Doom Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 This is not a debate about whether lockbox is overpowered, or underpowered. This is a debate about the very purpose of this item, and if it should be in the game at all. Lockbox is used to help land skill shots or keep a target in position for other reasons such as escaping, chasing, etc. However, there are only a few heroes that actually truly benefit from it, and thus make it a worthwhile. Rory, Jakk, Boros are the main three, although there are some other that can find effective use of this item in unconventional builds. This item removes the little skill required for Rory to land molotov, or Boros to land Bola. Jakk's E mines stop being an area denial/farming spell, and become an effective mechanism for taking 80% of a squishy target's life. None of these heroes NEED this item, it makes their job so much easier, but they are not underpowered without it. I used to main Rory in 3.0, where you actually needed skill to land a Molotov. Every version since late v4 changed that, and what we have now is not even the best support item for it. Moltov and Bola are not hard to land at all.... they have a fairly large AoE, and besides, the point of some dissable heroes is to provide the stun needed for the pluck. Lockbox makes what used to be a 70% shot for the very best players, a 100% for even the worst. I am not going to discuss the balance of this item, because it doesn't matter. The item should not exist. The skill required to do well in the game has lessened. In the past, a significantly better player could carry 99% of the games with any hero. Right now, I simply don't pick certain heroes, because I know that I have 0 chance of winning with them. AA heroes dominate, a pub team of 5 AA carries are theoretically easy to counter, blah, blah, blah, and I can do it, when I outskill a vast majority of players in public games, but the more, and the better (herowise, not skillwise) the AA carries in the game of roughly equally skilled pubbers, the tinier the chance of that team losing. There are some other heroes, not AA, that in the right hands overpower, and destroy everything, mainly being Rancor, Null, Vergil, and Mandrake, but they are rare exceptions, that are also overpowed in pubs (I don't play Rancor often, but I think out of all the games since last 3 months, which were about 20, I didn't get more than 2 deaths with Rancor, and never less than 25 total assist + kills, except those games where other team rqed within minutes). As I was saying in the above paragraph (I got a little carried away), there is very little skill needed in this game now. Removing lockbox would increase the skill needed for some heroes without necessarily nerfing them directly. I don't understand why Rory, in theory a team-fight only hero, can go 1v1 vs the average hero, lockbox combo them, and then force them to back off, or get stevied/flared and die. Its not OP, that concept, but the fact that I cannot dodge an aparent "skillshot" with a hero that has strong mobility, further amplified by items, and used by a player that has ten times the skill of the other team combined...... that's wrong. Remove lockbox, pls. Wrath, Rem, Sciifighter and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuparu Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 To be honest, lockbox drops the skill needed for a lot of things. It's kind of a must nowadays on Rory simply because it reduces the skill needed to throw a molo by about 99%. And so does the automatic triggering items with low cooldown (Electric Mantle, Parallax Generator...) because they do the exact same thing. Drops the skill needed to play the damn game. EM should have a longer stun but an active which would make it less bullshap "I'm a tank, so I can get EM and laugh at your AA heroes all day" and moreso the "I'm initiating, so I'm going to stun the first AA hero i find, bring him over, and kill him" item. I'll never get why ekol decided that having so many passive benefits would be good for the game... (BTW, Null is no good in pubs. Formula for disaster is to play null and expect team support.) Sciifighter and Hanedog 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phyresis Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 +1 I agree with everything you said here Doom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sciifighter Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 I also agree... Its just sad^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsthatguy Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 WHAT ABOUT GARAMOND. He nub without it D: Psyght 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 I agree 110%, lockbox is not OP is just plain wrong to have in the game currently in its current state, I saw a mandrake use it VERY effectively (much like the boros bola, but scarier) and there is no counter to it except just kill the holder before they can get it off. I personally don't use it unless I'm gara (and building caster) because its just plain stupid to pubstomp by using one item that is worth around 2000 mins. All swann has to do to get a kill with a lock box is know the timing (which isn't THAT hard), use rebounder, and sunflare (or stevie if they are slow or are being stun locked). As for the argument, I believe that it would be more reasonable to change it to have it be a random durations anywhere from 1-3 seconds, this would cut down the skill shot abuse, but not make the item useless or practically non-existant. So, a random duration or even some form of immunity after the lockbox is over (to make it a better team support item) would be better. Well, any buff afterwards would be good, immunity or speed boost (even for enemies), along with the random duration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misantrophy Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 To be honest, lockbox drops the skill needed for a lot of things. It's kind of a must nowadays on Rory simply because it reduces the skill needed to throw a molo by about 99%. And so does the automatic triggering items with low cooldown (Electric Mantle, Parallax Generator...) because they do the exact same thing. Drops the skill needed to play the damn game. EM should have a longer stun but an active which would make it less bullshap "I'm a tank, so I can get EM and laugh at your AA heroes all day" and moreso the "I'm initiating, so I'm going to stun the first AA hero i find, bring him over, and kill him" item. I'll never get why ekol decided that having so many passive benefits would be good for the game... (BTW, Null is no good in pubs. Formula for disaster is to play null and expect team support.) If you are playing with an AA hero you have to play smart and be aware of that kind of things. Also, you should get spell resist and EM wont be affecting you even a little :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsthatguy Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 GASP! Change The item: Lockbox is replaced with an item that can place special turrets in a location :D Garamond's Turret is replaced with an item that removes enemies for 2.5 seconds. WIN :D Since turrets be useful to holding down an area if on defensive, and Garamond kinda needs Lockbox, while every other hero doesn't. :D Horrible suggestion but WATEVAR! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
