Minimap & UI Changes

[Qlx]

Hi,

Let's see what the majority thinks.

 

EDIT: For very constructive, specific feedback with explanation and no argumentation about other posts please use this thread

EDIT: My suggestion.

EDIT: Another suggestion, by MuskieSlap

EDIT: http://www.aeonofsto...flip-interface/

EDIT: Since Januar the 13th the option to flip the interface exists.

[xNOVAxPRIMEx]

I had a chance yesterday to take a look at it, and i found that instinctively was looking to the left. I may or may not get used to it being the the right corner but i use the mini map often and i now appreciate the smooth swipe from bottom left up to top right when moving around. I felt that as i clicked mini map I went back to the middle then up to the right. This seemed a bit inconvenient regardless if you were used to it or not. I didnt try it out from zerg side so I'm not sure how much of a difference it would be from that side but i assume relatively the same.

 

For the UI at first glance i thought it looked really awesome and then i started to feel a bit lost. I could not find the Talents menu i just relied on the hotkey "T" and then realized where it was. After hitting Level 18 I had barelynoticed i was sitting on 3 points to put into stats. Now that i know it may not be a problem but I have seen some arguments about it not being very "noob friendly." At this point I'd have to agree if i came into the game looking at it with this new layout I'd find it rather difficult to adjust from other SC games.

 

I will say I'm all for the ideas of creating more space and I believe that was achieved. I dont think its ready to be implemented by far but after some tweaking and polishing off whatever needs to be done the new layout will be very successful.

[Qlx]

I will say I'm all for the ideas of creating more space and I believe that was achieved. I dont think its ready to be implemented by far but after some tweaking and polishing off whatever needs to be done the new layout will be very successful.

Except the Minimap. 0 Votes so far ;)

[xNOVAxPRIMEx]

Except the Minimap. 0 Votes so far ;)

 

I was under the impression the mini map was shrunk down a bit to create more space. Its possible i may have misunderstood with all the posts and complaints. They are all starting to run together >.<

[Ironsights]

The mini map NEEDS to be in the left corner specifically because it is easy to click on. I often move around using the minimap, since it is "global" and fast acting, ordering attack-moves, shift queues an the like using the minimap.

 

Moving the minimap makes doing this harder and slower, actually making the game harder to play.

 

The UI was --FINE--

 

no reason to change it at all. Effort and time would be better spent fixing ridiculous issues in teh game, such as the tentalcle bug and the cloak/burrow bug.

 

Both of those are actually game breaking and seriously annoying. the UI was fine.

[Jaysi]

I would like to see a smaller UI and I do understand the reasoning for moving the minimap. I found myself at the top as the zerg and was chasing an enemy towards their tower but I couldn't see the tower because it was behind the middle UI at the bottom, so I ended up chasing too far and dying... Which most of you will say I should have scrolled down or known where the tower is and that I'm a scrub etc... But why not reduce the size of the UI if we can? More visibility would be great in my opinion...

 

And as Ecko said, the game runs bottom left to top right, the minimap is in the bottom left, therefore when moving towards the bottom left you may accidentally click on the minimap instead of the ground, moving your unit in a direction that is not intended. I would prefer to keep the mini map because it is how it is in the rest of SC 2 and as well as in the original SC, so the most ideal solution would be to make the map go from top left to bottom right and keep minimap. But that would take a lot more work. So i suggested the next time he remakes the map like he has for every other version that he just changes the direction so the minimap will be in the most natural position to a SC player.

[Wrath]

The UI was --FINE--

 

no reason to change it at all. Effort and time would be better spent fixing ridiculous issues in teh game, such as the tentalcle bug and the cloak/burrow bug.

 

Both of those are actually game breaking and seriously annoying. the UI was fine.

 

The new interface is smaller and therefore affords more visibility, that itself is a good enough reason. It's also nice to put a more unique brand on AoS than to just use the default everything. It looks more polished and more interesting now.

