Reduce The Increased Lane Creep Spawn Count Please

[lOvOl]

Just lost a game as my computer went to 0 FPS where the other team was pretty much completely dominated and then the retort of one of their players was "buy a better computer" (the worst player on their team). Other team had all their towers down but their base tower but were able to more efficiently blast creeps away long enough (due to their heroes) that eventually lag got pretty bad and microing became bad enough that you could not target enemy heroes, and eventually so bad I could not even scroll the screen AT ALL. Long games get like this, but this is the first in a while I got 0 FPS.

 

So besides the ridiculous number of lane creeps late game causing massive performance problems for a lot of players there are other serious balance problems with the creep spawning fetish that I really just wish would go away. The suppressor creeps are cool, but just please keep the count of the primary lane creeps the same throughout the game and just buff their stats and make them give off more income.

 

Here are some obvious balance problems:

 

(1) You need a superheated mantle (not great but better than nothing) on a tanky hero without great AoE, a great AoE spell with high int scaling, or an AA hero with explosive retrofit (don't get it late game you lose in these situations). If you don't have that you lose the game from the other team not even having to attack you, just pushing lane creeps passively and letting them stack up. I think there is mostly a consensus among those I have talked to that this is super lame that you are forced to do this.

 

(2) Some heroes are rendered useless from the giant creep waves. Boros in particular (yah I know people love to hate on him) as it is impossible to clear all the lane creeps efficiently enough in a push to ever use your ultimate. Even if you bola a guy away from their towers there are still gonna be 50 creeps around you no matter what. Any hero without serious health and/or lifesteal is just gonna get owned by the creeps as well just trying to kill enemies due to creep aggro and the sheer number of creeps. This makes any build without carapace or lifesteal pointless late game because you can never sustain a push.

 

(3) Items like hive symbiosis become one of the most broken and overpowered items in the history of the game when there are 20000000000000 creeps around. You just never ever die past the hour mark if you have this item. Even with executioner's axe hitting you, you are still leeching like crazy and this is all due to the ridicuous numbers of creeps as well as the damage your allies are doing to enemy creeps. This item would be fine if creep madness were not a problem, but since it is a problem this really needs to be looked at. Also, Khaydarin absorber (yah a rarely used item I know) becomes extremely overpowered in the very late game (not as OP as symbiosis but still ridiculous), as you gain health so fast when pushing with creeps that its like you have a permanent lifetech nanosuit buff on all the time. In fact, hive symbiosis, lifetech nanosuit, and khaydarin with some other health items and unless you get completely bursted down, you will just be regenerating your health in an almost insane way.

 

 

At the very least, I am just wondering why there have to be more and more and more creeps as the game goes on because if I wanted to play tower defense, I could just click on the game two slots to the left on the custom game screen.

[Nuparu]

Get SHM, Explosive Retrofit...

 

There are solutions. Get a caster to kill a lot of them, like your favorite hero: Maar. Frost wave works well. And Jackson can also do it. And with the mass of AA heroes, one with the retro can burn through a lot of creeps at a reasonable time.

[Ironsights]

Couple things:

 

1-if you lost due to lag, and it wasn't battlenet's fault (that is, not everyone had lag) then you ARE at fault. No, not everyone can afford a better gaming computer, but at the same time you can't honestly expect game developers to balance games around the idea that lag WILL be present, can you?

 

2-You mentioned Boros. First off, the creep mechanicsare one of the only things that helps keep him balanced. Honestly, if you took away the creeps his ulti would be unbearable again, and you would likely have to accept a nerf to spell storm, which is over due anyway. Boros is FINE right now, change things and he's back to OP.

 

3-Also, how on earth can you honestly say that you can't clear creeps? I play (unix, tychus, lord zyrkhah, shadow, vespus, balrog) regularly, and never have a problem with creeps. Further, I watch many, many heroes slaughter waves even faster than I do...if YOU happen to choose one of the select few heroes who can't creep kill...not only is that your fault, but it begs the question "where is your team?"

 

4-I use both of those items you listed. Hive Symbiosis is very good, but axe nullifies it nicely, killing the creeps helps a lot, and it otherwise offers little as for stats. Its a crap shoot, and sometimes it pays off. As for the absorber...meh. I have found it underwhelming and ceased using it in favor of better items, suhc as symphonic (?) seed...much more appealing honestly.

 

 

Can you eleaborate, please? In all honesty this post feels liek a rage post, and I fear will be treated liek one unless you make your reasons more concrete.

[miracle]

When we clear all tower, some people just stand in base and said 0 FPS !

