Please reduce creep snowballing

[Baggins]

So, I feel as if the creep snowballing (piling up of tanks and mass other amounts of creeps) in one lane WITHOUT a suppressor being destroyed is completely preposterous and cumbersome. The creeps manage to push into my team's base through the first base tower and can't be stopped until reaching the artifact, and during this time, my team was busy pushing mid after we killed the entire enemy team. The fact that if one or two creep waves can join up and push a whole lane singlehandedly is insane because sometimes there is no option for being able to push it back at the time when it is needed. I will agree that it is nice when it is on your side, but when it isn't its just plain obnoxious. I would like at least something to be done about this, because these can completely turn the tides of the battle, and it is not something that can be controlled, it seems as if some game, one of the 2 side's creeps just seem to push better than the others (even when it is 5v5). I don't know a fix for anything like this, but the problem itself is still there. I am not entirely sure if this is intended, but I sure hope not because the mass creep waves (although hilarious to look at) are very deadly. Most notably, there was a game today where I was fighting off one lane with 4 ultras, 2 tanks, and a whole boatload of other creeps in it at once, it was just plain ridiculous...

[Nuparu]

Just get explosive retrofit or an int aoe caster to kill the creeps every once in a while. It always works for me :)

 

But yeah, I really wish they could fix this, but I have a feeling it just comes with the accelerated creep timer. :/

[Eliwan]

This was a problem even with the 60-second creep spawn, it just happened so much less because of the timing.

 

Maybe the time between creeps could be increased to 40 seconds? d=

[Rem]

It actually is completely controllable, and an excellent tactic to use against an enemy team. Set up a super creep wave then push a diferent lane, and or defend your own base against their push.

 

 

I hate to say it but this really is a l2p moment.

[akanna]

It actually is completely controllable, and an excellent tactic to use against an enemy team. Set up a super creep wave then push a diferent lane, and or defend your own base against their push.

 

 

I hate to say it but this really is a l2p moment.

 

While I agree that you can control this to your advantage, its not always caused on purpose really, it kinda just happens because the spot where creeps battle isnt fixed anymore and so a wave will sometimes get reinforcements before the other wave, and a snowball just naturally occurs

 

I think everyone has seen a super wave that has like 4 tanks and 20 ranged units seriously messing up towers before, but it wasnt something that was planned per say, it just kinda happened while ppl were busy with teamfights due to the games internal pathing, and target prioritization.

 

I will say tho that Im not entirely sure the 2 sides are completely even. I have entered TM and afkd for a few hours before to test it (while I did something else) and the protoss side always won. Its possible I just didnt do it enough times and it was a fluke (I only did it for like 4/5 games and they were on diff days) but it should be 50 50 if its perfectly balanced, so there really should have been 1 zerg win in there somewhere

[Baggins]

I know how to counter it, and I know how to do it, I just find it stupid, its not that hard to fight back as long as no heroes are there, but the fact that it happens is still stupid in my mind.

 

I understand it is a tactic, but the fact that it can destroy an enemy lane completely is uncalled for and unneeded, if you need to push a lane PUSH LIKE A MAN, don't be a punk and set up your creeps to do your own work. I find that creeps are supposed to be there to give EXP and push WITH heroes, not by themselves in the stead of heroes.

 

If you think it is noobish to ask for such a reasonable request, I seriously do not believe anything you have to say is true, because this is definitely a problem for anyone, I know how to manage it, but its just plain wrong to have to buy an item or have a hero, who will most likely be needed in a team fight, so I don't think this is something that should be able to happen.

 

EDIT: just saw Akanna's post

 

Thats interesting, because for me it seems that zerg is almost more powerful at times. But, if it was supposed to be matched evenly, the lanes should not progress at all (one factor is the terrain for sure) and another factor is most likely the pathing of the creeps (if they walk around tower or something). Otherwise, it should be evenly balanced. The one reason it happens is that one race pushes to a tower, has 1 and 1/2 waves killed by the tower, and the next full wave comes and finishes it off with no losses, and the tower helps with the next wave, then another wave comes up, and it progresses that way, gaining creeps per wave (not a doubling growth, but a growth that is directly related to the amount that is already in wave).

[akanna]

EDIT: just saw Akanna's post

 

Thats interesting, because for me it seems that zerg is almost more powerful at times. But, if it was supposed to be matched evenly, the lanes should not progress at all (one factor is the terrain for sure) and another factor is most likely the pathing of the creeps (if they walk around tower or something). Otherwise, it should be evenly balanced. The one reason it happens is that one race pushes to a tower, has 1 and 1/2 waves killed by the tower, and the next full wave comes and finishes it off with no losses, and the tower helps with the next wave, then another wave comes up, and it progresses that way, gaining creeps per wave (not a doubling growth, but a growth that is directly related to the amount that is already in wave).

 

Yeah I was surprised too bc the zerg always seem stronger when I am playing, plus I didnt actually expect there to be a winner

but I guess it makes sense because 1 side has to win every battle, so it would slowly change up where the fights occur on the sides when a survivor keeps moving if you think about it, it probably all came down to target priorities and pathing

 

Like I said it was probably a fluke that toss won those, if I did it again it may be all zerg

I suppose the easiest way to know is to get a bunch of people to test it tho

[Rem]

Personally never seen toss win a tm before, but i haven't let it play out that long in ages, Let it run for 6 hrs at work once and their still wasn't a winner although zerg had done more dmg.

 

 

So the fact that its an effective tactic if your to lazy to combat it early where 2-3 seconds will make the difference makes it stupid? Seems more like the lazyness is making you stupid.