 

Plenty of time has been spent on bugs. The buying while silenced bug has been fixed, and so have the missing energy costs in the ability tooltips. Ecko is also trying hard to figure out what is causing the cloak bug, but it is significantly more complicated.

 

Try not to make assumptions and complain about stuff that you don't know.

[lOvOl]

OK because I will likely not be posting here anymore once I probably retire from the game, I might as well give some constructive advice on why I personally think these changes in the UI are REALLLLLLLLLLLY BAD!

 

(1) In user interface design for standard WIMP GUI's, the edges of the screen and in particular the corners are very important and special because user's don't need a lot of dexterity to hit those spots since if they overscroll they will just stay stuck in the corner or the edge. Unfortunately, when it comes to the minimap placement there is no good reason for it to be in either corner under this logic because using the minimap requires precise clicking so the overscroll advantage is moot when placing it in the corner. The best place for the minimap would be in the center top or center bottom as it will always be visible in your line of sight since the action on average tends to happen in the center of the screen. You don't want the user to put too much effort in moving their eyes to see a very important element on the screen. If the minimap was merely cosmetic, putting the map in the bottom right corner would be the best place because that is the most out of sight location when actually playing the game. However, I personally probably spend around 50% of some games just looking at the minimap, rather than simply glancing (this of course makes getting ganked by Shadow annoying, but in those situations you just have to watch out for that) as I prefer to play strategically. In battles of course I am not looking at the minimap but if I am doing something passive like farming or just moving around from stop to spot I watch the minimap most of this time. If the devs seriously want to improve the game in a usability sense (of course ignoring people's normal preferences with SC2 with the minimap always being bottom left), then they would put the minimap in the bottom center and not the bottom corners.

 

(2) When it comes to toolbars and buttons and the like, you make your most frequently used items the most accessible (i.e. items being buttons rather than menuitems) and at least with western languages you lay out those items in preference from left to right, usually from top to down as well because people tend to compose text in that way. Of course, this is a computer game we are talking about and everything happens in the center, so you will want items and abilities to obviously hug reasonable close to the minimap in the center, but not so close that you can accidentally click on the minimap from a poor click. I would also group items in one row and abilities in another row so players who do point and click and don't use hotkeys (most players who are not serious players like most of the people on this forum) don't have to navigate to multiple unfamiliar spots on the screen to execute an action. You also do not want the icons hugging the very bottom of the screen as it is easy to scroll off the screen and do phantom clicks the way the abilities are accessible right now in the current beta map. In other words, where the items were before was mostly fine, but you want it hugging as close to the main window as you can and have plenty of space between those icons and the very bottom of the screen to address the phantom click problem.

 

(3) The, stop, hold fire, move, attack move, etc. buttons are something that has been in Blizzard RTS games since the beginning and something people are familiar with. Keep this on the far right including abilities. If you really want abilities to be more accessible, then perhaps move them more to the middle near the item icons, but leave those legacy commands in the 4x4 grid there so new players don't get super confused. This is in the least important part of the screen (bottom right) so there is no harm in keeping it there, even though if I were to do things from scratch I would put rarely used actions on that such as access to talents, etc.

 

(4) Since people read from left to right you want information you read but not necessarily interact with aligned from the left side of the screen. In this sense the minimap would be best in the left corner, except since you have to actually navigate it, you are going to have to move your mouse more distance than if the minimap was in the center. Also since you want the minimap pervasively visible because of its importance, you also don't want it in the left corner. In fact, big monitors may make you play better in battles but also make you ignore the minimap a lot more for this reason alone because it is more effort to not only glance at the minimap on the bottom left, but also to navigate it and some people are just lazy when it comes to that. However, for information you maybe need to pay attention to once a minute, you will want this on the left, so hero information like stats, levels, etc. should go there.