Please reduce creeps in late game.

[Nuparu]

How old are your guys' computers?

 

Mine is seven years old and still functions fine, only 18 FPS endgame but it's still 18 more then 0...

[Hogwarts]

creeps can be a little ridiculous but for the most part there fine you have know when to kill a melee or a range suppressor based on there hero comp, if they have a cow or a cyprus obviously u want to kill the melee suppressor etc..

 

 

but it sounds like your biggest problems are your own bad comp and bad team mates, come play on mumble bro to get balanced games, even if you buy a ridiculous item build no one will rage at ya

[WARBORN]

hey owl although i do agree with you on some things, but damn.. ppl still haveing lag/fps issues? i thought that was fixed after the dropper thing at load screen was done. I mean i dun lag nemore like i use2 during any part of the game after they fixed that. I have a pretty shapty computer too but runs the game just fine with 0 lag i have everything on the lowest settings tho..as i dont care for the flashy-ness of the game i just wanna do wurk. maybe turn ur settings down?

[Eliwan]

There was already a test that proved that creep count adds almost no lag, by having Ekcolnovkol triple the number of spawned creeps.

And no I'm actually serious, he did that.

 

Though I agree that maybe the spawn timer for the creeps could be reduced a touch [maybe 5 more seconds between waves]; if you want to just A+Click the enemy artifact temple when it gets that late in the game you probably should just buy aforementioned Hive Symbiosis and Khaydarin Absorber and do that, because everybody's probably fully item-maxxed anyway.

 

Actually I'm confused as to what the problem is, now that I think about it some more.

[Firnefex]

Not the number of creeps, but I thought if they are all interacting there is much damage calculation which reduce fps?

[Eliwan]

Well, each time you attack a creep that's 1 simple calculation [they all have 0 armor]

But in contrast when you attack a hero, that's multiple calculations [hero base resist, hero armor value, whatever else].

 

Also I don't get something about the hero base resistance-- if all units have base Physical and Spell Resistance... why don't we remove those and decrease the damage of abilities across the board? It would be easier to access because the damage listed would be the actual damage dealt unless they build SR/Armor... =\

[GhostEU]

Imagine its pathing and if creeps build up at a location, other creeps try to path around them to attack the artifact

 

While I get 0 issues with a new laptop, I do think that fewer but stronger creeps would be better (increase damage, hp) as otherwise they only damage those who don't have armor or leech (which is usually anyone not AGI and a few STR)

[lOvOl]

hey owl although i do agree with you on some things, but damn.. ppl still haveing lag/fps issues? i thought that was fixed after the dropper thing at load screen was done. I mean i dun lag nemore like i use2 during any part of the game after they fixed that. I have a pretty shapty computer too but runs the game just fine with 0 lag i have everything on the lowest settings tho..as i dont care for the flashy-ness of the game i just wanna do wurk. maybe turn ur settings down?

 

This game lasted over an hour and a half. Yah not a typical game, but lag can get really bad when literally every creep waves spawns over 20 creeps. Everyone was having problems, just mine was the worst. I already added RAM and a new video card recently to get around previous gaming performance problems. This is an issue that could easily probably be addressed by simply not having so much crap running around in the game.

 

Ohe weird thing is when one player left the game near the end (I presume he lagged out from his computer freezing up from FPS problems as well), my FPS jumped from 0 FPS to 2 FPS so maybe that evil Blizzard tracker is up to no good again back when every game had to have a dropper.

[Sciifighter]

Well is whats the blizztraker's name? Coz i got the same problems.

 

Like in really late game with 150creeps at nexus i cant really scroll there. If i go to another point of the map, my fps goes up to 15 or so from 0-1.

But actually its just sometimes.

 

Some days it isnt at all, the other day i lagg out...

I dont get it actually

[FruitNinja]

You should never lose a game because it drops to 0 fps. This is why I support making the games last shorter (40-50 minutes) so that we don't get this ridiculous stuff.

 

I had a two hour game once. The lag was so bad and I had so much money on vergil that I just sold my caster build and replaced it with all 1-a carry items. We won on the next push.

[lOvOl]

You should never lose a game because it drops to 0 fps. This is why I support making the games last shorter (40-50 minutes) so that we don't get this ridiculous stuff.

 

I had a two hour game once. The lag was so bad and I had so much money on vergil that I just sold my caster build and replaced it with all 1-a carry items. We won on the next push.

 

Well I was playing Jackson, but yah probably the standard AA build of pyre, explosive retrofit, and leech woulda been the best way to go cause when you can't use your skills you can't use your skills.

