less hits to get....imagine sunflare, shrapnel, magnetic link(for example) while nova pyres you to death....i guarantee the amount of hits are easy to get(been there, done that.....as a tank, as a carry, and as a support utility item character, and as a disabler)....works every time....and the more characters that have pyre and focus fire a single guy the easier it gets...sometimes the best hope for said team is to utility/disable enemy team first and have their own team fully pyred and focus fire fast.....it once became a matter of who could shrapnel enemy team first(yeah I lost that game) but having pyre changed the way it was is IMO a step in the right direction...you will likely see noone getting pyre as their first damage item but instead always getting a real damage item and after damage and leech are present IF someone is too tanky then get pyre to help. Not just pyre I win I play agi carries kind of build. It was probably easier to nerf pyre than to nerf all typical carries you see every game.

[FruitNinja]

The old Pyre was 0.05*(Base Health), the new Pyre is 0.06*(Current Health), and my suggested Pyre would be 0.0005*((Current Health)^1.5). How would my proposal require any additional trigger work?

 

Because there is no exponent modifier in the data editor.

 

There is a field called "Vital Fraction," and you can set it to maximum or current. It adds damage to an effect equal to the specified fraction of the target's life. As such, ekco would have to make pyre add damage using triggers.