 

 

So going from left to right across the bottom of the screen (all in one rectangle, not cutouts which are unnecessary) you would have:

 

Left Corner - Static hero information, shop button, talents button

Left Center - Buffs, Debuffs, stacks, and other important transient information

Center - Minimap

Right Center - Items And Abilities

Right Corner - Control Grid

 

 

That would be how I would design the UI if I did it all from scratch and didn't have to worry about the "I fear change" response you get whenever you radically change a user interface people are accustomed to. That being said, even if you didn't have the "I fear change" issue to deal with, then putting the minimap on the bottom right is one of the worst places possible. I know other MOBA's like LoL do this, but those guys are idiots if you ask me because they have their logic backwards as far as what your goal with the user should be as the minimap is an extremely important part of the screen and should literally be front and center for this reason alone, not in the least visible part of the map. I mean, in most operating systems you have your notification area there because nobody ever looks at that area and when you want to get someone's attention you throw out a "popup" to get their attention. Those items you still want accessible but you don't want them drawing the user's attention from the main application space, which is why that stuff gets stuck in the bottom right. Apparently the geniuses at Riot games felt that putting one of the most important parts of a MOBA game in the worst possible spot made sense because it "freed" up more screen real estate for the main battle space. Yah that would make sense except in how important the minimap actually is in MOBA games. Unfortunately, because people have adapted to that bad layout they probably think they are in the right when almost half a century of research into UI design would say otherwise (yes I am a software dude who has coded professionally for over a decade and a half so though I don't consider my personal tastes better than everyone else's, I do know UI basics because I have to for what I do).

 

Anyways, I know a little about Ecko and nothing about Wrath but before I make my probable hiatus (yes I hate the UI changes that much) I hope my comments can be taken constructively in the very rare hope they can see at least some of what is wrong with the current beta UI and do something about it since "logic and reason" seem to be the words of the day. Or if they don't think my opinions matter because of my infamy on these forums, they can at least reread tukeykramer's recent posts which have been pretty thoughtful and on the mark about similiar criticisms.

[lOvOl]

The new interface is smaller and therefore affords more visibility, that itself is a good enough reason. It's also nice to put a more unique brand on AoS than to just use the default everything. It looks more polished and more interesting now.

 

Plenty of time has been spent on bugs. The buying while silenced bug has been fixed, and so have the missing energy costs in the ability tooltips. Ecko is also trying hard to figure out what is causing the cloak bug, but it is significantly more complicated.

 

Try not to make assumptions and complain about stuff that you don't know.

 

Smaller is worse when it comes to accessibility and readability. You obviously don't want to waste screen real estate on irrelevant stuff, but a smaller minimap just makes it harder to view and navigate with precision. Unless you plan on having AoS run on a smart phone, there is no reason to make the UI less accessible and require more effort to focus on. You obviously have some sort of coding background or else you would not be helping Ecko, so I am just curious what that happens to be exactly because some of these decisions are grounded on assumptions that simply don't make logical sense as I understand things when it comes to UI design. Not trying to denigate you or your coding skill because I really do respect what you guys have achieved, but since there are probably plenty of people who play this game who are coding nerds as well, they are probably scratching their head like I am when we read some of the justifications for what has been done recently.

[Eliwan]

Personally I love the smaller UI and I only want three things--

 

1) Minimap on the left to make it more new-player friendly and more appealing to SC players

 

2) HP bar in the center of the screen that turns red as you take damage

 

3) Energy bar in the center of the screen

 

Also WHY put the minimap in the center? Then it blocks the action [whereas in the corners it doesn't block much] even more.

[Nuparu]

I like this change, it makes it MUCH easier (in my opinion) to navigate back to base as Protoss without getting raped due to clicking the minimap.

 

And the new UI is kind of nice. I like it, personally. HP/Mana bars somewhere on the screen in a static area would be kind of nice, though.

[Misantrophy]

I think the items icons are too little, I mean, they are as important as spells when you are using actives.

[Nuparu]

I use hotkeys personally so that's why I don't have an issue.