[Hurricane]

I actaully agree, strong creeps instead of more spammy ones would help reduce lag, do the same amount of dmg and last the same amount of time; it would just not let the losing team catch up as fast.

[Apollo]

Hmmm...Yeah I'd like to see these changes with creeps implemented aswell, even at the end of a match I want the focus to be hero play and not so much creep interaction :)

[Sciifighter]

Actually this is a nice idea. Make creeps stronger with time. Like evry 10 mins.

 

Edit:

But then, coz of lower creeps its harder to farm? So less starter friendly. Actually i want to hear noobs talk about lategame :D

[GhostEU]

Currently late game people just float minerals like crazy but have to deal with massive creepwaves without any reward as they are also lvl18. Reducing creep count brings on late game a bit later possibly and might make creep control more rewarding too.

[akanna]

Honestly the main problem is that the snowballing of creep waves makes it pretty much impossible to counter push or even defend effectively after awhile.

 

Nobody ever really takes down the artifact, its always 1231244141 creeps that flood the base and do it while the enemy team harasses and keeps you from killing them off.

Even if you manage to team whipe them, you simply dont have enough time to counterpush because you have 131242412 creeps to kill along the way, and the enemy heros are always back up by the time you get to their base

 

I can send you SS's of 60-100+ creeps flooding a base late game doing a full surround of the artifact

That many creeps is just plain excessive, and tends to cause a lot of lag for people

(although I suppose without it the game would never end in many cases)

 

As I said above my main beef with it is that it becomes so 1 sided you often cant comeback once the creep snowball starts. The massive number of creeps give you the money you need to even the playing field gear wise and win some teamfights, but you can never counter push because there are nonstop creep waves pushing into your base and killing your towers.

 

I also think that minerals are totally worthless in the late game and it would be nice to be able to spend them on more creeps / upgrades

Too often everyone is rocking 300-600 creep kills and floating 10-20K in minerals in the late game.

It would be nice for people to be able to use that money to augment their main push or buy colosi or something to defend your base(make it so they cant leave base) so you could actually counterpush for once on defense

 

I think it would change the flow of the game to have upgrades to buy for towers etc, options to purchase mercenary units to defend the base or push with attack waves, and upgrades to units

Giving people a choice between stronger towers with various abilities, augmenting their next creep wave(s) with numbers or special abilities, and buying gear to make their hero better

This would add a whole nother layer of strategy to the game and it would also finally set us apart from DOTA and LOL

I mean we are clearly playing towerdefense these days so why not bring in the better elements of that genre (upgrades and mercenaries)

[Hurricane]

Honestly the main problem is that the snowballing of creep waves makes it pretty much impossible to counter push or even defend effectively after awhile.

 

Nobody ever really takes down the artifact, its always 1231244141 creeps that flood the base and do it while the enemy team harasses and keeps you from killing them off.

Even if you manage to team whipe them, you simply dont have enough time to counterpush because you have 131242412 creeps to kill along the way, and the enemy heros are always back up by the time you get to their base

 

I can send you SS's of 60-100+ creeps flooding a base late game doing a full surround of the artifact

That many creeps is just plain excessive, and tends to cause a lot of lag for people

(although I suppose without it the game would never end in many cases)

 

As I said above my main beef with it is that it becomes so 1 sided you often cant comeback once the creep snowball starts. The massive number of creeps give you the money you need to even the playing field gear wise and win some teamfights, but you can never counter push because there are nonstop creep waves pushing into your base and killing your towers.

 

I also think that minerals are totally worthless in the late game and it would be nice to be able to spend them on more creeps / upgrades

Too often everyone is rocking 300-600 creep kills and floating 10-20K in minerals in the late game.

It would be nice for people to be able to use that money to augment their main push or buy colosi or something to defend your base(make it so they cant leave base) so you could actually counterpush for once on defense

 

I think it would change the flow of the game to have upgrades to buy for towers etc, options to purchase mercenary units to defend the base or push with attack waves, and upgrades to units

Giving people a choice between stronger towers with various abilities, augmenting their next creep wave(s) with numbers or special abilities, and buying gear to make their hero better

This would add a whole nother layer of strategy to the game and it would also finally set us apart from DOTA and LOL

I mean we are clearly playing towerdefense these days so why not bring in the better elements of that genre (upgrades and mercenaries)

 

I disagree; this sounds like a good idea but it would make the game way too long and even more a farmville than it is later on. It would be cool to have a mode like this though, just not as a main part of the game