residente Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 That item is just a copy of Eul's Scepter of Divinity (not sure if properly spelled). But that item shouldn't be removed because it makes Rory's life easy. Because of that rule, a lot of items should be removed because they make some heroes role eeeeeeeasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuparu Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 Um, Misanthropy, you forgot the part where it stuns you long enough for: 1. An enemy AA hero to rape you. 2. A enemy tank to silence/stun/throw you. 3. Shrapnel Cloak And the entire teams get it, then your AA heroes are worthless as they melt. And residente, it's just not rory... MarXX 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 People cry about a flobing item that has 1 active that besides making skill shots be easier to land, gives the same advantage to any player... The drake is plucking u too much? get a lockbox of ur own and lockbox urself... ur getting raped by lock-molo? Get a parallax and forget that rory even exists... Is the Lockbox annoying the shap out of ur so hard to play AA dumbass hero? Get a taser ... Oh wait, that would ruin your glass cannon build and drop ur WP below 500, damn, so bad :( heimdallr and HiTnRuN 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuparu Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 ^ Implying it's reasonable for a single item to make several actives much easier to launch and to make skillshots less skillful. I could care less if a Rory hit me with molo, but it does kinda suck when he has 100% hit rate and the team's jakk also melts you with his mines with about 1500 damage because he lockboxed you then threw them right on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 ^ Implying it's reasonable for a single item to make several actives much easier to launch and to make skillshots less skillful. I could care less if a Rory hit me with molo, but it does kinda suck when he has 100% hit rate and the team's jakk also melts you with his mines with about 1500 damage because he lockboxed you then threw them right on you. According to that reasoning lets remove leech and many other mechanics, because they make the game so much easier for certain heros... heimdallr and HiTnRuN 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aellectris Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 Mad cuz bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuparu Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 According to that reasoning lets remove leech and many other mechanics, because they make the game so much easier for certain heros... Lockbox does much more then leech does and lol Aellectris, for all i care it could remain, it just seems like the skill needed in this game is dropping... really... really... flobing... fast... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Posted January 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 People cry about a flobing item that has 1 active that besides making skill shots be easier to land, gives the same advantage to any player... A) I do not want skill shots to be easier to land, that's why it's called a "skill shot", because it takes skill....... A little bit, such as a DST, to massively slow enemies that attack you, enabling you to land Molotov 70% of the time, even if you are an attrocious player, is one thing..... lockbox is another. There is absolutely no chance of missing. I am not talking about balance. Sure, it's cost and low stats make it balanced enough, but I don't want it in the game because it just makes skill not matter. Right now, if you were to compare a superbly good Rory player, and a noob, you'd find that the good Rory doesn't go out of position, ever, places turrent and tent in better locations, probably has a better talent and item build...... but on the action that really counts, hitting Moltov.... they'd be equal. With lockbox, both would land Molotov 10/10 times. And I think that's wrong. B) 4 heroes (Jakk, Gara, Boros, Rory) are in my experience much better than anyone else with lockbox. From what other people say, Drake and a few others are also not bad. But are you serious, when you say that you think it's benefit is equal for ALL heroes? When we meet in pubs, you are often playing Nova. I don't see you getting Lockbox on her. Or do you not get lockbox on anyone? Is your Gara or Rory lockboxless? Cut the b.s. A tiny minority of heroes can use lockbox to good effect. The rest are better off with different items. Lockbox is only SEEN on those heroes, or perhaps people that are trying to counter Boros. The part about "same advantages to every player" should be "same advantages to every Jakk/Rory/Mule/Boros player". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOLLMAO Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 It's not really that hard to aim moly with rory.... lockbox are just for people who are too lazy to bother aiming... i.e. Aim from outside their sight, aim where they could move to, warpshard + q/shc Lockbox does has its easy abuse for the mentioned heroes, but it does has it useful factor into crippling opponents team by taking their carry/tank out or simply for avoiding damage. A 5 vs. 4/ x vs. x-1 teamfights in 2 seconds can influence the final result of the battle. As for skill levels, it does reduce the point of skill shots as it is only a one click item with a 100% chance of sucess. People just don't use lockbox as a team support item but rather self sustaining kills item. That's the main problem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydie Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 Trying use Gara without lockbox..it's necessary for high level play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banzaiguy Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 Well, back then there was the Hyperion Shield Generator which fulfilled roughly the same purpose as Lockbox, minus the quirks caused by a disappearing hero since it was actually just a stun+invulnerability. However, its huge cost of 5.3k made it quite difficult to get early on as a crutch, compared to lockbox which is easily attainable with such a low cost. Of course, the stats for lockbox are way too low to justify increasing the price to something like 4k. HSG gave great stats in addition to its active to make it worth it's price. So, maybe add a higgs-boson capacitor as an additional component and increase the recipe cost a little to give a substantial INT bonus. This would bump the price to 4kish, so while lockbox would still act as a crutch, people can't get it as easily anymore. Better players who don't rely too much on lockbox would also then be able to get better from forgoing lockbox compared to players who rush lockbox. Doom and Nuparu 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doxthefox Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 Lockbox... the ability to turn skill shot into a sure shot... in pokemon the equivalent of going from a pokeball to a masterball. Skill is overrated amirite! Qlx and Sciifighter 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitNinja Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 Problem: Lockbox is garamond's core item. However, I mostly agree. While we're at it, let's make taser a skillshot that passes through creeps to be fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 fix parallax and molo first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostEU Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 fix parallax and molo first Nothing to fix there. Working as intended. Its like saying parallax vs Egon, Darpa and everyone else with a DoT ability is broken when it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuparu Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 ^ Except how parallax makes Rory useless. FIX PLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostEU Posted January 1, 2013 Report Share Posted January 1, 2013 I see so Rory has Molotov as his only spell and cannot do anything other than spam molotov? Maybe l2p? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.