 

I bound my keys to 1-6. Sucks I can't play Tosh, MK, or Tass though ;_;

[WhaleTits]

eh. tassadar is easy enough to play with 1-6 as item hotkeys. use tab to swap between hero/clone

 

trying to convince eckol to change the swap to ` key so that you don't open/close the scorescreen every time you switch units

[Wrath]

Smaller is worse when it comes to accessibility and readability. You obviously don't want to waste screen real estate on irrelevant stuff, but a smaller minimap just makes it harder to view and navigate with precision. Unless you plan on having AoS run on a smart phone, there is no reason to make the UI less accessible and require more effort to focus on. You obviously have some sort of coding background or else you would not be helping Ecko, so I am just curious what that happens to be exactly because some of these decisions are grounded on assumptions that simply don't make logical sense as I understand things when it comes to UI design. Not trying to denigate you or your coding skill because I really do respect what you guys have achieved, but since there are probably plenty of people who play this game who are coding nerds as well, they are probably scratching their head like I am when we read some of the justifications for what has been done recently.

 

I don't know where you keep getting the idea that the minimap has gotten smaller. The previous size of the map itself was 291 by 286. Now it is 300 by 292. It is actually a little bit larger, and the frame that goes around it is smaller than the old frame. You may want to get your facts straight.

 

When I say that the interface is smaller, I mean mostly that wasted space has been eliminated. As an example, look at the old unit info card. On small resolutions, the entire bottom console collapses so that it perfectly fits the old unit info card. However, at large resolutions, the entire bottom console merely expands, leaving large amounts of wasted, ugly, black space to the left and right of the unit info. By the nature of how we modified the interface, with the various elements anchored to the left, the right, and the center, this wasted space is now simply given back to the player.

 

The best place for the minimap would be in the center top or center bottom as it will always be visible in your line of sight since the action on average tends to happen in the center of the screen. You don't want the user to put too much effort in moving their eyes to see a very important element on the screen.

 

This argument makes no sense. Yes, you would see the minimap more - but it would also obstruct the action more! You yourself just said that the action tends to happen in the center of the screen. Why would you want to obscure it with the minimap!? I have seen nobody else of the opinion that the minimap should be in the center because the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. I've never even seen a game with that layout.

 

(2) When it comes to toolbars and buttons and the like, you make your most frequently used items the most accessible (i.e. items being buttons rather than menuitems) and at least with western languages you lay out those items in preference from left to right, usually from top to down as well because people tend to compose text in that way.

 

Your text analogy just as much supports our layout as it does yours. When text fills up a single line, it moves down to the next line. This is how our items are organized, in two rows from left to right. The variety of screen resolutions means you can either have the items in a single row in the middle, or in two rows on the side. We have opted for two rows on the side.

 

(3) The, stop, hold fire, move, attack move, etc. buttons are something that has been in Blizzard RTS games since the beginning and something people are familiar with. Keep this on the far right including abilities. If you really want abilities to be more accessible, then perhaps move them more to the middle near the item icons, but leave those legacy commands in the 4x4 grid there so new players don't get super confused. This is in the least important part of the screen (bottom right) so there is no harm in keeping it there, even though if I were to do things from scratch I would put rarely used actions on that such as access to talents, etc.

 

These buttons are entirely unnecessary. They have no cooldown, and every single player knows what they do, even new players. Other MOBAs remove these abilities and people still know how to use them. It is more valuable to free up screen space than leave these in.

 

(4) Since people read from left to right you want information you read but not necessarily interact with aligned from the left side of the screen. In this sense the minimap would be best in the left corner, except since you have to actually navigate it, you are going to have to move your mouse more distance than if the minimap was in the center.

 

You contradict yourself here. The minimap is information that you read AND interact with. If anything, the hero information is what you read but don't interact with, and in that sense belongs in the bottom left corner. You are actually arguing in favor of our layout here.