 

And yes forcing the other team to make a choice and either react to your team engaging you in a teamfight or allowing you to take daggoth or another lane or sending someone to protect your base and counter the trap the other team set seems to be something you disapprove of. Sadly aos does incorporate some elements of strategy as opposed to button mashing. Or mouse macros for the exceptionally lazy ;)

 

Yes the creep waves can stack on their own, but if you actually pay attention to your minimap you can see it start to happen, there's enough time to deal with those before their inside your base or even at your towers without missing a teamfight.

[Midknight]

I've seen other games where the tower can target multiple creeps at a time (but still only single heroes) to help clear up super-waves. Another game had a damage aura on the towers. I'd be relatively easy to set something like that in place and scale it (ie. second tower hits 2 creeps, third tower hits 4 creeps, main tower hits 6 creeps) or expand the radius of the damage aura. But this is also a strategic aspect of the game; an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[Baggins]

Well, my biggest problem with it is that there is no way of getting there quickly, I would rather have this stay and have a permanent tele to anywhere (like the talent, but cannot be removed, or always available) maybe replace return with it to make it a cd based tele (yes there is a talent skill, but I prefer it to be available no matter what talent tree I use), because for me, return is a bit annoying since there is no CD, I propose turning that into the utility talent skill, but with a shorter cd. I like midnight's idea, but really only on the base (tier 3 towers) and the artifact, which brings up a whole other debate. yes, the multi target towers would be MUCH better, especially with the artifact, since that would make up for the loss of the 2 towers for one supertower that can attack multiple targets.

 

So, maybe changing the aim of this thread slightly, the best way would be either find a way to reduce creep snowballing, or add a better defense to tier 3 towers and that would make the artifact need a buff equal to the tower buff too. So, I would say one of the 2, I actually like the 2nd one better, because that would make the game work better, and besides, I've been meaning to start a thread about the artifact needing a multi-target attack but deals slightly less damage than currently, or it can attack one target for full damage (ie hero).

[akanna]

I've seen other games where the tower can target multiple creeps at a time (but still only single heroes) to help clear up super-waves. Another game had a damage aura on the towers. I'd be relatively easy to set something like that in place and scale it (ie. second tower hits 2 creeps, third tower hits 4 creeps, main tower hits 6 creeps) or expand the radius of the damage aura. But this is also a strategic aspect of the game; an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Well, my biggest problem with it is that there is no way of getting there quickly, I would rather have this stay and have a permanent tele to anywhere (like the talent, but cannot be removed, or always available) maybe replace return with it to make it a cd based tele (yes there is a talent skill, but I prefer it to be available no matter what talent tree I use), because for me, return is a bit annoying since there is no CD, I propose turning that into the utility talent skill, but with a shorter cd. I like midnight's idea, but really only on the base (tier 3 towers) and the artifact, which brings up a whole other debate. yes, the multi target towers would be MUCH better, especially with the artifact, since that would make up for the loss of the 2 towers for one supertower that can attack multiple targets.

 

So, maybe changing the aim of this thread slightly, the best way would be either find a way to reduce creep snowballing, or add a better defense to tier 3 towers and that would make the artifact need a buff equal to the tower buff too. So, I would say one of the 2, I actually like the 2nd one better, because that would make the game work better, and besides, I've been meaning to start a thread about the artifact needing a multi-target attack but deals slightly less damage than currently, or it can attack one target for full damage (ie hero).

 

Going off of these 2, I agree that it would be nice if towers had better CC ability

Especially the artifact and T3 towers

 

You dont even have to push all the T3's to win, you can leave 1-2 up and the snowball from 1 side is more than enough to win the game

In the later game you literally have to have someone perma camping the base on creep defense once the snowballing starts (limiting your teamfight power), and its really hard to counter push before people spawn after a team whipe due to the sheer number of creeps in the way.

 

Im all for multishot on towers, its kind of bs how easily creeps can take towers these days, and how many games are won simply because you cant kill the creeps fast enough....

 

in all honesty the game is usually won because 1312312312 creeps flooded your base and killed the artifact while enemy heros kept you pinned in the spawn pool or busy in teamfights. Ive easily seen more than 60/70 flood into a base before, its really unfair how much they stack in the end. If you die or are busy in a teamfight, and they get a minute of free reign, the game is over, and a lot of the time even if youre all alive you simply cant kill them fast enough because its neverending. When you combine this kind of stacking with heros like unix and MK you feel like you need a team of 5 nulls to have even a chance of defending towers sometimes

[Qlx]

Would it be wrong to say that the amount of creep spawning should be decreased, parallel to the time it took?

Also, once you have pushed mid the other lines are basically just a matter of time. Creeps tend to go help their "mates" and leave their lines undefended.

Besides, the amount of creep spawning should be reduced for every person staying in game.

Say -7% creep for every stayer (lolll) Or +7% for every leaver.

[Harvest]

this snowballing shap is really nice vs idiots who like to stay in 2v5s

[Ironsights]

A pile of creeps is meaningless to a leveled hero, so if you pay attention to your laens this never becoems a problem. However, this does produce the effect of a team that is too focused on oen lane potentially losing other laens either to creeps alone or a solo "backdoor" type attack.

 

Basically, it generates depth and strategy. I see no problem with the current creep mechanics.

[FruitNinja]

The simplest way to counteract it would be to reduce creep DPS so that it doesn't happen as fast, but it can never be truly fixed due to how creep waves spawn in general.