 

 

Edit:

I'd like to add that I firmly doubt that you have played an actual game using the new interface. No doubt you have looked at it without actually testing it during gameplay. People on Mumble have been playing the beta so much this week that it made it onto the Up and Coming on the front page of the Arcade, and they are getting used to it. Your prejudgements and the fact that you have not even tried it are the issue.

[Nuparu]

eh. tassadar is easy enough to play with 1-6 as item hotkeys. use tab to swap between hero/clone

 

trying to convince eckol to change the swap to ` key so that you don't open/close the scorescreen every time you switch units

The swap key is bound in your controls, I think. What i'd like to see changed is the "open score" screen to something on the F-list that isn't used.

[EterNity]

Yeah, I am sure this post is going to change the final decision.

[AdReNaLiNe]

OK because I will likely not be posting here anymore once I probably retire from the game, I might as well give some constructive advice on why I personally think these changes in the UI are REALLLLLLLLLLLY BAD!

 

omg owl is gonna retire is what no1 will be saying in these forums...and i get reported from this? i bet but idc

[WhaleTits]

omg wrath did what i could never do. ALL HAIL WRATH

[Ironsights]

The new interface is smaller and therefore affords more visibility, that itself is a good enough reason. It's also nice to put a more unique brand on AoS than to just use the default everything. It looks more polished and more interesting now.

 

Plenty of time has been spent on bugs. The buying while silenced bug has been fixed, and so have the missing energy costs in the ability tooltips. Ecko is also trying hard to figure out what is causing the cloak bug, but it is significantly more complicated.

 

Try not to make assumptions and complain about stuff that you don't know.

 

The new interface making moer visibility is NOT good enough a reason in my opinion. Your arguement there is lacking.

 

And I never said no time was being spent on bugs, I said that time spent on this change would have been better devoted to the bugs, and since the bugs still exist, I hold that my opinion is valid.

 

Also, this UI is not particularly original, since it looks damn near identicle to the one in League of Legends, so that is also an invalid arguement.

 

Have made zero assumptions nor complained about things I don't know. I am sorry that my line of reasoning offended you.

[lOvOl]

omg owl is gonna retire is what no1 will be saying in these forums...and i get reported from this? i bet but idc

 

If the gameplay is great (as I think it is right now in the most recent public patch) but the UI ruins the experience, the game is not worth playing anymore. I would of liked to step away from this game without a sour taste in my mouth though, but it appears the new UI designer is intractable in swaying his opinions. And this is not an ultimatum about continuing to play or not, but more like a feeling of disgust and disbelief about the proposed UI that actually makes it painful to play. And someone else told me how to get the beta map and I tried it out for quite a while (single player of course) and thought to myself that they can't really be serious about this stuff, but it seems pretty obvious the goal here lately with the developer blog threads is not to get feedback from the community, but rather to drum up approval from a handful of sycophants for radical changes to the user interface that were already set in stone before the debate even began.

[Wrath]

The new interface making moer visibility is NOT good enough a reason in my opinion. Your arguement there is lacking.

 

So, because your opinion is that more visibility is not worth it, my argument is lacking?

 

Edit: In fact, see the poll in this thread. It says that the UI should take less space according to the majority opinion.

 

And I never said no time was being spent on bugs, I said that time spent on this change would have been better devoted to the bugs, and since the bugs still exist, I hold that my opinion is valid.

 

How would you know? The beta hasn't been released yet. Several bugs have already been fixed and more fixes are already in progress.

[lOvOl]

omg wrath did what i could never do. ALL HAIL WRATH

 

What did you do to yourself. From what I hear you are a full-time LoLite these days.

[WhaleTits]

hm? i play both. why? i've kinda always played both. and the occasional dota 2

[Misantrophy]

Edit: In fact, see the poll in this thread. It says that the UI should take less space according to the majority opinion.

 

And it also says that the minimap should be in the left corner :P

And btw, your attitude doesnt seem to be very open to constructive criticism as many people have said that health/mana and items are too little with the new UI and you have just ignored those posts.